M490 sound system operation specifics question

[atmorris]

Does anyone know exactly how the front speaker/door speaker M490 system is piped in these cars? What I mean is :

a) Do the 5 1/4" door speakers, 4" midrange dash speakers, and 3/4" tweeters (dash also) act as one "set" of component speakers driving off a single set of left and right channels? Then, the second set of channels are reserved for the rear storage compartment speakers?

OR.....

B) Do the dash 4" and 3/4" drive off one set of channels, and the door 5 1/4" mid-bass speakers drive off the second set ?

c) In either case - where are the crossovers located ? Are they built into the amp, the speakers, or on a separate circuit mounted somewhere ? Where?

I ask in order to understand if the dash and door speakers can simply be replaced with coaxials, PNP kit added to the rear, and a separate Kenwood KSC-SW1 subwoofer added behind/under/between the seats to improve the bass response.

[jhall299]

If your M490 amp says 4X40 on the label then one channel drives the front speakers and the second drives the doors. The only crossover I am aware of is on the front speaker plates where there is a crossover between the 4" and the 3/4 tweeter. I doubt there is a crossover in the AMP and I suspect the door speakers are fed all frequencies. I know there are no crossovers in the doors. If you add the PNP kit in this configuration you need to drive it off of the head unit. On my '00 986, I bought a 6X40 996 amp on ebay for $50 and drive the PNP from it.

Jon

[Q-Ship986]

Andy, if your '03 is like mine with a CDR23 and MOST M490 system, the amp is apparently a 6-channel. I say this because:

1. I added the PNP rear speaker kit and wired directly into the amp. The fader then worked between the dash speakers and rear deck. Prior to adding the rear speakers, the fader simply subtracted volume from the front when dialed toward the rear.

2. Essentially, the output from the door speakers seems entirely volume dependent. Meaning, nothing perceptible seems to happen with their output as you dial fader front/rear. I think they just boom at whatever volume you've dialed in.

I have had the same questions as you about where the determination is made within the audio system about what the output is from the door speakers. I think with this custom-designed MOST system, it's possible that the amp decides what signal gets sent to the door speakers. If you get an answer somewhere else, please circle back here and let us know.

--Brian

Edited May 12, 2006 by Q-Ship986

[Q-Ship986]

Another thread going here: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9187 also addresses the amp and door speaker issue. --Brian

Edited May 12, 2006 by Q-Ship986

[atmorris]

Another thread going here: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9187 also addresses the amp and door speaker issue. --Brian

Will do Brian. I asked this same question on the Becker board this morning. I'll be checking in there next.

If I can determine that the feed to the door speakers contains all frequencies, then I'm going to replace them with GOOD 5 1/4" coaxials and add the Kenwood KSC-SW1 subwoofer behind/under/between the seats for bass. Between this change and the rear speaker kit addition, I think this will drasticaly improve the audio, even without changing the head unit.

BTW...Harvery's kit has pretty **** good speakers in it out of the box. I found nothing with better specs for anything even close to a reasonable price.

[Nick_USA]

I agree with andy the Harvey kit is the best value for money

[atmorris]

I agree with andy the Harvey kit is the best value for money

For posterity purposes here...The Harvey we have all been talking about in this thread is Harvey Peck of PNParts. You can find his kits on EBay, or you can contact him through email at PNParts@comcast.net

Harvey also makes some really nice sill plates. All his stuff is top shelf quality, and he's a great guy to deal with. :thumbup:

[atmorris]

Update: I started this project over the weekend. PNP's rear speaker kit went in without a hitch and made the whole system sound better right off the bat. I started to replace the dash speakers with the 4" Infinity reference coaxials and ran into a problem with the speaker depth. The NEW model Infinity 4012i states its mounting depth at 1.64" or ~41mm, so I thought the older model I had would fit (4001i). I had purchased them for my daughter's car 2 years ago and never used them. Problem is that the older speaker's mounting depth is more like 2" or 53mm depth and won't fit in the space thats there. The OEM speaker was about 46mm mount depth and, after much measuring, I believe that the mounting depth of any new speaker has to be under 50mm to clear. My car is a 2003.

I did find that the hack to modify the existing speaker basket/bracket and use it as a mount for new speakers works fine. I actually did it just a bit different than the current hack describes, rather than cut off the mounting ears from the new speakers, I used a dremel tool to notch the mounting bracket out for them, then crimped the tabs over and under the mounting bracket flange to secure the speaker. I then hit them with a small dab of hot glue just to be sure and dampen any potential rattle. Worked like a charm and they didn't rattle - they just didn't fit !.

Last night I double checked mounting depths, then ordered sets of MB Quart DKD110's (4" coaxial) for the dash and DKE116 (6 1/2" coaxial) for the doors. I ordered the 6 1/2" speaker model because I have read, in a couple of different places, that the MB Quart Discus series 6 1/2" speakers will fit in the unmodified 5 1/2" enclosures because they are designed much shallower than other speakers. I checked, and their mounting depth IS the same as most 5 1/2" speakers.

I'll let you know how they sound, and if the DKE116 sounds clear or muddy in the doors since it is a coaxial and not a dedicated mid-bass speaker.

[mee]

Andy M,

How'd it go? I am thinking of just doing the door speakers to something better. What depths/specs did you find for the door speakers? I was also considering doing some "exploratory surgery" to find out what space/size I have to work with. Is removing the door panels a PITA? Any advice/suggestions appreciated.

Thanks!

[atmorris]

Andy M,

How'd it go? I am thinking of just doing the door speakers to something better. What depths/specs did you find for the door speakers? I was also considering doing some "exploratory surgery" to find out what space/size I have to work with. Is removing the door panels a PITA? Any advice/suggestions appreciated.

Thanks!

It went fine mee. I put the Harvey Penick rear speaker kit in, updated the dash speakers to MB Quart DKD110's, and put MB Quart DKE116 (6 1/2" coaxial) in the doors. The bass response is clean and strong, the system sounds 100x better than the stock drivers without changing the head or amp. With the top up it sounds super. With the top down, it still sounds very good, but the amp's limitations come into play a lot more. I would say it was well worth the investment in hardware and time. I documented the whole project (complete with pics) and uploaded it to the DIY section.

Depth on the door speakers wasn't an issue for me because I removed the stock tuned enclosures and mounted the speakers in mounting baffles I made to fit with the stock door panels. I can tell you I do not see how a 6 1/2" driver could be properly mounted in the stock enclosure, although some say they have done it.

Removing the door panels is no big deal as long as you research it before hand and take your time. If you rush, your likely to screw something up. I also documented this process in the articly I wrote.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613

Edited September 18, 2006 by Andy_M

[rsfeller]

so the stock amp in a 1997 is a 4 channel running the front, correct? If I add rear speakers I can run those off power from the head from what I read in this post? The head is most likly also a 4 channel power amp and I could pick up the rear two channels off of it?

Not looking for a major upgrade and the desire to put in a 40x6 amp...just some music to the rear would add to the sound for sure.

[atmorris]

so the stock amp in a 1997 is a 4 channel running the front, correct? If I add rear speakers I can run those off power from the head from what I read in this post? The head is most likly also a 4 channel power amp and I could pick up the rear two channels off of it?

Not looking for a major upgrade and the desire to put in a 40x6 amp...just some music to the rear would add to the sound for sure.

I believe that is accurate. In a 4x40 system, I believe the PNP kit drives off the head unit.

A word on this approach though....the system you are describing will be ok with the top up, and will sound a bit better, but will be pretty severely under powered for top down volume of any appreciable level.

[Westcoaster]

So just so I have this all straight...

For a MY03, the amp is likely a 6x40w unit (where is this label to check?)

The dash is a 4-1/2 coaxial (strange mine looks like the cover has room for speakers side by side?)

The door has a tuned enclosure that holds a 5-1/4 coax (need to remove the enclosure to go larger?)

What type of connector is required to access the third (rear) cahnnel off of this amp?

I already have nice 4" mids, 1" carbon tweeters and 6-1/2" mid bass speakers available for the front and a great set of 4x6 coax speakers for rear fill. :)

Thanks!

[Chris_in_NH]

So just so I have this all straight...

For a MY03, the amp is likely a 6x40w unit (where is this label to check?)

The dash is a 4-1/2 coaxial (strange mine looks like the cover has room for speakers side by side?)

The door has a tuned enclosure that holds a 5-1/4 coax (need to remove the enclosure to go larger?)

What type of connector is required to access the third (rear) cahnnel off of this amp?

I already have nice 4" mids, 1" carbon tweeters and 6-1/2" mid bass speakers available for the front and a great set of 4x6 coax speakers for rear fill. :)

Thanks!

the dash speakers are side-by-side. underneath the larger circle on the speaker cover there is a mid, underneath the smaller circle on the speaker cover there is a tweeter. however, since my new speakers had the tweeter as part of the mid speaker, i just disconnected the factory tweeter but it is still in there.

i modified my 'tuned-port' enclosure in the doors with a dremel tool to fit a 6.5" speaker. it's not pretty, but it works well.

i'm not sure about the connector for the amp. i only have a 4-channel amp. but many people just connect the rear speakers to the back of the radio head unit, and in that case it is a connector similar to the iPod cable/AUX-in, etc. you can buy it from Becker.

[Cassiebox]

So just so I have this all straight...

For a MY03, the amp is likely a 6x40w unit (where is this label to check?)

On the amp itself. You'll have to unbolt it from the firewall (or use a small mirror) but it will tell you the part # (like 986.xxx.xxx.xx) and say either 4x40 or 6x40 in big letters)

The dash is a 4-1/2 coaxial (strange mine looks like the cover has room for speakers side by side?)

Custom made mid range range speaker (almost 4.25") and bracket combo w/ a .75" tweeter next to it)

The door has a tuned enclosure that holds a 5-1/4 coax (need to remove the enclosure to go larger?)

What type of connector is required to access the third (rear) cahnnel off of this amp?

If you buy the kit from PNP (Harvey Peck - harveypnp at comcast dot net) and tell him what you have, he'll give you the extra harness to plug right into the amp and not the head unit

I already have nice 4" mids, 1" carbon tweeters and 6-1/2" mid bass speakers available for the front and a great set of 4x6 coax speakers for rear fill. :)

Thanks!

Good luck and enjoy!

[rsfeller]

so the stock amp in a 1997 is a 4 channel running the front, correct? If I add rear speakers I can run those off power from the head from what I read in this post? The head is most likly also a 4 channel power amp and I could pick up the rear two channels off of it?

Not looking for a major upgrade and the desire to put in a 40x6 amp...just some music to the rear would add to the sound for sure.

I believe that is accurate. In a 4x40 system, I believe the PNP kit drives off the head unit.

A word on this approach though....the system you are describing will be ok with the top up, and will sound a bit better, but will be pretty severely under powered for top down volume of any appreciable level.

thanks. I'll most likly approach this with a 6x40 system down the road, there are a few on ebay I've seen. For now I just wanted to know if I went the PNP route I could at least get it running and spend more money down the road.

Are there wires already running through the tunnel that mount up to the PNP kit or is that part of the kit? Many car builders have the generic wiring harnesses dropped in all trim levels and just add the components as needed. Just curious.

[Cassiebox]

The PNP kit has the wiring harness you need to wire from the speakers up to the head unit and then an add on harness to get you from head unit to AMP in trunk. So you'll be fine to run them off the head unit for now and then also have the harness when you upgrade to a 6x40 AMP. Good luck!

[rsfeller]

The PNP kit has the wiring harness you need to wire from the speakers up to the head unit and then an add on harness to get you from head unit to AMP in trunk. So you'll be fine to run them off the head unit for now and then also have the harness when you upgrade to a 6x40 AMP. Good luck!

Great info from good experience. Thanks.

[Westcoaster]

i'm not sure about the connector for the amp. i only have a 4-channel amp. but many people just connect the rear speakers to the back of the radio head unit, and in that case it is a connector similar to the iPod cable/AUX-in, etc. you can buy it from Becker.

So Chris (or any body who knows), is there an auxilary connector on the back of the CDR23 that allows the connection if an external device (like a MP3 player)? I don't have an iPod, just a generic MP3 player.

This "cable/AUX-in" connector... from Becker? can you provide a link?

Thanks!

[Cassiebox]

According to the Becker site - http://www.beckerautosound.com

the CDR23 does not have an AUX-in. Sounds like FM Modulator is your best bet. You might want to search their message board for other ideas or solutions as well:

http://beckerautosound.com/beckerboard/