Intermediate shaft, bolt failure?

[hooper4s]

Ok, i was getting emotional.

Motor did not blow up in the visual sense, but started to make a noise like someone drop a large bag of coins in the dryer! Nursed it home and car was towed to dealer.

Have an 03 c4s. 13,000 miles, 6 speed, built march of 2003.

Was told "bolt holding down intermediate shaft failed, causing shaft to come loose" Well i am sure everyone can picture and hear the motor screaming for mercy as i was driving it home that day. Lucky for me the car is under warranty.

As a side note, i did have a "RMS" leak 3 months prior to this occurance. (11,000 miles) Dealer did change to "new & improved" with special torx bolts? Was someting mis aligned on replacement?

Car is a daily driver. One time on track. as per mechanic "electronic memory showed no over revving or red-lining of motor.

Has anyone hear of anyting like this happening?

I am very very disappointed and have lost complete faith in Porsche.

Sell or hold? Might be difficult to sell with this history??

a sad hooper4s

Edited April 29, 2006 by hooper4s

[Alan C.]

You have to ask yourself how many engines have been built and how many had the same failure? Not many I would guess.

With a new engine you start form zero, not a bad thing. I wouldn't sell.

[chance2001]

You have to ask yourself how many engines have been built and how many had the same failure? Not many I would guess.

With a new engine you start form zero, not a bad thing. I wouldn't sell.

I've seen Porsche Dealer rebuilds and you wouldn't know it from the factory. New engine, man. Don't even worry about it. I know you're stressed, as would I be, but you're going to have a new engine. As long as they do all the work and you keep all the papers, you're fine.

Enjoy your new car.

[nick49]

I know exactly how you feel, my '99 Carrera dropped a sleeve and I had a new motor put in earlier this week. Tech said the new motor had larger intermediate shaft bearings like the newest M96 version and all the latest internal upgrades. My car feels brand new again, and I am happy to say Porsche and my dealer stepped up to the plate and helped me out with this issue on my long out of warrenty car. KEEP THE FAITH!

[Tool Pants]

I saw the same thing on a 2003 Boxster. The end of the shaft where the bolt is broke.

[hooper4s]

I saw the same thing on a 2003 Boxster. The end of the shaft where the bolt is broke.

That is exactly what the dealer said; is that they have seen the intermediate shaft break more often on Boxster's not 996. FACT same motor on Boxster and 996 models. One has to wonder??

What function does the intermediate shaft provide for the motor? counter balance for crank?

Given the history of my car now; would you buy it for lets say $63,000.00 or so given its great condition and low miles? Be honest? I would not. (only someone looking for a deal!)

any TSB you are aware of addressing this issue? along with RMS, this bolt issue and some 996 motors cylinder sleeve failures (particular cynlinders 2 or 5) is this motor just ENGINEERED poorly?? Time for Porsche to come clean on this?

GT2, GT3 & TURBO do not have these issues for the simple fact of their motors are different.

Perplex...is the simple word i can think of that reflects my state of mind!

[Kim]

Given the history of my car now; would you buy it for lets say $63,000.00 or so given its great condition and low miles? Be honest? I would not. (only someone looking for a deal!)

If you get a new factory motor, installed by Porsche mechanics .... then the car will not be the same one that has "history" of engine failure. That old engine is gone, having suffered a failure rare enough so that most on this board probably have never heard of it.

Chassis in the great shape you describe, plus a brand new motor .... would make it, in my mind, much more desirable than an equal car with the original motor if I were shopping .... assuming you had the paper work to support the qualified installation of a factory new engine.

If you value it less yourself, then some lucky buyer will probably get a great deal.

[eastriver]

pcna will cover everything and u end up with a new engine. nothing to complain about :)

it's scary to see story like this for ppl like me with a out-of-warranty 996 on the road.

nick49, what's the trick? pcna fixed a MY99 car for free? unbeliveable. any more inside story can you share? thanks

[Scouser]

pcna will cover everything and u end up with a new engine. nothing to complain about :)

Is this true. PCNA not PNA. Does your Porsche Motor Club membership cover you for your engine?

Or is this just a typo.

[norton-sp]

Perplex...is the simple word i can think of that reflects my state of mind!

know exactly how you feel..i spent money on a car that is normally out of reach for people that earn the money that i do...and then i had to have a new engine and pay for it myself...i must admit, i have lost faith.

[Q-Ship986]

pcna will cover everything and u end up with a new engine. nothing to complain about :)

Is this true. PCNA not PNA. Does your Porsche Motor Club membership cover you for your engine?

Or is this just a typo.

PCNA is Porsche Cars North America. PCNA is the sole authorized importer of Porsche vehicles in the US and Canada. Essentially, they are the entity that buys vehicles/parts from Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG (PAG) or one of its subsidiaries, imports them into North America, and distributes same to North American dealers. PCNA is the provider in the US and Canada of the express warranty on new vehicles and so-called CPO (certified pre-owned) vehicles. PCNA may sometimes be abbreviated PNA.

Sorry to hijack this thread further, but I found this org chart in PAG's last annual report:

Scouser, you may be thinking of PCA, Porsche Club of America, which is our membership group.

--Brian

Edited May 4, 2006 by Q-Ship986

[nick49]

pcna will cover everything and u end up with a new engine. nothing to complain about :)

it's scary to see story like this for ppl like me with a out-of-warranty 996 on the road.

nick49, what's the trick? pcna fixed a MY99 car for free? unbeliveable. any more inside story can you share? thanks

[hooper4s]

Perplex...is the simple word i can think of that reflects my state of mind!

know exactly how you feel..i spent money on a car that is normally out of reach for people that earn the money that i do...and then i had to have a new engine and pay for it myself...i must admit, i have lost faith.

what was your particular situation? what yr & model is your ride?

[norton-sp]

Perplex...is the simple word i can think of that reflects my state of mind!

know exactly how you feel..i spent money on a car that is normally out of reach for people that earn the money that i do...and then i had to have a new engine and pay for it myself...i must admit, i have lost faith.

what was your particular situation? what yr & model is your ride?

i posted a topic about my little personal porsche desaster a few weeks ago:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8625

[a54f100]

Ok, i was getting emotional.

Motor did not blow up in the visual sense, but started to make a noise like someone drop a large bag of coins in the dryer! Nursed it home and car was towed to dealer.

Have an 03 c4s. 13,000 miles, 6 speed, built march of 2003.

Was told "bolt holding down intermediate shaft failed, causing shaft to come loose" Well i am sure everyone can picture and hear the motor screaming for mercy as i was driving it home that day. Lucky for me the car is under warranty.

As a side note, i did have a "RMS" leak 3 months prior to this occurance. (11,000 miles) Dealer did change to "new & improved" with special torx bolts? Was someting mis aligned on replacement?

Car is a daily driver. One time on track. as per mechanic "electronic memory showed no over revving or red-lining of motor.

Has anyone hear of anyting like this happening?

I am very very disappointed and have lost complete faith in Porsche.

Sell or hold? Might be difficult to sell with this history??

a sad hooper4s

My 1999 Cab had the same failure at 48,000 miles. Out of warranty and now I'm out of luck. I wish I'd never have purchased the car. I'm so far underwater on this thing. I'm now on a search for a wrecked 996 to pull a motor from since I'm not giving Porsche another 12K.

[PTEC]

I would say there is no chance the RMS repair caused this failure. The bearing cover for the intermediate shaft is usually replaced during a rear main seal leak repair but its indexed and can only be installed in one way. I would say you're overreacting to say you've completely lost faith in Porsche. Do you think this is the first Porsche part to ever fail?

This shouldnt devalue the car as quite a few 996s had engines replaced due to crankshaft to case half gap tolerances.... so its not like you've got the only 996 ever to have an engine replaced. I dont think you'll have a problem selling the car as long as you keep copies of your repair orders and are outright with the info when you go to sell. Theres no reason to sell the car just because of this incident, you'll have a brand new engine and everything will be back to just how it was before you had this problem. The only difference is in your head.

[alan911sc]

I'm also looking at a 1999 with about 47k on it and now I'm thinking potential engine failure, PCNA replaced an engine on a car out of warranty? I definetly would want some details, some obscure recall or something?

[Loren]

I'm also looking at a 1999 with about 47k on it and now I'm thinking potential engine failure, PCNA replaced an engine on a car out of warranty? I definetly would want some details, some obscure recall or something?

Yes, the rear engine cover has not changed. Only the widebody (C4S, TT, GT2) won't fit.

[jeneric996]

That is weird, my 2003 996 C-2, built in 2/2003 suffered the same fate at 23,000 miles. No DE or track events, just a semi-daily driver to and from work. The intermediate shaft broke and made the initial grinding noise followed by a metal bolt-noise bouncing around the engine. When I parked it, most of my oil leaked out at the front of the engine. My new-car warranty expires in 6-months, but I lucky bought a 7/70.

This happened two weeks ago and I just got it back last Wednesday. So far so good, but the 2000-mile break-in is painful.

For information, the dealer said it costed $11,000 and would have cost me $13,000 if it were out of warranty.

PCNA will not extend the warranty because they paid for this reconditioned one. If I or a third-party warranty provider paid for it, then I would have the 2-year warranty on the engine.

I got a "reconditioned" engine with lot of new parts and the oil cap with the picture of the oil can like the 997s and not tilted. I see a built dated of 28/05/06; I assume this means May 28, 2006. However, I also see another part near the water pump that has the number "1", a circle date with an arrow pointing to a number, and "06" on the other side of the circle -- possibly January __, 2006.

The engine number now is #M96/ 03AT66566XXX, the old number is #M96/ 0366316XXX.

I bet the "AT" stands for replacement or reconditioned.

[pjslowik]

You have to ask yourself how many engines have been built and how many had the same failure?

Funny! I had two replacements on my new '03 Boxster. One at 3,000 mi and another at 25,000 mi. These definitely suffer from a design flaw. Kinda reminds me of GM's attempt at an alum/silicone bore engine in the Vega. Then I think of Porsche's failed attempt at Indy a few years back - broken engine. Now I'm regretting the purchase. They just want to get me through the warranty period then I'm on my own.

Good luck!

[threeOh]

This is not an uncommon occurence. Though rms is in the lead, it would not surprize me if intermediate shaft failures are number two on the engine replacement list. I'm certainly familiar with it having had my engine replaced.

We drive mass produced cars that are as sophisticated, if not more so, than exotica. These things happen. The likelihood of it happening with a new or rebuilt engine are slim. If you like the car, I would not loose any sleep over what happened.

Also don't draw any distinctions between rebuilt and new. P is not consistent with engine numbering and can use new engine numbers on rebuilds and, I believe, visa-versa. Even the dealers don't know what they get.

In 18 years of driving P's, I've had two major issues (whether they be electrical or mechanical). During the same period we've had 7 BMW's or MB's. The stack of shop orders on these looks like a major metropolitan yellow pages. Its part of price we pay for wanting the feel these cars deliver. Otherwise we'd all be driving Lexus.

[Rick Zook]

Newbe here. 2003 911 64,000mi

I was warned about ISB failures at my 60K service but was told if you change the oil every 5k miles the bearing isn't sitting in dirty oil and the probability of failure is less. Last week I parked in my garage in the desert (103 deg outside), shut it down, went inside for a few moments, came back and all the oil was on the garage floor, leaking from the front. There was no warning noise, engine temp had been normal for the entire drive. I thought it was a plug, or clamp, or even the seal. Turns out one of the three bolts holding the ISB bearing flange was sheered off, one was loose and the other holding the flange alone. Most of the bearing was in parts sitting in the pan. I have no idea how it was still running without making any noise.

Now the good news. I have an after market warranty that covers this, and while they are doing it I also needed a clutch, which they will install for parts only.

Question for you kind folks. What do I need to know about the new engine. Do they only come from Porsche? Does Porsche offer a rebuilt engine? Are there warning signs when my insurance company goes shopping? Is the new engine warrantied? How do I reset the odometer? (just kidding)

Any info is appriciated.

-Rick Zook

Edited August 26, 2010 by Rick Zook

[phillipj]

Glad to hear you have a warranty!!! My old 996 cracked a head and I had no warranty:unsure: No I will never have a Porsche without a warranty...

Hopefully you will get a reman engine from Porsche.. Thay have strenghened the IMS and made other upgrades. They come with a 2 year warranty. It is highly unlikely that you will get a "new" engine. That just isn't how Porsche does things.

I would say to insist on a reman form Porsche. The price is comparable to a used engine (from a wreck). I would doubt the insurance company would go this route.

Good luck and you will be back behind the wheel in no time..

:cheers:

[Cloudsurfer]

The 03 Boxster S that I have, which I have stuffed an LN based X51 3.8 into, had the IMS bearing shear its retaining bolt. When I separated the gearbox and engine, the end of the bolt (with nut still on) was sitting in the bellhousing. Shockingly, the cams are still in time and it doesn't appear that any valve to piston contact occurred, so at some point I'll likely go through the engine and re-build it. Many others I've seen have had more disastrous ends.

From the sound of it, yours may be saveable. Pull the flange off the IMS, and inspect the bearing. Hypothetically, all the metal that was created should be inside the tube, and NOT elsewhere in the engine. If there is metal throughout the engine, well that's game over. If not, see if you can remove the outer bearing race from the IMS shaft, without damaging the shaft (if it's not already damaged). If you can't do this, it's game over. There is no way to remove the IMS shaft without tearing the engine down. If you can cleanly remove the outer bearing race, put the engine at TDC (using the front pulley and fixing pin), and then check the cam timing by pulling the green seals in the heads. Visually, you can see if all 4 cams are lined up straight, as the marks should be vertical. You don't necessarily need the timing tools to at least eyeball this. If all the above is good, hypothetically the engine could be saved by installing a new, upgraded bearing from LN, and verifying (with the timing tools) that the engine is in time.

As to a new motor from Porsche, dealers do not rebuild these. They get a reman motor from Porsche. Depending on luck, you may get a new motor, or it may be a reman. I'm not sure there's really any difference as to the internals, as they will have the newer IMS. You can tell a reman motor by the presence of "AT" in the serial #.

For those that don't know, the IMS shaft is geared at a 1:2 reduction from the crank and drives the cams and oil pump (at the front of the engine). It has nothing to do with balancing the engine. Unfortunately, in the M96/M97 engines it's a horrible design, with the front of the shaft supported by the oil pump housing (with no bearing) and the rear (which you see the flange of under the back of the crank where the flywheel attaches) sitting in a "sealed" ball bearing. Contrary to everyone's belief, this bearing does NOT receive pressure lubrication. It was designed to contain sealed bearing grease, but what happens is that engine oil washes the sealed lubricant away, and this is why the recommendation of more frequent oil changes does hold some water. The bearing in any motor after 05 is MUCH larger and uses a much larger bolt and nut to retain it to the flange. With the Series II cars that use the A96 engine, the IMS shaft was eliminated entirely.

[Rick Zook]

phillipj & cloudsurfer,

Thanks for your responses. The car is at an indepent repair shop and all signs are that they know their stuff. They told the insurance co it needed a new engine, but an agent has to verify this.

It amazes me Porsche would design this shaft with one end supported without a bearing, and the other a sealed bearing awash in oil.

I hope not, but if it turns out to be fixable should I install the British made ceramic bearing?

Thanks,

-Zook