Transmission leak 2004 CTT

[Zakowsky]

So in my boost testing thread I mentioned that my transmission didn’t seem to be up to par these days, and yesterday it got much worse. When I would first accelerate after starting it at anything but really slow, it will stay in 2nd, rev high then slam into 4th. After doing that once it would behave if I kept the revs low, but after getting it home I just left it. Looking underneath I saw the whole transmission pan soaked in ATF. So after chatting with Lewis, I am hoping if it was the torque converter seal I would have more ATF up near the bell housing holes; they are a bit wet, but everything down there is:

 

 

But the front of the pan has ATF on all the bolts, and the pan itself is dark with fluid (grey patch in the last picture is the only dry part). And I saw a drip actively come off the edge of the pan while I was under there. Plus one of the bolts was loose. And the parts around it were dry, so I really don’t think it was coming from the bell housing.

 

 

 

 

Although with that said, there was AFT sprayed around the area just back from the holes, which is a bit ahead of the transmission pan. I hope it isn't both...

 

I read on the fluids thread above that just a half liter down can affect your shifting. So any opinions on if I did damage to the tranny itself, or is the shifting problems just because of the low fluid? There doesn’t seem to be that much on the floor in the garage, and when I stop in a parking lot there isn’t any drips, so I can’t that much of the 8-9 liters being gone.

 

I am worried about this because I just couldn’t afford a new transmission...thanks.

 

[Brainz006]

Was the loose bolt and surrounding area the most wet? Your weep holes look relatively dry versus when my seal went. I'd wipe the whole area clean/dry and drive it some more to see where the ATF appears to be coming from.

Regarding shifting issues, when my trans was underfilled, it would have hard/erratic shifts first thing in the morning, presumably because the fluid drained into the pan and/or aerated when it started up. That would cause erratic shifting until the trans fully primed. Once filled to the correct level, that issue went away.

One other issue, is that our transmissions are very sensitive to vacuum leaks in the intake. Apparently the Transmission Control Module must look at the MAP sensor (or similar) and it will make the trans shift awkwardly in the low gears. At speed its less an issue.

Banging on downshifts is the valve body.

Fix your leak and refill the trans first. Good luck.

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[Mr. Haney]

Actually kinda looks like coolant.....

[Brainz006]

Actually kinda looks like coolant.....

I thought the same thing. Looks more orangish-pink than dark red. But may be the photo.

Does it smell like coolant?


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[Zakowsky]

Thanks guys – I thought it was a funky color too, but it doesn’t smell or feel like coolant at all, just like ATF. I’m going to drain the transmission tomorrow, so I will see what is what then. The coolant thing does worry me a bit, because before I bought it, it did have a big coolant meltdown of the plastic pipes. They were all upgraded, but I have read sometimes the leak affects the torque converter seal. I don’t know how coolant could get in the transmission, but that would of course be bad...

 

Going over the receipts, it had a new valve body put in 4 years ago; the valve body was a Porsche part but the gasket was aftermarket (maybe why it leaked?). For fluid they put in G-055-025-A2, which is the Audi/VW equivalent of Mobil 3309 I believe. In Canada things are often named slightly differently than the rest of the world, and I was going to use Castrol’s “Import Multi-Vehicle ATF” which is a bit different than the Transmax, but has the correct ratings in the list. I think...

 

Tomorrow I will source out the gasket and filter, and keep my fingers crossed there is no permanent damage. Brainz, it sounds like your situation with the bad up shifts happening right at start up. This has been slowly getting worse since I bought it 6 months ago. And there must be a slight vacuum leak still somewhere (I have been searching for it for a while now...), because the idle still dips a little at lights. But up until a week ago the shifting was nowhere as bad as it is now. Glad yours got better with the top up, hope mine will too.

 

As far as my valve body, it is fairly new and the only downshifting hammers I get are if I have been going fast for a long time and I slow down with PCM on; 5->4 can hammer bad. But if I shift manually or with PCM off it is OK. So we’ll see happens with that when the fluid is right.

 

Now to try and get the parts to Canada without a 3 week wait!

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Zakowsky

[Zakowsky]

So it sounds like a pointless question, seeing as my non-OEM transmission pan gasket is probably leaking, but does everyone buy the Porsche OEM gasket and filter? Price difference aside, are the non-OEM ones really so bad as to fail in 4 years? Not completely surprised, but I am a bit. I’ve read all the AFT equivalence threads, and trying to match things up for that. But curious about the gaskets/filters, for future reference. Thanks.

 

Edit - Just wanted to add about the AFT looking like coolant, I found out that there are some ATF fluids for this transmission (like Pentosin or original VW/Audi ATF) that are actually amber and not red. I guess that must be what they put in mine.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Zakowsky

[Brainz006]

I used a non-Porsche gasket/filter kit and it seemed fine. No leaks on mine. I used both 3309 and Toyota Type IV. Both were fine, and the latter is cheap and available. If you are getting the 5-4 hammer on downshift, that's the valve body - - you've learned to drive around the conditions that trigger it. Mistimed up shifts in the low gears when cold was an underfilled symptom for me (so was temporary loss of drive, usually when cold). Poor shifting/rough running in the low gears/revs can also be a vacuum (or boost) leak. Good luck.

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[lewisweller]

Mike

I used non oem gasket and filter and Toyota type iv and no leaks (excluding the torque convertor seal). 

I'm with brainz hard downshift is valve body solenoid problem. 

I've had the bad up shifts when engine was running bad due to vaccum hose split and alternator was cropped out battery dying. Otherwise the transmission is very smooth, smoother than audi s tronic (double clutch of course). 

[Zakowsky]

Thanks guys; I need to get the beast back on the road, and the Porsche gasket is in stock here, so will have to weigh money ($140 here) versus time for that versus the non-ORM at a fraction of the price. Have to see the price of Toyota IV tomorrow versus the Castrol multi-import ATF that covers the same specs (on sale at Canadian Tire here). Car is on jack stands ready for work.

 

I see the writing on the wall for the valve body. Bites because it was new just 4 years ago, when I bought it that was a plus point for me. I am tempted to pull it out while I am in there and see if there are any burrs on the 5-4 cylinders or gunk or anything serviceable. Haven’t seen anyone that has done this online though so maybe pointless. And I have to do a smoke test for leaks; there must be something somewhere I am not finding, especially with the small remaining dip in the RPM going to idle.

 

Time to make a mess, will report back.

[Mr. Haney]

You can buy just the solenoids. There's several manufacturers but rostra controls is the first one that comes to mind. If you PM me I can send you some documents later that will explain to you exactly how the entire transmission works

[Zakowsky]

OK, a few questions - is the full volume of fluid supposed to come out of the T40 drain plug? Car is level, on jack stands and only about 4 liters came out. I know some more will come when I take off the pan, but not another 4-5 liters...do you have to run the engine to get it all out, or is it just that low (hard to believe) on fluid?

 

Also, when filling, some say leaving it in neutral while running is OK, other say put it in reverse and drive for 5 seconds. The 22” wheels are just barely off the ground, I’d rather leave it in neutral, or will I get less in there that way? Maybe I should put the 20” wheels on for this. Thanks.

[lewisweller]

1 hour ago, Zakowsky said:

OK, a few questions - is the full volume of fluid supposed to come out of the T40 drain plug? Car is level, on jack stands and only about 4 liters came out. I know some more will come when I take off the pan, but not another 4-5 liters...do you have to run the engine to get it all out, or is it just that low (hard to believe) on fluid?

 

Also, when filling, some say leaving it in neutral while running is OK, other say put it in reverse and drive for 5 seconds. The 22” wheels are just barely off the ground, I’d rather leave it in neutral, or will I get less in there that way? Maybe I should put the 20” wheels on for this. Thanks.

Dry Fluid capacity is 9litres but fluid change is 8-9litres because you likely won't get the last 1 litre out. 

So yes it looks like it's under filled/ leaked a bit out already. 

Drop the pan and measure the rest. 

 

Refill: pump in until it spills and screw in plug. Start engine and run in P for a min then into N and leave it there for a while. If you have it safely off the ground its ideal to run through the gears and get a good circulation.

The temp of 40oC is supposed to be the magic number for a full transmission, so before it gets hot, engine still running and in N slide under and unscrew the plug again and pump in some more fluid until it runs out. Replace plug and switch off engine. Let it cool off for a while (so the final time you repeat engine on ...plug out.... pump in until comes out) you are topping of fluid which is approx 40oc.

Our vagcom has fluid temp I think. 

[Zakowsky]

Thanks Lewis,

 

Only got another litre out of the pan - wow it was low, surprised it even drove. It’s all apart, but will probably have to swap my wheels to get it off the ground enough to let the wheels turn. Going with the Toyota IV ATF at $8 per litre. My decision now is to wait 5-8 days for a Elring gasket for $12, or buy the Porsche one that is in stock today for $140. Our back up vehicles are not running so well, so might suck it up and get the Porsche one. Looking at the non-OEM one that was one there, I was not too impressed with the material. When there are metal grommets to keep us from over tightening it (which is good), you really have to trust the gasket manufacturer. Mine seemed very soft, and it seems like it wasn’t sealing at all on the pan side. My transmission pan says VW on it, but I don’t think that is a problem. Trying to talk myself into getting the Porsche one…

[lewisweller]

4 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

Thanks Lewis,

 

Only got another litre out of the pan - wow it was low, surprised it even drove. It’s all apart, but will probably have to swap my wheels to get it off the ground enough to let the wheels turn. Going with the Toyota IV ATF at $8 per litre. My decision now is to wait 5-8 days for a Elring gasket for $12, or buy the Porsche one that is in stock today for $140. Our back up vehicles are not running so well, so might suck it up and get the Porsche one. Looking at the non-OEM one that was one there, I was not too impressed with the material. When there are metal grommets to keep us from over tightening it (which is good), you really have to trust the gasket manufacturer. Mine seemed very soft, and it seems like it wasn’t sealing at all on the pan side. My transmission pan says VW on it, but I don’t think that is a problem. Trying to talk myself into getting the Porsche one…

If the pan sealing face is flat then you don't need to waste money on a new one. Everything is vw on this car don't be fooled by the porsche hype. 

The pan bolt tightening torque is very important, tighten evenly and don't over tighten, the gasket will be fudged up otherwise. 

[Brainz006]

If you are trying to save money on the valve body, the TransGo repair kit is your cheapest option. But it is a meticulous repair and is not for the feint of heart. But it does work.

 

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[Zakowsky]

Maybe I actually own a rebranded Touareg lol! So on closer inspection of it I do in fact have a real VW gasket as well, 09D-321-371. The gasket looks perfectly fine; it’s hard to tell for sure of course but when I took it off it did seem like there was dirt on the transmission mating side inside the ridges, and the pan side was wet with ATF all the way to the outside. But if it is fine, how could I loose 3-4 litres of ATF? Bolt torque is really that important I suppose. Two were finger tight only, two had low torque, but the rest were OK. This makes me worry the torque converter seal is also gone. The ATF was amber btw.

 

I think the best thing to do now is clean the gasket up, reinstall, torque properly, clean everything and watch for fresh leaks. It probably took a month of driving to get this low, as everything was dry when I did the driveshaft support fix.

 

That TransGo kit looks tricky but worth trying...but going to sort out the leak first then see how it is doing.

[lewisweller]

7 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

Maybe I actually own a rebranded Touareg lol! So on closer inspection of it I do in fact have a real VW gasket as well, 09D-321-371. The gasket looks perfectly fine; it’s hard to tell for sure of course but when I took it off it did seem like there was dirt on the transmission mating side inside the ridges, and the pan side was wet with ATF all the way to the outside. But if it is fine, how could I loose 3-4 litres of ATF? Bolt torque is really that important I suppose. Two were finger tight only, two had low torque, but the rest were OK. This makes me worry the torque converter seal is also gone. The ATF was amber btw.

 

I think the best thing to do now is clean the gasket up, reinstall, torque properly, clean everything and watch for fresh leaks. It probably took a month of driving to get this low, as everything was dry when I did the driveshaft support fix.

 

That TransGo kit looks tricky but worth trying...but going to sort out the leak first then see how it is doing.

If you reuse the gasket you might consider a careful bead of high temperature gasket sealer? 

And yes 100% hygiene is key to leak free sealing faces and tighten bolts helps too lol

[Zakowsky]

I was thinking that, but I worry with transmissions any small threads of silicon that might come off in the pan could get sucked into the small passages in the valve body. Going to try it tonight and see how it goes.

[lewisweller]

4 hours ago, Zakowsky said:

I was thinking that, but I worry with transmissions any small threads of silicon that might come off in the pan could get sucked into the small passages in the valve body. Going to try it tonight and see how it goes.

Put the small neat sealer bead on the outer edge of the sealing face so any squeezed sealer would only come to the outside and wouldn't go into the transmission. 

The tube of sealer should come with a small screw on fine nozzle which allows you to control the bead and lay down a nice skinny amount that will squash down evenly but doesn't have the width to get inside the transmission.  Let the tightened up sump pan sit for an hour and let the sealer go off completely, before filling up with fluid. It won't leak if done carefully. 

I'm sure you'll be alright. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by lewisweller

[Zakowsky]

To end this story (and I guess I will be beginning a new one, maybe...), I wound up using a new VW gasket; I bought one and compared it to my old one and the ridges on the transmission side were noticeably thicker in the new one, and so I just put the new one on to have no worries. The gasket doesn’t leak and is all good with the pan.

 

But some things to note:

 

- after measuring properly, I drained out about 5 liters of ATF, but only about 6.2 went back in. Vehicle was level, temperature correct and all that. So I must not have drained close to it all, even though it sat with the pan off for a day. So it wasn’t as low as I thought. Used Mobil 3309 btw.

 

- transmission shifts fine again, no starting in 1st with PCM on, 2-3 shift up and all others fine. No 5-4 jolt, but that only happened occasionally and I haven’t driven it too much yet. But overall the transmission is running great.

 

- but the bad part is I think it is in fact leaking from the torque converter seal. I tested it three times last night, being progressively less easy on it, checking for leaks between each run, and saw none. The final test was for about an hour, and when I got home the bolt hole of despair was dry. Was relieved, but this morning I checked it and there was about two drops of new clean ATF that had come from the hole.

 

I don’t know what constitutes a big leak or a small leak, but if it isn’t a DIY fix (and Lewis if you are not doing it, I probably won’t be doing it!), not sure what the future holds for keeping the car. Going to get some quotes.

 

Note - after reading, I guess I should have seen this coming as the coolant pipes had burst before I bought the car and were all upgraded, which I thought was good, but now I see how this often leads to seal failure due to the coolant pouring into the bell housing.

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Zakowsky

[lewisweller]

9 minutes ago, Zakowsky said:

To end this story (and I guess I will be beginning a new one, maybe...), I wound up using a new VW gasket; I bought one and compared it to my old one and the ridges on the transmission side were noticeably thicker in the new one, and so I just put the new one on to have no worries. The gasket doesn’t leak and is all good with the pan.

 

But some things to note:

 

- after measuring properly, I drained out about 5 liters of ATF, but only about 6.2 went back in. Vehicle was level, temperature correct and all that. So I must not have drained close to it all, even though it sat with the pan off for a day. So it wasn’t as low as I thought. Used Mobil 3309 btw.

 

- transmission shifts fine again, no starting in 1st with PCM on, 2-3 shift up and all others fine. No 5-4 jolt, but that only happened occasionally and I haven’t driven it too much yet. But overall the transmission is running great.

 

- but the bad part is I think it is in fact leaking from the torque converter seal. I tested it three times last night, being progressively less easy on it, checking for leaks between each run, and saw none. The final test was for about an hour, and when I got home the bolt hole of despair was dry. Was relieved, but this morning I checked it and there was about two drops of new clean ATF that had come from the hole.

 

I don’t know what constitutes a big leak or a small leak, but if it isn’t a DIY fix (and Lewis if you are not doing it, I probably won’t be doing it!), not sure what the future holds for keeping the car. Going to get some quotes.

 

Not good news Mike. 

 

I've just finished up mine making it ready to go auction on Tuesday night. 

I put all the beauty covers back on, cleaned the engine bay area, Cleaned the underneath from the atf leak also. What I did notice is when I started the car and let it warm up to nearly 90oC there was no leaking from the holes. Either it won't leak until its hot hot or the fluid level lower means less likelihood of leaking initially? 

Either way it ain't gonna fix itself and on Tuesday night someone will be the (un)lucky owner. Not the way I would like to sell it but cost of repair and change in circumstances forces a quick sale. 

Most buyers are traders who will export to another middle east country and make some profit. The saving they will make under the book value will partly be spent on repair but that's the gamble of the auction. Sold as seen.  

 

Fyi I never did have the injectors cleaned professionally but I'm 90% certain the blockage and poor spray pattern was the cause of the lean hesitation I battled for a year trying to fix. 

 

[Zakowsky]

Sad to hear it is going up for sale, but on the other hand sometimes it is for the best. As may be the case with mine. I will see how it presents over the next few days. Curious though, are you going to buy another one?

[lewisweller]

11 minutes ago, Zakowsky said:

Sad to hear it is going up for sale, but on the other hand sometimes it is for the best. As may be the case with mine. I will see how it presents over the next few days. Curious though, are you going to buy another one?

Not a chance lol. 

Don't get me wrong, if you want a 4x4 that's not a total snail it's pretty good. But if like a lot of owners you get hit with a series of expensive repairs and your wallet isn't efficiently growing your money on trees, you will soon become slightly bitter and twisted about it. 

My personal situation has changed a lot just recently and I only need one car and my Audi is my baby and will never be sold. The porsche was the mistress and a bad b * tch at that in many ways. 

[Zakowsky]

Yeah, I can hear that, lol! While my Cayenne was down I was driving the family around in the 944; it was a lot of fun actually, and reminded me why I started liking Porsche in the first place. So easy to work on, and the engineers used to go out of their way to make it that way. Even with a quarter of a million miles on it, the 944 always gets us there. Too bad Porsche changed so much, but what hasn’t in 30 years. Good luck at the auction.

 

As for my transmission saga, it still continues; I am getting a few drops per day from the pan gasket still. Not sure if it is under torqued or over torqued. I can’t believe anything is as low as 7.5 ft-lbs, but I tightened them up a bit more and the drips got bigger. It is strange, because sometimes I see some drops from the torque converter seal bolt hole, sometimes I don’t. And sometimes it is wet with ATF in front of the bolt holes as well. Haven’t figured out the relationship to engine speed yet. If it is only a few drops per day I might hold off on the seal replacement. Just fill it back up when the shifting gets bad!

 

Hope you keep lurking here after your Cayenne is gone Lewis!

 

[lewisweller]

On 2017-5-9 at 10:43 AM, Zakowsky said:

Yeah, I can hear that, lol! While my Cayenne was down I was driving the family around in the 944; it was a lot of fun actually, and reminded me why I started liking Porsche in the first place. So easy to work on, and the engineers used to go out of their way to make it that way. Even with a quarter of a million miles on it, the 944 always gets us there. Too bad Porsche changed so much, but what hasn’t in 30 years. Good luck at the auction.

 

As for my transmission saga, it still continues; I am getting a few drops per day from the pan gasket still. Not sure if it is under torqued or over torqued. I can’t believe anything is as low as 7.5 ft-lbs, but I tightened them up a bit more and the drips got bigger. It is strange, because sometimes I see some drops from the torque converter seal bolt hole, sometimes I don’t. And sometimes it is wet with ATF in front of the bolt holes as well. Haven’t figured out the relationship to engine speed yet. If it is only a few drops per day I might hold off on the seal replacement. Just fill it back up when the shifting gets bad!

 

Hope you keep lurking here after your Cayenne is gone Lewis!

 

Cayenne didn't sell! The auction was a flop and only newer model cars was selling to a small audience of buyers. 

 

So I have arrange a friend of a friend garage to do the work labour about 400 dollar and I will supply the torque convertor seal and also rear engine crankshaft seal. I already have some Toyota type iv atf fluid to top up and no need to drop pan and do filter as it was new last year. 

Also having some paint work done right now to make the car ready to sell privately.