Coolant leak from front of engine

[Zakowsky]

Loaded the kids in the car to go hiking and then saw a puddle of coolant under the front of the engine. Constant drips, red arrow in the picture but actually come off the engine ahead of that, at around the blue arrow, under the sway bar. Can’t see anything wet from the top, but can’t see much in general. Can’t see from the bottom either, and it looks like I have to take the oil cooler off (or whatever the box the oil filter is attached to is). Any guesses what this might be - water pump I’m figuring? If so what is the best way to see this area, from the bottom or top? **** it...

 

 

Thanks.

 

Edit - here is a better picture of where it is actually dripping from, right at the front of the oil pan.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Zakowsky

[ekstroemtj]

Can't you see anything around the water pump pulley?

 

[Zakowsky]

No, the pulley and that whole area looks dry, including the pulleys and belts below it. In fact the whole front of the engine looks dry, it’s just dripping from close to the bottom, right above the oil cooler.

 

I guess if I take those 4 bolts off holding the cooler on it will drain the oil...

[Zakowsky]

So I found a thread where someone had a leak from this exact spot, and it turned out to be the water pump. His leak was intermittent, and now after setting it up in the garage for a tear down, I brought it up to temp and there was barely a drip. Looking more closely at the pulley Thomas I did in fact see the side closest to the engine had a white line around it like dried coolant, and if I watch the pulley carefully while it is running it looks like it could be moving a bit.

 

So water pump rather than the heat exchanger lines, or alternator cooling lines probably? And if the pump is leaking a bit can I drive it if necessary in the meantime, or is total disaster immanent? Thanks.

[lewisweller]

6 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

So I found a thread where someone had a leak from this exact spot, and it turned out to be the water pump. His leak was intermittent, and now after setting it up in the garage for a tear down, I brought it up to temp and there was barely a drip. Looking more closely at the pulley Thomas I did in fact see the side closest to the engine had a white line around it like dried coolant, and if I watch the pulley carefully while it is running it looks like it could be moving a bit.

 

So water pump rather than the heat exchanger lines, or alternator cooling lines probably? And if the pump is leaking a bit can I drive it if necessary in the meantime, or is total disaster immanent? Thanks.

Mike, whip off the intake Y pipe and grab the water pump pulley. If you can wobble it likely it's worn out and leaking from the front. 

Leaking could also be a pipe in there somewhere like the one that run coolant to the oil cooler and alternator? 

 

Fyi if you change the water pump (and replace the pulley as well because they crack and mine exploded when the garage did the head gaskets last year) you just need to release the belt by turning the tensioner item 17 clockwise with a spanner slipping the belt only off the water pump pulley (making it easy to put back on, replace the belt if worn or old) and then unbolt the water pump. What ever coolant leaks out will be about 1-2 litres which is easy to refill after putting new pump on with the new metal gasket don't forget. And also torque bolts correctly in a normal diagonal sequence or it will leak if too tight or too loose. 

 

After 1 day, check coolant again when engine is completely cold and top off coolant again then your good to go. 

[Zakowsky]

Great, thanks Lewis. Y-pipe is coming off tonight and I will check the pulley and look around. Have never had to do anything up front before so still getting oriented. But I was wondering about how much coolant would come out during the replacement, since it seems sensitive to how you refill, so good to know its only a couple of litres. In some ways glad this didn’t happen on our up coming trip, and this could also be that slight smell of coolant I’ve been getting for a while. Cheers.

[Zakowsky]

OK, so using my trusty GoPro on a stick, I checked out the area. The pulley isn’t really that loose, and from above it looked fine, but looking between the water pump pulley and the main balancer pulley below it there was crusted coolant for sure. This is between the two:

 

 

And I managed I think to get a shot behind the water pump pulley, these are the bolts holding it on? Some look OK but some have white stuff on them and you can see where it might be spray on the engine around it.

 

 

So ordering a new water pump tomorrow - looks like a tight fit on everything (as usual) in there.

[lewisweller]

2 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

OK, so using my trusty GoPro on a stick, I checked out the area. The pulley isn’t really that loose, and from above it looked fine, but looking between the water pump pulley and the main balancer pulley below it there was crusted coolant for sure. This is between the two:

 

 

And I managed I think to get a shot behind the water pump pulley, these are the bolts holding it on? Some look OK but some have white stuff on them and you can see where it might be spray on the engine around it.

 

 

So ordering a new water pump tomorrow - looks like a tight fit on everything (as usual) in there.

Its not too bad actually compared to some jobs. Don't forget the new pulley! 

[nerdtalker]

Definitely water pump. Just a few months ago I smelled coolant, saw a few drips, heard an odd noise at idle, and when I looked under the hood I saw tons of play in my pulley (it was literally dancing around like a top). After seeing it dancing like that I immediately stopped driving the car until I got all the new parts and fixed it. You don't want the plastic impeller breaking and sending bits of plastic through the fine coolant passageways in your block. I know from experience after spending hours fishing parts of the shattered water pump out of my friends 987 after he let his blow up, then putting it back together to make sure we got it all. 

 

One of the easier DIYs, and super well documented everywhere. My pulley cracked when I was tapping on it to remove it, then the parts department gave me the 958 pulley by mistake, that was the only difficulty. 

 

If you can, replace the belt while you're down there, mine was very cracked. 

[Zakowsky]

Thanks, and after looking it over I agree, should be relatively easy. I don't have the play in the pulley that others have but everything else says pump.

 

But of course things never go easy. After picking up my E-Torx sockets I drove out to get my new pump; I had ordered a Porsche unit from a non-Porsche dealer here who is usually pretty good at getting OEM parts (cheaper than the dealer), but when I got there the pulley was right, but the pump was a GRAF with a steel impeller, priced at 370$ CAN. Other than the fact that it goes for 59$ on Pelican, this puts me back a week now waiting for one from Porsche here. But the great part is on the drive I noticed I now have a vibration in what seems like the driveshaft. Lewis, you just went through this I think? It is between 86 and 98 kph, and feels central. No shaking or anything odd with the wheels or steering when it is happening. Flex plate looks fine, and I know I have the “aftermarket” shaft support, but it is exactly as it was when installed, and the vibration feels nothing like when the OEM support bearing went, so I don’t want to jump to any conclusions. I thought I had been feeling an ever so slight vibration over the past few weeks at this speed, and the last time I drove it I took it down a dirt road (getting the coolant to leak so I could see it better). This is the first time I’ve driven it since then and it is much worse now. The only other thing I’ve noticed is there are occasionally small clunking sounds from the front end when backing out of parking spots with the 22”.

 

It seems there are many different reasons for vibrations on the 955; I’ve checked the wheel bearing by torqueing on the wheel while raised and they seem OK. Tomorrow I was going to put my other wheels on and see if it is still there, but does anything else come to mind? Didn’t you calibrate your ride height and it helped?

 

 

[lewisweller]

3 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

Thanks, and after looking it over I agree, should be relatively easy. I don't have the play in the pulley that others have but everything else says pump.

 

But of course things never go easy. After picking up my E-Torx sockets I drove out to get my new pump; I had ordered a Porsche unit from a non-Porsche dealer here who is usually pretty good at getting OEM parts (cheaper than the dealer), but when I got there the pulley was right, but the pump was a GRAF with a steel impeller, priced at 370$ CAN. Other than the fact that it goes for 59$ on Pelican, this puts me back a week now waiting for one from Porsche here. But the great part is on the drive I noticed I now have a vibration in what seems like the driveshaft. Lewis, you just went through this I think? It is between 86 and 98 kph, and feels central. No shaking or anything odd with the wheels or steering when it is happening. Flex plate looks fine, and I know I have the “aftermarket” shaft support, but it is exactly as it was when installed, and the vibration feels nothing like when the OEM support bearing went, so I don’t want to jump to any conclusions. I thought I had been feeling an ever so slight vibration over the past few weeks at this speed, and the last time I drove it I took it down a dirt road (getting the coolant to leak so I could see it better). This is the first time I’ve driven it since then and it is much worse now. The only other thing I’ve noticed is there are occasionally small clunking sounds from the front end when backing out of parking spots with the 22”.

 

It seems there are many different reasons for vibrations on the 955; I’ve checked the wheel bearing by torqueing on the wheel while raised and they seem OK. Tomorrow I was going to put my other wheels on and see if it is still there, but does anything else come to mind? Didn’t you calibrate your ride height and it helped?

 

 

I would have a look at the flex disc for cracks or chunks missing. Also your home made centre bearing support, maybe something moved. 

I found if the ride height isn't right there can feel like vibrations resonance through the car. But assuming it's not dragging around out of whack I wouldn't think this is your issue. 

Changing Wheels will narrow the list down. 

Front clunk's can be a antiroll bar bushes, top or bottom arms,  even brake caliper/pad movements. 

Good luck. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by lewisweller

[ekstroemtj]

@nerdtalker

 

regarding your post there is onother opinion out there. Once i have been adviced by a mechanic in a different way. you dont want to see a waterpump with metal impellers going to fail. If the bearing of your pump is going bad the entire assembly will get out of balance and the metal impellers touch the engine housing and can cause a major damage. 

So i dont know whats the better way. I replaced mine with a plastic impeller pump.

 

[Zakowsky]

Thanks Thomas. I agree, the metal impellers are too much of a risk. I refused to buy the one he ordered for me and just ordered one this morning from the Porsche dealer here, $400, but I need it soon. I am assuming it has a composite impeller as it is OEM, but I will check when it gets here.

 

With the vibration Lewis, I am still at a loss. Examined the flex plate and it is fine, no chunks out or cracks of any kind. I even mounted the support bearing bracket at an angle and drove it, to see if it would make it worse, but there was no change at all. Definitely comes and goes with speed, so that doesn't fit with the support bearing also. I could buy a whole new driveshaft, but I really don't think that will fix the problem, and I don't have much time before the trip. The air suspension seems fine so I won't mess with it. Will change the wheels tonight; I guess it is possible a rear wheel is out of balance and I don't feel it up front at all. I just had the wheels balanced a few weeks ago, maybe one of the weights flew off. But it is almost a roaring sound right from the midline of the car, sort of toward the back. Family refuses to go on a road trip in the 96 Jeep Grand Cherokee…while it did break down twice on our last trip to California, it has many new parts now because of that (:)), but they still don't buy that logic!

[ekstroemtj]

Can you make a picture of the disc?

 

I was hunting for vibrations for monthes. Always believed something with the engine. In the end a failed disc . Changed and solved everything. By my first inspection it looked good but the small cracks you can't see with your eye sometimes.

 

[Zakowsky]

Hi Thomas,

 

I did re-read your thread on the disc and vibrations; actually I compared my disc to your pictures, which is why I think mine is OK! It’s bolted in right now so can’t get a meaningful picture right now.

 

But I think I am making headway - interestingly the vibration went away for a while, and then came back. So figuring it had to be something changeable (temperature maybe) I looked very closely at my support bracket fix again. It seems the hose has got softer over time, and is a little more compressed on one side versus the other. Mounted it is several different positions and had different effects on the vibration. So could be just that, the obvious explanation, so I am just going to make a new one. Takes only 30 minutes, but I am out of zip ties, so can’t do it tonight. Want to get this fixed, or at least know what I have to do before my water pump comes in next Tuesday. New driveshaft here is $1500 from Porsche, and you still have the crappy support bearing; getting a rebuilt one from the US will take too long, and replacing the support bearing alone looks like hard work not to screw up your shaft in the process, and again you have the OEM support bearing problem. There are those half circle bearing support brackets, but they are the price of a rebuilt shaft, plus they use the old bearing and I hear they are too firm and cause problems because of that. So I kind of like the tubing fix, and if you have to put a new one in every 10,000 km that is not so bad. If that doesn’t fix it I will just buy a new flex disc and try that. But not from Porsche - they quoted me $160 for the disc, but said I had to buy the driveshaft as well, they wouldn’t sell it separately!

[Zakowsky]

Hah! I was getting ready to upload a picture of the flex disc to show that it wasn't cracked, and then looking closely at the picture - I saw cracks! So you were correct Thomas, they can be hard to see. I shot this with just a cell phone; I will take more with my real camera later.

 

 

I still think it is not the cause of the vibrations, but for sure I will replace it before it is! Why I say that is I replaced the hose/zip tie support system, and now the vibration is gone, on the test drive anyway. Couple of things to note. When I took the hose sections out they were definitely softer than when they went in. But rather than just replacing them and have the same thing happen down the road, I modified the design a bit. I reused the old large hose sections (5/8") and inserted smaller hose sections inside 4 of the 8. This makes a very solid brace for the shaft bearing, but is still compressible enough to get it in there.

 

 

Another but - while doing this I also checked the bearing itself again, and it does now seem to be wearing, there is a bit of play in it. Repacked it with grease, although that usually just quiets them, and won't actually help with the wear.

 

So where was the vibration from - the bearing, the support, or the flex disc? Easy answer is to replace them all. But I am guessing the support; greasing the bearing should not make a difference with these kind of forces, and if it was the cracks in the flex disc, it wouldn't go away with the new mount.

 

Anyway water pump should come in next week and I'll be back to the regularly scheduled thread.

[lewisweller]

6 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

Hah! I was getting ready to upload a picture of the flex disc to show that it wasn't cracked, and then looking closely at the picture - I saw cracks! So you were correct Thomas, they can be hard to see. I shot this with just a cell phone; I will take more with my real camera later.

 

 

I still think it is not the cause of the vibrations, but for sure I will replace it before it is! Why I say that is I replaced the hose/zip tie support system, and now the vibration is gone, on the test drive anyway. Couple of things to note. When I took the hose sections out they were definitely softer than when they went in. But rather than just replacing them and have the same thing happen down the road, I modified the design a bit. I reused the old large hose sections (5/8") and inserted smaller hose sections inside 4 of the 8. This makes a very solid brace for the shaft bearing, but is still compressible enough to get it in there.

 

 

Another but - while doing this I also checked the bearing itself again, and it does now seem to be wearing, there is a bit of play in it. Repacked it with grease, although that usually just quiets them, and won't actually help with the wear.

 

So where was the vibration from - the bearing, the support, or the flex disc? Easy answer is to replace them all. But I am guessing the support; greasing the bearing should not make a difference with these kind of forces, and if it was the cracks in the flex disc, it wouldn't go away with the new mount.

 

Anyway water pump should come in next week and I'll be back to the regularly scheduled thread.

It was the centre bearing support for sure, "roaring noise in the middle of the car" was accurately described. That flex disc isn't going to show itself just yet. 

I would prep for a while shaft and new flex disc replacement in about 10,000 miles. 

Happy motoring 

[ekstroemtj]

can you imagine how much torque/ power lasting on this parts. If there is a small disbalance , i believe you feel it immediately 

 

 

[nerdtalker]

On 7/25/2017 at 0:08 PM, ekstroemtj said:

@nerdtalker

 

regarding your post there is onother opinion out there. Once i have been adviced by a mechanic in a different way. you dont want to see a waterpump with metal impellers going to fail. If the bearing of your pump is going bad the entire assembly will get out of balance and the metal impellers touch the engine housing and can cause a major damage. 

So i dont know whats the better way. I replaced mine with a plastic impeller pump.

 

I don't think I advocated installing an aftermarket water pump with metal impeller anywhere in my post. I bought mine straight from Porsche with the plastic impeller. I would definitely never install a water pump with metal impellers, you'll just mill your block when your water pump develops play. OP was asking if he needed to stop driving right away, to which the response is an affirmative – fishing plastic bits out of the block and worrying about clogged coolant passageways isn't fun.

 

I've PPIed cars before and seen them get dinged pretty seriously for having the aftermarket water pumps that have metal impellers.

Edited July 28, 2017 by nerdtalker

[ekstroemtj]

Sorry. Maybe i got it wrong. My english :-(

[lewisweller]

18 hours ago, ekstroemtj said:

Sorry. Maybe i got it wrong. My english :-(

Your English was good Thomas,  Plastic impellor is good, metal impellor is bad. You and Nerdtalker are saying the same thing, don't use a metal one. Porsche oem is plastic in case anyone was wondering. 

[Zakowsky]

My pump comes in on Wednesday; I'll take some pictures of the install. In the mean time I have been struggling with my rear wiper arm for 3 days! Trying to remove it to replace the switch, but don’t want to shatter the plastic arm. Have a puller on it and soaking it in WD40 but it won’t budge. Nothing is easy on this car. But the driveshaft is vibration free with the new mount design, guess that was it after all.

[ekstroemtj]

Dont know if you want to do this extra work. Thermostat! 

Did you ever take off the manifold?

i was a bit affraid but Lewis say piece of cake. Actually it was.

It doesnt take so much time.

check the starter.

check the small water lines under there. I am not talking about the main plastic or alu tubes. There are small ones which fail after some time. Extreme heat there make them crack one day and you will loose all water. Happend to me.

 

Thermostat, mine wasnt in good shape.

 

i mention this because my shop had my manifold off already 4 or 5 times because of different reason. Instead of thinking a little bit ahead they just do what is necessary. If they would have asked me the very first time, we are here. Should we replace this and that i wouldnt have refused the advice. The parts (thermostat and water lines) arent that expensive. But the work will be .

[ekstroemtj]

Here are the small water tubes i am talking about. After 10 years they could get bad like mine

Edited August 1, 2017 by ekstroemtj

[Zakowsky]

Thanks Thomas. I’ve never taken off the manifold, or even the throttle body. The main reason being I’ve read some stories saying if you move the throttle plate during this process your car won’t start and has to be taken to Porsche to have the throttle matched up with the engine again, and Durametrics can’t help you. But I did buy a throttle body to intake gasket, so I am going to have to try this time. There is an intake manifold gasket in stock in town, so if the pump goes OK I will give the throttle and intake a try. What are the chances of re-using the 100$ intake gasket? I would like to replace that line too, and would have to take it off to get to it. I considered doing the thermostat, but mine has always been rock solid in the middle so I figured don’t mess with it.

 

My parts came in early so starting tonight. Has anyone ever ordered an OEM Porsche pump? Mine looks kind of junky in my opinion. Is it normal to have scoring on the gasket face surface like this on a $400 pump? It doesn’t look like it was ground down and polished very well. Or is this to grip the gasket?

 

 

 

OK, time to drain the coolant and get started.