Cheap HP - too good?

[JG07997]

I’m new to Porsche and the forums having just bought a 2007 Carrera S.  I have found 2 upgrades on globalautoshop.com and I’m curious if anyone here can tell me if these are legit.  Both products are B&B Performance, one is cold air intake and the other is a chip module.  Total for both is $350 and they claim up to 10% and 12% HP gains respectively.  Can I really get up to 78 extra HP for $350??

[JFP in PA]

5 hours ago, JG07997 said:

I’m new to Porsche and the forums having just bought a 2007 Carrera S.  I have found 2 upgrades on globalautoshop.com and I’m curious if anyone here can tell me if these are legit.  Both products are B&B Performance, one is cold air intake and the other is a chip module.  Total for both is $350 and they claim up to 10% and 12% HP gains respectively.  Can I really get up to 78 extra HP for $350??

Welcome to RennTech

 

Realistically, no.  These engines are pretty well set up as delivered, and to gain an additional 78 HP, you are going to need to spend a lot of $.  Add in that by far, most advertising grossly over estimates the results of modifications (an example is the cold air intake, your car came from the factory with a cold air intake).  We have seen owners spend thousands of $ only to see very meager improvements on the dyno.  Save your money and invest it in a Driver Education day at the track to learn how to properly get the most out of what you have already.

[JG07997]

I will definitely do that!  I’m in Chicago and I believe our local PCA chapter has a few driving courses.  Curious on the upgrades though...could I see even half of their claims in regards to HP increases?  Even at half, $10/1HP seems like a good deal.  Or would exhaust give a better bump (and sound!)?  Thanks for your response!  

[JFP in PA]

48 minutes ago, JG07997 said:

I will definitely do that!  I’m in Chicago and I believe our local PCA chapter has a few driving courses.  Curious on the upgrades though...could I see even half of their claims in regards to HP increases?  Even at half, $10/1HP seems like a good deal.  Or would exhaust give a better bump (and sound!)?  Thanks for your response!  

I seriously doubt you would see even half what they claim; making more power with these engine's is both an arduous and expensive process.

 

Again, most after market exhausts are going to make more noise, along with adding teeth rattling drone, with little if any HP.  Several touted system actual lose HP on the dyno.  Caveat emptor......

[Silver_TT]

Congrats on your new car!  I would just echo what has already been said that most of these upgrades are just false marketing claims.  If you want to really upgrade your car, you should think about the IMS if it hasn't already been done.

 

Another consideration is you may get some unintended baggage if you chip your ECU or switch out the exhaust.  It can cause a number of different type of problems -- eg. with emissions.  In my state they check your ECU software and if it doesn't exactly match the car's OEM flash they will fail you.  I have seen flashed 996's and 997's that produce nothing more than stock on a dyno.  There are also people that change out their exhaust to a non-OEM that's supposed to work, or so the manufacturer claimed, only to start getting codes or an engine that runs rough, etc.  I'm not saying that will happen for sure, but you're definitely rolling the dice, and as JFP has already alluded to, you need to ask yourself is it really worth it when you're spending money and incrementally getting little to nothing (possibly even negative value).  My opinion would also be to enjoy your car and spend the money on track time and peace of mind (IMS Solution) for your investment.

[JG07997]

Thanks!  I’ve wondered what those “upgrades” may do to performance down the road, such as the issues you mentioned.  Is that IMS issue something I should worry about?  I’ve read in many places that it was more

prevalent on the 996 models and specifically on those that weren’t driven much (mine is an ‘07 with 52k miles).  I also bought the car from a small dealer who only sells Porsche.  He was a mechanic on them for years and said the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion.  

[ttocs]

I echoe the congrats and the welcome!

 

Re the upgrades: It's a 911, . . . S, have fun! People I've spoken with that have done upgrades had to decide if they wanted to be able to drive their cars easily on the street, or mostly track. The one's that enjoy driving on the street regularly un-upgraded.

 

Re driving: PCA Chicago kicks off the driving season a week from Sunday with a tech session, then the following weekend with Autocross School, and at the end of the month Drivers Education (DE) at Blackhawk Farms Raceway. Bleed the brakes, replace the pads, strap your helmet on and jump in! 

 

Also, do a search for Iron Gate Motor Condos. They have a free Open House once a month - get there early because it's very popular, several hundred cars show up, really nice cars. Lots of great car people. May 12th is Porsche day for Chrome and Coffee.

 

[Silver_TT]

996's and 997's are both affected as they both use the same IMS design.  The bearing has changed a few times but the design is still the same vulnerable design.  As far as the IMS and rate of failure, folks will, much like engine oil, debate until they are blue in the face.  Some people say tips fail less than manuals, cars driven more/less are better, etc.  The fact is that no one knows the exact rate of failure (some information was given in the lawsuits but these are still back of the envelope numbers) and no one has the data to be able to run a regression (probably not even Porsche).  But the simple fact that if an IMS failure does happen it has the potential to create an enormous amount of damage not limited to taking out the entire engine.  So while the rate of incidence is debatable, it's the type of situation where if you do in fact experience a failure, or even the beginnings of failure with ferrous metal swirling around in your engine's oil, you're in a very serious and expensive predicament.

[JFP in PA]

50 minutes ago, JG07997 said:

Thanks!  I’ve wondered what those “upgrades” may do to performance down the road, such as the issues you mentioned.  Is that IMS issue something I should worry about?  I’ve read in many places that it was more

prevalent on the 996 models and specifically on those that weren’t driven much (mine is an ‘07 with 52k miles).  I also bought the car from a small dealer who only sells Porsche.  He was a mechanic on them for years and said the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion.  

 

Your 2007 car, assuming it has its original engine, is a single row IMS, which had the highest reported rate of failure (8-10%), so I you are looking for modifications to enhance the car and potentially lengthen its lifespan, the IMS retrofit is an excellent place to start.  As for failure rates among Tiptronic cars, most statistics seem to fail to account for the fact that there were far fewer Tip cars than manuals.  Realistically, the failure rates for both style gear boxes are pretty much the same.

[ttocs]

FWIW

A month after I bought my ‘04 Boxster Tip I made the appointment to get the IMS, RMS, and AOS replaced. The car only had 30k, seemed well cared for (except the paint), and the PPI didn’t come up with anything to be concerned about except for needed maintenance more for the age than mileage. I got the Retrofit. If doing the same now I would do the Solution. 

[JG07997]

Wow, wish I’d known about the failure rate on 2007’s!  Thanks for your help, I’ll look into it.  Mine is a 6 speed but sounds like that doesn’t matter.  I see the part is $600, what can I expect for labor?

[JFP in PA]

1 minute ago, JG07997 said:

Wow, wish I’d known about the failure rate on 2007’s!  Thanks for your help, I’ll look into it.  Mine is a 6 speed but sounds like that doesn’t matter.  I see the part is $600, what can I expect for labor?

 

Labor prices are somewhat geographic, so I would suggest talking to your indie about his rates.  Realistically, to do this and the clutch should run $2-3K. And while the car is apart, it is an excellent chance to update the RMS and AOS at the same time, basically for the cost of the parts as the labor has already been covered.

[Silver_TT]

7 minutes ago, JG07997 said:

Wow, wish I’d known about the failure rate on 2007’s!  Thanks for your help, I’ll look into it.  Mine is a 6 speed but sounds like that doesn’t matter.  I see the part is $600, what can I expect for labor?

 

If it makes you feel any better, the failure rate is still material for other model years.  So don't lose sleep at night kicking yourself that you should have bought a different year with a double row bearing or whatever.  Any of the cars with this IMS design are going to be vulnerable to this catastrophic failure.

[JG07997]

So I’ve done quite a bit more research on the IMS topic.  Seems the “best” setup of the 3 is in the mid-2005-2008 range.  The actual change in vins in 05 are up to debate so call it 06-08.  According to Jack Raby at Flat Six Innovations the IMS is mostly a non-issue in 06-08 M97’s.  They have documented TWO failures in all the cars they have seen in these MY’s.  The bigger issue, according to them, is bore scoring in the 5 and 6 cylinders.  I find a ton of info on the IMS issue but not much on the bore issue.  Any particular reason?  Is it not as big of a concern?

[JFP in PA]

The final design IMS bearing tends to fail more on the track than on the street, unlike the earlier design's that did just the opposite,  but they still fail with the same catastrophic outcome, albeit it not as large numbers as the first two design bearings.  So while the third design IMS was better than the earlier versions, basically, any Porsche with an IMS bearing is at some level of failure risk, with only the level of probability varying, which is why the factory designed the IMS out of the engines in 2009.

 

Cylinder liner scoring is not as widely recognized a problem, and there is little public data collection to point to a specific cause or level of failures.  Most seem to point to two suspects: Cold weather and oil.  All boxster design engine's can load the thrust side of the piston skirt on start up, and with excess fuel wash of the cylinders in the cold, combined with many modern oils no longer having useful ZDDP anti wear levels, liner wear can occur over time.  Interestingly, other non boxster engines such as the Audi's also suffer similar cylinder scuffing, so it is not just limited to Porsche's.

[JG07997]

Flat Six recommends oil service at 6 months/5k miles with either Motul 8100 or Driven DT40 over Mobil for (as close to) preventative maintenance as one could hope.  Any experience with these oils?  5W40 I assume, I live in Chicago and only plan on very sporadic winter driving (cold starts) while driving fairly regular April- October.   

[JFP in PA]

The Gibbs DT40 is an excellent street oil, high ZDDP levels, great film strength. We use it extensively in the shop.