Reliability of 996 Engines

[c70Pete]

Yeah, the S2000 is no doubt a highly respectable and reliable machine, but it's kinda ugly and soulless too. And 240 bhp ain't 355. The 3.8 M96's bellow reminds me of a '55 300SL's. Nope, sorry: we're talking apples and oranges here. And don't even mention the baubles from Modena and Maranello; they're not in the same league either. My little green monster is my daily driver and grocery-shopping car as well.

well... hate to say it cause I love porsches but the S2000 is more reliable than your "S"... and at 1/3 rd the price its the bargain of the century... AND its a convertible.... ugly? depends on who you ask... but when you drive something with 355 hp its hard to appreciate a mere 240 hp...

[355bhp]

well... hate to say it cause I love porsches but the S2000 is more reliable than your "S"... and at 1/3 rd the price its the bargain of the century... AND its a convertible.... ugly? depends on who you ask... but when you drive something with 355 hp its hard to appreciate a mere 240 hp...

No doubt you're right, but I think I'm ready to accept a little pain for all that stimulation. See me if/when my IMS bearing lets go. Still friends? Cheers.

[c70Pete]

well... hate to say it cause I love porsches but the S2000 is more reliable than your "S"... and at 1/3 rd the price its the bargain of the century... AND its a convertible.... ugly? depends on who you ask... but when you drive something with 355 hp its hard to appreciate a mere 240 hp...

No doubt you're right, but I think I'm ready to accept a little pain for all that stimulation. See me if/when my IMS bearing lets go. Still friends? Cheers.

no worries :D

your IMS should be fine if its a 2006 or beyond... the IMS design is still not the best engineering but the 997S has the best implementation of it...

[355bhp]

no worries :D

your IMS should be fine if its a 2006 or beyond... the IMS design is still not the best engineering but the 997S has the best implementation of it...

It's an '05, and an early one at that, with a double-race IMS bearing, so I can't even replace it without tearing down the motor. I'll be using the slightly heavier weight 5W-40 Mobil 1 next oil/filter change, which will now be at 5K mi/6 mo intervals. When my clutch needs replacing, I'll see about removing the bearing cover as recommended by LN Engr. If it breaks, I have an extended 3-yr warranty, and maybe I can get a new spec motor from PCNA. In the mean time, I'm having a ball driving the thing, because the last car I had was a 118 bhp M-B W123 Diesel. I'm like a kid in a candy store!

Oh, and I chose the wrong word in describing the S2000; I meant to say "kinda bland". That's a long way from "ugly".

Edited March 19, 2009 by 355bhp

[c70Pete]

no worries :D

your IMS should be fine if its a 2006 or beyond... the IMS design is still not the best engineering but the 997S has the best implementation of it...

It's an '05, and an early one at that, with a double-race IMS bearing, so I can't even replace it without tearing down the motor. I'll be using the slightly heavier weight 5W-40 Mobil 1 next oil/filter change, which will now be at 5K mi/6 mo intervals. When my clutch needs replacing, I'll see about removing the bearing cover as recommended by LN Engr. If it breaks, I have an extended 3-yr warranty, and maybe I can get a new spec motor from PCNA. In the mean time, I'm having a ball driving the thing, because the last car I had was a 118 bhp M-B W123 Diesel. I'm like a kid in a candy store!

Oh, and I chose the wrong word in describing the S2000; I meant to say "kinda bland". That's a long way from "ugly".

extended warranty! your safe :D

[Benjamin Choi]

it's easy to resort to the aesthetics to cut something down. one can call the s2000 bland all day just as the next guy can call the porsche 911 a toad (it really does look like one while the s2000 may resemble a pokemon - choose your weapon).

the s2000 is a super value. i loved that car. it's pure sports car, everything bespoke, and feels like a go-kart which the 3-400lbs+ heavier 99X will never be able to pick-up....supercharged w/ 100000% peace of mind. it was that reliable for me and hundreds of others running the same setup.

as for the s54 engine being in the same club as the M9X... no way. 1) it impacts far fewer early engines back in the early 2000s; 2) bmw provided a fix for it via a service bulletin clearly listing the parts impacted/replaced (porsche what?); and 3) bmw backed it with an awesome peace of mind warranty (porsche what?).

you go to the m3 forum all day and there is NO talk about replacement engines, reman verbiage, running into gutted E46 m3 chassis at your local indy shop.

S54 is a very reliable, bulletproof engine. the m9X... not even close. Porsche failed by not even beginning to give owners a clue as to why it happened and what they're doing to make sure it doesn't happen again... and in some cases... again.

this is all coming from a guy that LOVES his 996 c4s and adores that pse enhanced flat six n/a sound (arguably the best sounding engine out there at partial throttle blvd cruising speed - think jet engine) and would never trade it for the s54 or any bmw M car.... but this guy's c4s has a factory reman engine replaced at 13K miles under original warranty with 57K on the clock of trouble free miles. plus i have a warranty right now as well. every little bit helps eh. :D

Edited March 19, 2009 by Benjamin Choi

[355bhp]

it's easy to resort to the aesthetics to cut something down. one can call the s2000 bland all day just as the next guy can call the porsche 911 a toad . . .

HAH! Funny you should say that. When co-workers/friends who knew me as the owner of that clattering M-B (although it was--and still is--a VERY good car) see the Porsche, I tell them that the Diesel turned into a frog! But you're right, aesthetic judgments are strictly personal. That said, I promise to Loren not to stray further from this thread.

[GT3jeff]

did anybody read the article in December's issue of EXCELLENCE? - about the m96 motors... from 99 right to 2008.... ALSO BY JIM PASHA :clapping:

I guess time really shows how good an m96 motor is....

does anybody know if the 2009 3.4 caymans have an intermediate shaft?

Would it be possible for someone to request permission to post this December 2008 M96 motor article from Excellence Magazine? I missed this issue and this sounds like a can't miss article for any modern 911 enthusiast. Thanks in advance!

[C2951]

Would it be possible for someone to request permission to post this December 2008 M96 motor article from Excellence Magazine? I missed this issue and this sounds like a can't miss article for any modern 911 enthusiast. Thanks in advance!

You can order back issues of Excellence from their web site.

[70Sixter]

I vote to ask permission if it isn't too hard.

I have the issue, but believe it would be worthwhile to be able to provide a link whenever someone goes hyper about the M96.

Neither Excellence staffers nor the test cars have never had a M96 grenade. One RMS leak reported repaired with many miles since.

[355bhp]

A hundred years ago, there was a legend about the necessity of keeping the rpm's elevated on the 356 Porsches of the day, and I believe that stemmed from the original 356 Carreras having roller-bearing cranks, and that the higher revs regimen was to counter any potential damage to those roller bearings from lugging the motors. Do you think that might apply to the M96's IMS bearing as well?

All I know is, that I'm having a ball keeping the revs elevated on my MY '05 M96 equipped C2S!

Edited April 7, 2009 by 355bhp

[BruceP]

A hundred years ago, there was a legend about the necessity of keeping the rpm's elevated on the 356 Porsches of the day, and I believe that stemmed from the original 356 Carreras having roller-bearing cranks, and that the higher revs regimen was to counter any potential damage to those roller bearings from lugging the motors. Do you think that might apply to the M96's IMS bearing as well?

All I know is, that I'm having a ball keeping the revs elevated on my MY '05 M96 equipped C2S!

This engine hates to be lugged. No engine is happy so far from peak efficiency as this engine is below 3000rpm. This one tells you so, too, in vibration, fuel economy, tailpipe emissions. Heck, Porsche tells you straight up you can run the motor up to 4500 rpm stone cold. I don't doubt that an M96 engine CAN be poodled around at 2000rpm and that lots of people do. But I don't think that makes it a good idea.

And you can't help but notice how many engine failure stories have occurred at very low speeds. My .02.

[GT3jeff]

I vote to ask permission if it isn't too hard.

I have the issue, but believe it would be worthwhile to be able to provide a link whenever someone goes hyper about the M96.

Neither Excellence staffers nor the test cars have never had a M96 grenade. One RMS leak reported repaired with many miles since.

I contacted Excellence about the possibility of making this article available on renntech.org. They basically declined saying opening it up to us is essentially opening it up to the entire world. I guess they have a point. And for now, I bet this article is driving some back issue sales.

This article seems to be of such importance to the reputation of the 986/996, that it should be posted for the greater good of the Porsche owner community and all prospective buyers. I know too many people who are too scared to buy a 986/996 because of the RMS issue.

[rexbd]

Lot of interesting conversation. I bought a few months back a 2002 c4 cab with tiptronic 52,000 miles. No oil drips anywhere but all this conversation does make one nervous. I bought a 3 year 36,000 warrenty from the dealer for piece of mind. Got such a good price on the car figured the 3 grand for a warrenty was worth it. I have a local mechanic who is crazy talented and doesn't charge premium rates just because the car is from germany. I am going to maintain the heck out of it, drive it every sunny day and not worry.

[355bhp]

Lot of interesting conversation. I bought a few months back a 2002 c4 cab with tiptronic 52,000 miles. No oil drips anywhere but all this conversation does make one nervous. I bought a 3 year 36,000 warrenty from the dealer for piece of mind. Got such a good price on the car figured the 3 grand for a warrenty was worth it. I have a local mechanic who is crazy talented and doesn't charge premium rates just because the car is from germany. I am going to maintain the heck out of it, drive it every sunny day and not worry.

And drive it hard. It ain't no Lexus.

[Darqangelle]

Don't know how much I can add here - But I can only share.

I purchased my 01 Cabrio just a few months ago...within 2 months of buying it I had an intermix problem. Cracks in the cylinders.

I didn't necessarily drive it hard or soft. (At least not any harder or softer than this old Pontiac I used to drive around in...well, maybe a little harder from time-to-time; it is a Porsche, right?)

From what I've read here and from what experiences have been shared; there appears to be no correlation between use and the faults, nor is there any warning to the problems.

Roll the dice. <_<

[Andronikos]

As a future buyer of a 996 I think that this thread is really helpful, but at the end of the day what I have understood is that if yo buy a car with 60-80k miles (98,99 model) with full service history and every documentation present, then the chances of real problems are remote.

Then again others might say it is a gamble, but what isn't ?

Andronikos

[c70Pete]

As a future buyer of a 996 I think that this thread is really helpful, but at the end of the day what I have understood is that if yo buy a car with 60-80k miles (98,99 model) with full service history and every documentation present, then the chances of real problems are remote.

Then again others might say it is a gamble, but what isn't ?

Andronikos

well... 60-80K is a high mileage 996 as I don't think they will go beyond 160K

full documentation and verifiable service history helps.... but what most potential buyers don't do is a leakdown and compression test... remember the cylinders of these cars tend to "oval" over time... especially by the 60-80K mark depending on how the car was driven... which practially guarantees you problems...

[blitzkrieg]

Huh Pete???

My '99 has 76K on the clock and it burns less than 1/2 quart of Mobil1 in 3K miles.

This car is not my daily driver but I do run it like it was meant to be driven and thus far it has been bulletproof short of two O2 sensors going south over the years.

While I agree that like any high strung engine there may have been some issues early on, at least in my case (I speak only for myself) I'd say a proper break-in and these are very good motors.

One thing I am pretty sure of is that my original 3.4 is not going to be ready for the scrap heap anytime soon.

[c70Pete]

Huh Pete???

My '99 has 76K on the clock and it burns less than 1/2 quart of Mobil1 in 3K miles.

This car is not my daily driver but I do run it like it was meant to be driven and thus far it has been bulletproof short of two O2 sensors going south over the years.

While I agree that like any high strung engine there may have been some issues early on, at least in my case (I speak only for myself) I'd say a proper break-in and these are very good motors.

One thing I am pretty sure of is that my original 3.4 is not going to be ready for the scrap heap anytime soon.

hey... 1/2 a quart every 5000 isn't bad for a 76,000 mile 3.4.... if your not tracking the car it should last a long time... high oil usage is a sign... but 1/2 a quart is nothing to be concerned about...

[Dennis C]

I'm at 82,000 miles on my 2002 C4S, and it doesn't burn any noticable oil between oil changes. I check it regularly, and it is always full. I am using Mobil 1 0W-40.

[nghiaho58]

Dennis,

Does your car leaks oil, especially at the RMS?

My friend just bought a 01 C2 and it has 57K mile. We saw a little oil leakage line between the engine and transmission. We believe it comes from the RMS. Should we have it repair or keep driving the car but pay very close attention to the oil level?

[txhokie4life]

Dennis,

Does your car leaks oil, especially at the RMS?

My friend just bought a 01 C2 and it has 57K mile. We saw a little oil leakage line between the engine and transmission. We believe it comes from the RMS. Should we have it repair or keep driving the car but pay very close attention to the oil level?

I would consider looking into the source of the leak -- if it is RMS it is dripping right across the IMS which is not good, and if it is the IMS, that is even worse.

How's the clutch at 57k?

If you think it might be time for a new clutch you could fix the RMS, and do an IMS retrofit for not much more than just doing the clutch.

mike

Lone Star RPM LLC

[Dennis C]

Dennis,

Does your car leaks oil, especially at the RMS?

My friend just bought a 01 C2 and it has 57K mile. We saw a little oil leakage line between the engine and transmission. We believe it comes from the RMS. Should we have it repair or keep driving the car but pay very close attention to the oil level?

I had a slight oil leak from the RMS that was fixed. I had the RMS and the intermediate shaft seal replaced at about 75,000 miles.

The oil leak was small, so it didn't affect the oil level very much. I believe you can drive it until the clutch needs to be replaced, and then put a new RMS in then.

Since replacement of the the RMS with the new design, I have had no oil leak issues at all.

[Purple21]

Most of the bigger races you'll see two or maybe three. The class is still dominated by 993RSCSs and progressed RSAs. 3.6L 996s are just now getting to the price where guys will convert them to race cars.

Regards

Purple

Edited October 14, 2009 by Loren
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