Under performing seal

[Loren]

Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser).

Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 911 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this.

You can download the PDF version of the article here:

Under_performing_seal.pdf

[aracerx]

Hi Loren:

Cannot download. Can you PM the article to me?. thanks Mark

Edited October 18, 2005 by FORMULA

[Loren]

Yeah, I think there is an new IE bug with Acrobat. Seems after Microsoft's latest security update it won't let you view it in the browser. I normally use Firefox so I didn't notice it until now.

It should work if you save it to disk first though.

[JimPDX]

Hi Loren:

Cannot download. Can you PM the article to me?. thanks Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might want to try and save it to a directory first.

Then open Adobe.

With Adobe up on your screen go to file open and pull it up from the saved directory.

It worked for me.

BTW Thx Loren for the reprint. I think it places the issue in perspective reasonably well.

[cyclocross]

Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser).

Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 991 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this.

 

You can download the PDF version of the article here:

Under performing seal - Total 911 Magazine - October 2005

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Loren. Thank you for sharing the article. There is a major typo on page three: "The crankshaft, a two-piece affair, could also be split, re-aligned and bolted together with stronger bolts." Does the Mr. White really mean the crankcases or the crankshaft saddle?

In Paul Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" the author states that the 3.6 L motors from 2002 on have thicker main journals giving a more rigid crankshaft. Also, the gear box has an additional input shaft bearing next to the clutch to control vibrations. Is there any data that suggests the 2002 and newer models are less prone to RMS leaks?

[umn]

...

In Paul Frere's "Porsche 911 Story" the author states that the 3.6 L motors from 2002 on have thicker main journals giving a more rigid crankshaft.  Also, the gear box has an additional input shaft bearing next to the clutch to control vibrations.  Is there any data that suggests the 2002 and newer models are less prone to RMS leaks?

...

There is obviously no publicly available data on it, but if you talk to the guys at the factory, this seem to be the case. Particularly the third input shaft bearing has helped.

The 997 crankcase has an additional crankshaft bearing, which again seems to have improved things. And the new Aisin gearboxes have also been designed with the problem in mind.

However, all of these measures only incrementally alleviate the problem, none of them seem to have really nailed it.

Cheers

Uwe

[rattles]

Yeah, I think there is an new IE bug with Acrobat. Seems after Microsoft's latest security update it won't let you view it in the browser. I normally use Firefox so I didn't notice it until now.

It should work if you save it to disk first though.

Loren,

I am having problems opening it too. If I click on the link it takes me straight to a forum page which says I dont have permission to view the article.

Also I notice the skin has changed since you did your software upgrade and the link to change the skin is no longer active

[Loren]

Okay folks, sorry... should be working now.

[rattles]

Okay folks, sorry... should be working now.

Thanks, recd. OK now.

Will the skin selector be up and running again soon

[Loren]

Will the skin selector be up and running again soon

I hope so. That is covered in My Blog

[alexsee]

does new RMS resolve leak problem??

part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems?

[bob_911]

does new RMS resolve leak problem??

part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems?

Guten Tag,

i was surfin a bit in the internet to find some international information about the underperforming rear main seal, which i know as "undichter Kurbelwellen-Dichtring" or mostly called "Simmering" issue.

I own a 996 built in March 1999 about 100.000 kilometers. I have the fifth rear main seal. The last one is the "new Super-Duper Wellendichtring" from Cayenne. I have got it built in 4 weeks ago by my Porsche-Dealer.

and the car is leaking again!!!

The problem isnt solved, beleave me.

--bob

[Scouser]

Sheesh!

Believe it or not I only just got to know about this. I just heard about it on rennlist. Show you just how long I have been out of the loop.

[mystic996]

does new RMS resolve leak problem??

part number 997 101 212 00 (which i understand is adapted fm Cayenne). anyone with this new RMS continue to experience any problems?

Guten Tag,

i was surfin a bit in the internet to find some international information about the underperforming rear main seal, which i know as "undichter Kurbelwellen-Dichtring" or mostly called "Simmering" issue.

I own a 996 built in March 1999 about 100.000 kilometers. I have the fifth rear main seal. The last one is the "new Super-Duper Wellendichtring" from Cayenne. I have got it built in 4 weeks ago by my Porsche-Dealer.

and the car is leaking again!!!

The problem isnt solved, beleave me.

--bob

[mystic996]

O.K. I have a 99 C2 w 72K miles. The dealer pointed out the leak between the Engine and trans. "might be RMS".. Ya think so? Here is my question. If I plan on doing a new clutch within 15K miles, am I in danger of damaging anything if I wait? I read hear about people who go through 3 or 4 RMS's but I am not seeing anyone telling what the ramifications are of letting this slide. What if you never replace it? What will happen? Is part of this owners not being able to handle the thought of spending $$$ on their cars and seeing oil on the garage floor?

[Scouser]

No problems. You can let it leak forever without damage.

Even in the most extreme rare case (and I don;t know if this has ever happened) that the seal fell out, it won;t blow your engine up.

The seal is not like a plug. It doesn't hold the oil in per se, it just stops it weeping out the end of the block thru the main bearing. If it gell out its possible to get a lot of oil on your clutch and it would probably drip on your exhaust and cause a lot of smoke. But no catastrophic engine failure.

I drove around for thousands of miles between RMS fixes. In fact I had my 1st RMS done at 27k and my car has now done 52k and only just stopped leaking......I have been driving around leaking for years.

So hang in there until the clutch is done.

[Loren]

Could be the intermediate shaft seal too...

[D3DED]

Phil White has written an excellent article in the October 2005 issue of Total 911 Magazine. He discusses possible RMS causes including improper replacement techniques and has comments from RennTech.org Contributing Member Berny Goodheart (Scouser).

Thank you to Philip Raby at Total 911 magazine for allowing us to reproduce this.

You can download the PDF version of the article here:

Under_performing_seal.pdf

Hi fellas,

My mid life crisis just started leaking, 50k on a '99, No warranty but full OPC history.

Am i being unrealistic expecting porsche to replace the seal and bear the cost?

D3DED :oops:

[Loren]

IMHO... it will depend on your history. Number of previous RMS failures and/or related problems.

[Tool Pants]

Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back.

[bob_911]

Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back.

Hello again,

the new seal is leaking, i told you already a few days ago. my 996 has about 100.000 km or 62.000 miles and is from 1999. No warrenty or updated warrenty. But i have a full Porsche service history.

The news: Offer from Porsche: kompletely new machine for 50% cost (4500 Dollars)

This is very ok. Im looking forward to it. :jump:

--bob

[Loren]

Pictures of the Cayenne style seal are here. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...5&st=0entry24 The local dealer has put in a few. I am waiting to see if those cars come back.

Hello again,

the new seal is leaking, i told you already a few days ago. my 996 has about 100.000 km or 62.000 miles and is from 1999. No warrenty or updated warrenty. But i have a full Porsche service history.

The news: Offer from Porsche: kompletely new machine for 50% cost (4500 Dollars)

This is very ok. Im looking forward to it. :jump:

--bob

So, you are getting a new/exchange engine for half the cost?

Sounds like a very good deal to me. :beer:

[boxstermao]

hello,

ive been eyeing a 99C4 coupe with only 13,000kms on it. what consequences does the RMS have on a tiptronic tranny? :(

[juankimalo]

This fantastic article was translated into spanish by me, and posted in our spanish forum www.pasionporsche.com. Then Scouser (Bernie Goodheart) wrote this about the article:

There is a fix!

Yes incredible as it may seem it can be fixed.

If you have RMS problems DO NOT take to your OPC to fix as they will only use standard Porsche parts. Take it to an independent and ask them to order and fit a 996 GT3 Motorsport seal instead. Ask them to fit it in the crankshaft IN REVERSE!

I know this sounds hard to believe but it works. The GT3 Motorsport seal (not a Porsche standard part) is the same bore size as the 996/997 seal but has two protective flanges at the rear. If fitted in reverse the inner flange forces itself to flip backwards and touch the outer flange which is already forced onto the crank with a spring. This prevents any oil from possibly leaking even if the bore is out of tollerance.

This was done as an experiment on two cars and it works very well. Mine is next when it goes in for its service next month. But both cars had 4 RMS replacements and the motorsport seal fixed the problem. Both cars now running for almost a year after the seal was replaced and no oil leaks.

You should be aware that I have done a lot of research on the RMS problem. One thing is absolutely certain now, a faulty RMS cannot cause engine failure or have anything to do with it. A faulty IMS on the ither hand might indicate intermediate shaft problems which will probably leade to engine failure. However, even if the RMS in the 996 or Boxster actually fell out of the crank (extremely rare) it will not cause engine failure. All that will happen is that oil will leak into the bell housing (but not pour out, only slowly). However the leak will be worse than say a leaking RMS. It may be enough to cause clutch contamination. It is more likely that oil will drip onto your exhaust and cause smoking. This will cause alarm but it is not bad news.

So in summary, a leaking RMS is harmless but it is still not acceptable or desired. In most cases, if the replacement RMS is done correctly (and this is very rare) then it wont leak again.

Cheers

Edited May 4, 2006 by juankimalo

[ArneeA]

No problems. You can let it leak forever without damage.

Even in the most extreme rare case (and I don;t know if this has ever happened) that the seal fell out, it won;t blow your engine up.

The seal is not like a plug. It doesn't hold the oil in per se, it just stops it weeping out the end of the block thru the main bearing. If it gell out its possible to get a lot of oil on your clutch and it would probably drip on your exhaust and cause a lot of smoke. But no catastrophic engine failure.

I drove around for thousands of miles between RMS fixes. In fact I had my 1st RMS done at 27k and my car has now done 52k and only just stopped leaking......I have been driving around leaking for years.

So hang in there until the clutch is done.

Could be the intermediate shaft seal too...

If the ISS is leaking, is it acceptable to leave it leaking like the RMS until a clutch change is due?

I just saw a drop of oil in the garage floor. :cursing: But it's VERY little and I'm not too worried about it until my clutch is due IF it's the RMS. BUT if it's the ISS, is it a must-fix?