Code 1341 Camshaft Adjustment Bank1 below limit value

[Porschetech3]

Schnell, one thing that has not been talked about on your problem is the mechanical timing between intake and exhaust cam. A common problem that is easy for the chain to slip over a tooth when trying to assemble the cams with chain and tensioner especially if you don't have the engine vertical. There are two gold colored links and two dots on the gears to time this(of course you already know this, I think this is a new build?). You can check this quickly by putting the engine in TDC same as setting the cam timing for the exhaust cam. then remover the cam plug above the bank 1 oil pump, look at the tang for the cam sensor, it should be pointing directly to 3 o'clock away from the head. If it's anything other than 3 o'clock the cams will have to be removed and retime intake to exhaust cam timing. I have seen this a few times and it will cause code p1341 and also will not allow cam actuator to advance/retard timing because it is too far out of spec.(14.9). There are 24 teeth on the gear that means 1 tooth off will give you 15 degrees off ie 14.9

Edited April 1, 2017 by Porschetech3
spelling

[Porschetech3]

Deporto, your problem seems to be just a high mileage issue. 5670hrs? Don't know how many miles or if this is original motor or it has been refreshed or not but if not it is around 200k? Your cam deviations are just a little out of specs probably due to normal wear on the chains , pads, guides. Refresh of your timing components amd retime will probably cure this fault.

[Ahsai]

51 minutes ago, Porschetech3 said:

Schnell, one thing that has not been talked about on your problem is the mechanical timing between intake and exhaust cam. A common problem that is easy for the chain to slip over a tooth when trying to assemble the cams with chain and tensioner especially if you don't have the engine vertical. There are two gold colored links and two dots on the gears to time this(of course you already know this, I think this is a new build?). You can check this quickly by putting the engine in TDC same as setting the cam timing for the exhaust cam. then remover the cam plug above the bank 1 oil pump, look at the tang for the cam sensor, it should be pointing directly to 3 o'clock away from the head. If it's anything other than 3 o'clock the cams will have to be removed and retime intake to exhaust cam timing. I have seen this a few times and it will cause code p1341 and also will not allow cam actuator to advance/retard timing because it is too far out of spec.(14.9). There are 24 teeth on the gear that means 1 tooth off will give you 15 degrees off ie 14.9

 

I think that makes a lot sense because despite the cam lock tool fits perfectly on the exhaust cam, the intake cam can still be off, which will be picked up by the cam position sensor on the INTAKE cam. Great tip on the reluctor pointing to 3 o'clock. I found a perfect pic to illustrate your point. 

 

One thing not clear to me though. Cam deviation is measured in crank degrees, right? So 15 crank degrees = 7 degrees cam...not quite one tooth (15 cam degrees),

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Ahsai

[dporto]

7 hours ago, Porschetech3 said:

Deporto, your problem seems to be just a high mileage issue. 5670hrs? Don't know how many miles or if this is original motor or it has been refreshed or not but if not it is around 200k? Your cam deviations are just a little out of specs probably due to normal wear on the chains , pads, guides. Refresh of your timing components amd retime will probably cure this fault.

High miles indeed! 147,xxx.xx. I think it's a replacement motor, as it's a M96-04 and the car is a '99 C4. Although I'd rather not have to change out the pads etc. they are wear items, so at some point I've got to face the music. I suppose I've got to start researching how to do the job. Whether it's possible with the engine in the car - or just not worth the hassle? Also, sourcing all the applicable tools, parts etc...As much as I like doing the work myself, it might be worth it to bring it to someone. This will take some thought/research...

[Porschetech3]

12 hours ago, Ahsai said:

 

I think that makes a lot sense because despite the cam lock tool fits perfectly on the exhaust cam, the intake cam can still be off, which will be picked up by the cam position sensor on the INTAKE cam. Great tip on the reluctor pointing to 3 o'clock. I found a perfect pic to illustrate your point. 

 

One thing not clear to me though. Cam deviation is measured in crank degrees, right? So 15 crank degrees = 7 degrees cam...not quite one tooth (15 cam degrees),

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cam deviations are displayed in cam degrees The adjuster/actuator can advance/retard intake cam timing 12.5 degrees(25 crank degrees)

The DME really has no way to monitor the exhaust cam timing, the cam setting procedure ASSUMES by setting the cam timing on the EXHAUST that the INTAKE timing will be at a certain value(if the cam-to cam chain,pads,adjuster are all in spec). The DME only monitors INTAKE cam setting and movement.

 

Ahsai, I have a pet project I would like you to be involved in. I saw from your oil temp control circuit your are just the electronics guru that can pull it off. I want a track friendly oil pressure warning light that can vary along with RPM's to catch oil pressure deviations at high RPMs. I think a lot of crank/rod failures happen with momentary dips in oil pressure that cannot be caught or seen while in high G-force situations.If you are running 5k-7k rpm's and your oil pressure keeps diping below 3 bar, it can't take that very many times before it will spin a bearing and/or break a rod. We can start a new thread for this.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Porschetech3

[Schnell Gelb]

23 hours ago, Porschetech3 said:

it should be pointing directly to 3 o'clock away from the head.

If you check the FSM this is not quite correct.

The FSM has a drawing showing the notch on the Intake cam slightly higher than horizontal.That drawing is in the epic Insight timing thread already linked. But I agree with you, that bothers me too because mine is exactly like the FSM drawing -it is not quite 3 ,more like 2.45. But as you mention the relationship between the Intake and Exhaust is Factory set by the divots and colored links. Mine is correct in terms of divots and colored links.So it must be other issues.Some links to explain to others follow.Note -use the adjustment tool 9612 NOT the lock tool 9634 to assess the alignment.Yes, use the silver and red tool ! If you look carefully at some of the photos you will see the very slightly misaligned Exhaust cam . Also note that Jake recommends -slacken the 4 adjuster bolts, adjust the Exh cam with the silver+red tool, micro -adjust the crank to align the pin hole(5/16" stubby drill bit but better is the TDC pin 9595 because it has a shoulder on it). Yes, this is the opposite way round to what is often recommended.The reason is that the cams are difficult to rotate(22mm wrench?) - so fix that first. The crank is easy - so do that last. This may also improve the 3p.m. /2.45p.m. problem with the Intake cam notch ?

BTW - where is Jake recently? I can understand why he abandoned the other Forums - but it is civilized here ! Thank you Mods!.

http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/717662-camshaft-orientation-pictures.html

http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/672370-engine-rebuild-part-3-the-finale-7.html

Edited April 2, 2017 by Schnell Gelb

[Schnell Gelb]

12 hours ago, Ahsai said:

Great tip on the reluctor pointing to 3 o'clock. I found a perfect pic to illustrate your point.

My deviation is 14.9 degrees - a world record? This is Crank degrees so at the Cam it is roughly 7.5 deg. That is impossible to detect by eye with the engine in place for Bank 1 on a Boxster.I had to slip my iphone inthe re to take a photo of it to see 'straight on' at the marks.

But I agree, the Cam cover has to come off. I suspect the Camshaft Position Sensor is failing or getting bad data as you suggest. How else could the engine run so smoothly and quietly and have a 14,9 deg deviation on one Bank ?

DHarn555 chased the Reluctor issue and JFP wisely commented that it would need a gross misalignment to make a difference. SO if this is the problem ,it should be easy to see - when I get the Camshaft Cover off.

[Schnell Gelb]

A separate Post to thank you all for your suggestions. I did not want this note of thanks to be buried in the mechanical minutiae . The 1341 code+Deviation involves so many variables that tackling this problem without your support would be very difficult.

As I mentioned to Dporto , I am writing a diy guide based on this saga to help others in future. A Thank you to the Forum. Obviously it is not finished yet ! I was slowed down by an AOS failure mentioned in a separate Thread.

 

[Porschetech3]

59 minutes ago, Schnell Gelb said:

Mine is correct in terms of divots and colored links.So it must be other issues.

 

Another suggestion that I have came across is that the adjusters are bank specific.I have seen them switched and also have seen a replacement installed that ended up with two bank 2 adjusters.This can cause the cam timing to be off up to 12.5 degrees even though the cam-to-cam and exhaust cam timing procedure was precisely followed.

 

If none of this is the case, I have one more WILD case I remember with this code. After an engine was improperly timed and grossly out of time. it was put back in time and this code was present. Timing was check and rechecked , adjuster was replaced with known good one, sensor was replaced with known good one, wiring all tested good. Cam deviations were ERRATIC. Engine ran great. Just for ****s and giggles I did a HARD RESET of the DME,ie disconnected the the positive battery cable and touched it to the negative side (grounding the positive to deplete all capacitors).This cured the problem evidently the DME had LEARNED some bad data that it would not turn lose of.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Porschetech3

[Schnell Gelb]

6 hours ago, Porschetech3 said:

BRILLIANT ,just Brilliant response. Thank you Porschetech.

JFP gives great advice but he makes 2 huge mistakes with my questions. He ignores the probability of my stupid mistakes - because he would not make such errors :-).

Accidentally switching the Variocam Actuators is(stupidly) possible. Yes, I note the 2 banks have different part numbers.

99610505- 158 (1-3) & 99610505 -358 (4-6) Be careful with the year to year variations and check if the new part includes the solenoid !

http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=986-97-04&section=103-10

The hard reset of the DME is a great idea.Compared to the alternative remedies.....But I think a new Post is required for a Hard Reset - First , do no harm ! Here is a link to the only "Porsche Bosch Motronic 7.2 Hard Reset" search item I found .It is for a 997 (7.8 DME?)so may not apply ?Confusingly it does not mention touching the negative terminal of the battery with the positive battery cable terminal  to discharge the capacitors .Why?

Here is Post from Loren that suggest the "Hard Reset" will not work ?

http://rennlist.com/how-tos/a/porsche-997-how-to-reset-ecu-387425

This is why I am writing a diy guide for this to get ll the info in one place for others to use in future.

 

"Another suggestion that I have came across is that the adjusters are bank specific.I have seen them switched and also have seen a replacement installed that ended up with two bank 2 adjusters.This can cause the cam timing to be off up to 12.5 degrees even though the cam-to-cam and exhaust cam timing procedure was precisely followed.

 

If none of this is the case, I have one more WILD case I remember with this code. After and engine was improperly timed and grossly out of time. it was put back in time and this code was present. Timing was check and rechecked , adjuster was replaced with known good one, sensor was replaced with known good one, wiring all tested good. Cam deviations were ERRATIC. Just for ****s and giggles I did a HARD RESET of the DME,ie disconnected the the positive battery cable and touched it to the negative side (grounding the positive to deplete all capacitors).This cured the problem evidently the DME had LEARNED some bad data that it would not turn lose of."

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Schnell Gelb

[Ahsai]

10 hours ago, Porschetech3 said:

Cam deviations are displayed in cam degrees The adjuster/actuator can advance/retard intake cam timing 12.5 degrees(25 crank degrees)

The DME really has no way to monitor the exhaust cam timing, the cam setting procedure ASSUMES by setting the cam timing on the EXHAUST that the INTAKE timing will be at a certain value(if the cam-to cam chain,pads,adjuster are all in spec). The DME only monitors INTAKE cam setting and movement.

 

Ahsai, I have a pet project I would like you to be involved in. I saw from your oil temp control circuit your are just the electronics guru that can pull it off. I want a track friendly oil pressure warning light that can vary along with RPM's to catch oil pressure deviations at high RPMs. I think a lot of crank/rod failures happen with momentary dips in oil pressure that cannot be caught or seen while in high G-force situations.If you are running 5k-7k rpm's and your oil pressure keeps diping below 3 bar, it can't take that very many times before it will spin a bearing and/or break a rod. We can start a new thread for this.

 

Porschetech, are you sure cam deviation is reported as cam degrees? The reason is the WSM mentions cam deviation is reported in degrees "crk", which I take it as crank angle. All the other angle related values such as timing advance is also in degrees "crk", Durametric also indicates the value in degrees "crk".

 

Re the warning indicator you want to build should not be too difficult. You will need to tap the signal from the "G" pin of the sensor, which connects directly to the instrument cluster (as an input to the oil pressure gauge). Then you have to figure out the signal to pressure mapping by observing the signal while changing the oil pressure. To pick up the rev, you can get the 12v square wave signal from pin 9 of the OBDII socket. The frequency of that signal indicates the number of ignitions per second. Then you will need a circuit to combine the two signal with the correct logic to trigger the warning light (e.g., when pressure < 3bar and rev> 5k, trigger the light).

[Schnell Gelb]

Crank vs Cam degrees - Everything I have read says Crank degrees. So half that for Cam degrees. That is why even 14.9 degrees(crank)  is hard see on the cam unless you are looking at it directly with the engine on a stand in good light with a straigtedge.

The suggestion to use the adjustment tool 9612 is of no use if the engine is in the car - there is no space to use it  or 9634! But there is space for LN Engineering  9686 aka 'Alignment Gauge' or the half length version that just checks alignment but does not hold down the Inlet can.

For those removing the Cam Cover -refer to this helpful Thread for the bolt sequence:

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Schnell Gelb

[Schnell Gelb]

I can confirm that the Bank 1 Camshaft Cover on a 2001 Boxster S can be removed with the engine in place.

No force required - just lower the front of the engine(&support it) as much as possible on the engine mount studs. Some carefully wiggling is required but it came out. Glad I used the correct seal because there are very few strong pry points on the cam cover.

 

[Ahsai]

On 4/1/2017 at 9:15 AM, Porschetech3 said:

 

So was the actuator swapped with bank 2 by mistake

Edited April 2, 2017 by Ahsai

[Schnell Gelb]

No.

I can clearly see my marking on the Actuator made when I dismantled the engine "1-3" on the side.

So probably a bad Actuator ?

The Actuator was in the correct position when I removed the cam cover. It was at full travel away from the crankshaft.I tested it by using a prybar to gently force it in the opposite direction.It moved smoothly. I removed the Solenoid,Plenty of clean oil.The plunger moves smoothly and the small piston in the base of the Actuator(that the Solenoid pushes on) also moves smoothly in it's bore. That piston looks like Porsche considered fitting an 'O' ring - there is an anular groove in the middle .I can not find any  Parts Diagram that shows this little piston to check if it should have a seal.It should be with Item #10 on this diagram?

http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=986-97-04&section=103-10

 

  As yet I have no clue about the cause of the  huge Deviation problem.I had speculated that maybe the plastic pads had fallen off or broken but all looks perfect.

I'll take the cams off to get the old Actuator off the Ex to Inlet sprocket chain. Unfortunately there are no bench tests for the Actuator that are definitive. Maybe some obstruction of the oilway?

[Porschetech3]

The actuator for bank 1 should have a casting on it that says ZYL 1-3 between the solenoid and the pad.. the lower pad (or inward pad) should have 2 small holes and a green o-ring on it. the upper (or outer) pad does not. The bank 2 side will be opposite.

[Porschetech3]

21 hours ago, Ahsai said:

 

Porschetech, are you sure cam deviation is reported as cam degrees?).

 

 

Well I was sure at the time I said it.. but now not so much !!! lol ... I will go look at my PST2 and see.. I mainly used the PST2 on 996 and 986 because it does many more functions and special actions than even the newer PIWIS or PIWISII . I can say that I haven't really used the Durametric but a couple times a friend has one that I looked at with him on his car.

[Ahsai]

26 minutes ago, Porschetech3 said:

The actuator for bank 1 should have a casting on it that says ZYL 1-3 between the solenoid and the pad.. the lower pad (or inward pad) should have 2 small holes and a green o-ring on it. the upper (or outer) pad does not. The bank 2 side will be opposite.

Yup, you can see that "Zyl 1-3" in the pelican photo I posted above.

[Ahsai]

1 hour ago, Schnell Gelb said:

No.

I can clearly see my marking on the Actuator made when I dismantled the engine "1-3" on the side.

So probably a bad Actuator ?

The Actuator was in the correct position when I removed the cam cover. It was at full travel away from the crankshaft.I tested it by using a prybar to gently force it in the opposite direction.It moved smoothly. I removed the Solenoid,Plenty of clean oil.The plunger moves smoothly and the small piston in the base of the Actuator(that the Solenoid pushes on) also moves smoothly in it's bore. That piston looks like Porsche considered fitting an 'O' ring - there is an anular groove in the middle .I can not find any  Parts Diagram that shows this little piston to check if it should have a seal.It should be with Item #10 on this diagram?

http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=986-97-04&section=103-10

 

  As yet I have no clue about the cause of the  huge Deviation problem.I had speculated that maybe the plastic pads had fallen off or broken but all looks perfect.

I'll take the cams off to get the old Actuator off the Ex to Inlet sprocket chain. Unfortunately there are no bench tests for the Actuator that are definitive. Maybe some obstruction of the oilway?

Bench test the solenoid yet? There should not be any o-ring for the plunger.

[Schnell Gelb]

Confirm - yes ZYL 1-3 also marked with a partial part # 996 105 051.

Confirm - pad with 2 holes is on the bottom of the Actuator.

Confirm - 12v to the Solenoid via a MOM switch makes the plunger jump but no "click".Perhaps the Click on Bank 2(the good Bank) is just the chain noise? Nevertheless it seems a strong push. Solenoid shows 13 ohms - per spec.

Now it may get interesting - remember I was hunting for stupid error opportunities - I found one.

The Solenoid plunger acts on a piston in the Actuator .This piston is 44mm long and acts as a valve to  direct oil pressure to pump  the actuator in one direction or the other. Problem - the piston is reversible. Which way around should it be fitted? It fits both ways. Yes it matters because the piston is not symmetrical. The piston is shaped roughly like a barbell - a rod with a circular plate at each end. The ends are different in 2 respects. One end plate is much thicker and has a 4mm deep 'divot' dead center of the outer face. The other end is plain and slimmer. Which end should face the Solenoid ? Sorta looks like the divot is for the Solenoid plunger to engage in but the divot is so deep(4mm) it would take all the travel of the Solenoid plunger. . But it was installed the other way around.The plain end has a witness mark where the plunger was pushing.

There is one other big difference. Roughly mid way along the rod  there are 2 flanges  but they are offset from the middle of the rod. They are further away from the  end with the divot. Suppose this piston was installed the wrong way around ?

The barbell-like piston acts like a shuttle valve and directs oil into the Actuator .It is controlled by the Solenoid. So if the Solenoid is perfect but this piston is the wrong way around, the Actuator will not operate correctly. Inside the bore of the Actuator there are 3 ports for oil flow .

Anyone have an unmolested Actuator they can check? Just look for the 'divot' .

I'll try to add some photos because I am sure this piston could be a problem for others. It easily falls out and has no markings to know which way it should go .

I may just go to the Dealer and ask to inspect one.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Schnell Gelb

[Porschetech3]

8 minutes ago, Schnell Gelb said:

Confirm - yes ZYL 1-3 also marked with a partial part # 996 105 051.

Confirm - pad with 2 holes is on the bottom of the Actuator.

Confirm - 12v to the Solenoid via a MOM switch makes the plunger jump but no "click".Perhaps the Click on Bank 2(the good Bank) is just the chain noise? Nevertheless it seems a strong push. Solenoid shows 13 ohms - per spec.

Now it may get interesting - remember I was hunting for stupid error opportunities - I found one.

The Solenoid plunger acts on a piston in the Actuator .This piston is 44mm long and acts as a valve to  direct oil pressure to pump  the actuator in one direction or the other. Problem - the piston is reversible. Which way around should it fit? Yes it matters because the piston is not symmetrical. The piston is shaped roughly like a barbell - a rod with a circular plate at each end. The ends are different in 2 respects. One is much thicker and has a deep 'divot' dead center of the outer face. The other end is plain. Which end should face the Solenoid ? Sorta looks like the divot is for the Solenoid plunger to engage in . But it was installed the other way around.

There is one other big difference. Roughly mid way along the rod  there are 2 flanges  but they are offset from the middle of the rod. They are further away from the  end with the divot. Suppose this piston was installed the wrong way around ?

The barbell-like piston acts like a shuttle valve and directs oil into the Actuator .It is controlled by the Solenoid. So if the Solenoid is perfect but this piston is the wrong way around, the Actuator will not operate correctly.

Anyone have an unmolested Actuator they can check? Just look for the 'divot' .If the Solenoid is still bolted to the Actuator -just look at the other end.

I'll try to add some photos because I am sure this piston could be a problem for others. It easily falls out and has no markings to know which way it should go .

 

 

I have probably close to a dozen of these in my basement.. I don't know which ones have not been "molested"..lol .I'll look at them and see if I can tell what your taking about and get a definitive answer.

[Porschetech3]

Quote

One is much thicker and has a deep 'divot' dead center of the outer face. The other end is plain. Which end should face the Solenoid ? Sorta looks like the divot is for the Solenoid plunger to engage in . But it was installed the other way around.

 

 

I just looked at one of the ones I have , I think the divot that you are talking about is actually a spring guide. There is a spring in the bottom that pushes the valve toward the solenoid.The valve installs with the recess pointing down toward the spring.

 

Is your spring still in there? And a plug in the bottom with a small hole? Take some pictures of the actuator in this valve area top and bottom.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Porschetech3

[Schnell Gelb]

Here is the piston showing the divot facing the Solenoid.I think this is the wrong way around?

[Schnell Gelb]

Plain end of piston

[Schnell Gelb]

Showing offset flanges in the piston. Note the plate at one end of the piston is thicker than at the opposite end.