HP Fuel Adaptation Value

[09CayennePepper]

Hello All,

 

Been around here for a bit though not often as this vehicle has been one of the most trouble free I have ever owned. 2009 Cayenne S, 105,000 miles. Never a major problem since I've owned it, couple of early issues dealer took care of. I have now reached a point where the thing has reached boat anchor status. Let me explain, lengthy.

Back in June 2016 I had an error code from the thermostat not closing and the engine not heating fast enough for the smog stuff to work. Surmised using my Durametric and then proceeded to replace the thermostat and while I was in there the water pump as well. After that was done about a week later I had the dreaded high pressure fuel pump go slowly out until it wouldn't run. Useful forum here with the step by step replacement guide, replaced pump, everything great except now I'm getting a 1025 code on the durametric, which doesn't have a description. Talked to Durametric, great bunch if you ever need to deal with them, and sent some data files to them and they responded that it appeared to be the High Pressure Fuel Adaptation Value #1 and it was too low. When I looked at it on the Durametric it reads a steady 0.69, below the normal range of 0.72-1.50. This one throws the check engine light and I need an inspection of the car (Houston, smog) and it won't pass. So after much investigation into this part of the operation of the engine I finally gave up and went to an indy (40 years Porsche experience, pretty much all he does) and he of course has the PIWIS and reads out the problems, and after getting the immobilizer codes and what not from Porsche reprograms the DME to see if that will fix the Adaptation problem and the value is now dynamic and is within the range. Fixes it for about 20 minutes of run time, CEL comes back on and the value has again dropped to 0.69 and static. Went out into the mechanic only forums and asked questions to whomever would listen and got nothing back. So now we are into late December and still no resolution but still working on it, new high pressure fuel sensor, initially did a complete fuel delivery test, passed, smoke tested the vacuum system, passed. High Pressure Fuel set point and actual values were tracking like they should but Adaptation is still stuck at 0,69. Then when the new year rolled over Porsche NA has now decided to take all the Cayenne programming ability (and files) away from indys so overnight the file for my car is gone off PIWIS. Hmmm, now what: the dreaded dealership is the only option. There are a few here in a big city and the indy knows that the guys at one dealership are more experienced (i.e. old) than the others so I take it to them on Feb 2 and the service writer assures me they will fix it. So 5 weeks later after the only interaction I had with him was when I drove the 25 miles to the dealership to see him in person (no returned voicemails, no messages returned) 3 times but hey if he can fix it it will all be worth it, right? At one point he thinks it is the gas because it "smells bad" so I let it go another week. I show up yesterday and he says "Good News, it's fixed!) and goes and gets the car says it's running great but as I get into it I see the CEL is still on. He says "Oh, forgot to reset that" Gets the diagnostic computer hooks it up and while he's clearing the code shows me the Fuel Trim Adaptation Values and says "see they're close to one another (Bank1 and 2) so we're all good. I'm thinking to myself....well you can imagine. So I get in and am going to drive back home, pick up the wife and go back to get her car that I had to leave at the dealer. Needless to say on the return trip to the dealer, guess what happens. CEL light comes on. Service Dept closed while I was on the way back so that wasn't an option and frankly I don't think they did a single thing to the car. At least it was no charge or I would have been fighting mad. So I get the Durametric back out today and notice that the HP Fuel setpoint is fine at 40.0k like it should be at idle but the Actual value is jumping all over the place - above and below the setpoint. Hmmm what the.... I looked at it closer and after revving it a few times it seems to be going up and down in a rhythm (which would explain the surging idle) with high points above setpoint and lows way down below the 10.0k point

 

So in summary does anyone, anywhere have any idea or have seen anything like this. I am trying to avoid the chasing it with parts much like the indy didn't want to start either. I'm going to have a conversation with the Service Manager at another (closer) dealership here that a friend knows this week and see if he has a clue and a course of action. Otherwise I'll have to put a chain on it and drag it down to the water.

 

[lewisweller]

8 hours ago, 09CayennePepper said:

Hello All,

 

Been around here for a bit though not often as this vehicle has been one of the most trouble free I have ever owned. 2009 Cayenne S, 105,000 miles. Never a major problem since I've owned it, couple of early issues dealer took care of. I have now reached a point where the thing has reached boat anchor status. Let me explain, lengthy.

Back in June 2016 I had an error code from the thermostat not closing and the engine not heating fast enough for the smog stuff to work. Surmised using my Durametric and then proceeded to replace the thermostat and while I was in there the water pump as well. After that was done about a week later I had the dreaded high pressure fuel pump go slowly out until it wouldn't run. Useful forum here with the step by step replacement guide, replaced pump, everything great except now I'm getting a 1025 code on the durametric, which doesn't have a description. Talked to Durametric, great bunch if you ever need to deal with them, and sent some data files to them and they responded that it appeared to be the High Pressure Fuel Adaptation Value #1 and it was too low. When I looked at it on the Durametric it reads a steady 0.69, below the normal range of 0.72-1.50. This one throws the check engine light and I need an inspection of the car (Houston, smog) and it won't pass. So after much investigation into this part of the operation of the engine I finally gave up and went to an indy (40 years Porsche experience, pretty much all he does) and he of course has the PIWIS and reads out the problems, and after getting the immobilizer codes and what not from Porsche reprograms the DME to see if that will fix the Adaptation problem and the value is now dynamic and is within the range. Fixes it for about 20 minutes of run time, CEL comes back on and the value has again dropped to 0.69 and static. Went out into the mechanic only forums and asked questions to whomever would listen and got nothing back. So now we are into late December and still no resolution but still working on it, new high pressure fuel sensor, initially did a complete fuel delivery test, passed, smoke tested the vacuum system, passed. High Pressure Fuel set point and actual values were tracking like they should but Adaptation is still stuck at 0,69. Then when the new year rolled over Porsche NA has now decided to take all the Cayenne programming ability (and files) away from indys so overnight the file for my car is gone off PIWIS. Hmmm, now what: the dreaded dealership is the only option. There are a few here in a big city and the indy knows that the guys at one dealership are more experienced (i.e. old) than the others so I take it to them on Feb 2 and the service writer assures me they will fix it. So 5 weeks later after the only interaction I had with him was when I drove the 25 miles to the dealership to see him in person (no returned voicemails, no messages returned) 3 times but hey if he can fix it it will all be worth it, right? At one point he thinks it is the gas because it "smells bad" so I let it go another week. I show up yesterday and he says "Good News, it's fixed!) and goes and gets the car says it's running great but as I get into it I see the CEL is still on. He says "Oh, forgot to reset that" Gets the diagnostic computer hooks it up and while he's clearing the code shows me the Fuel Trim Adaptation Values and says "see they're close to one another (Bank1 and 2) so we're all good. I'm thinking to myself....well you can imagine. So I get in and am going to drive back home, pick up the wife and go back to get her car that I had to leave at the dealer. Needless to say on the return trip to the dealer, guess what happens. CEL light comes on. Service Dept closed while I was on the way back so that wasn't an option and frankly I don't think they did a single thing to the car. At least it was no charge or I would have been fighting mad. So I get the Durametric back out today and notice that the HP Fuel setpoint is fine at 40.0k like it should be at idle but the Actual value is jumping all over the place - above and below the setpoint. Hmmm what the.... I looked at it closer and after revving it a few times it seems to be going up and down in a rhythm (which would explain the surging idle) with high points above setpoint and lows way down below the 10.0k point

 

So in summary does anyone, anywhere have any idea or have seen anything like this. I am trying to avoid the chasing it with parts much like the indy didn't want to start either. I'm going to have a conversation with the Service Manager at another (closer) dealership here that a friend knows this week and see if he has a clue and a course of action. Otherwise I'll have to put a chain on it and drag it down to the water.

 

You said you checked the fuel system, I'm assuming this included the low pressure delivery and flow as well? Has the fuel filter been replaced at all? 

[09CayennePepper]

Thanks for the reply Lewis. Yes the low pressure fuel delivery was fully checked, a new regulator was installed before all of this started. The high pressure side was checked too, the indy decided that one of the most sensible replacements would be the hp sensor on the fuel rail so he did that. But he did an extensive lp test according to the book and everything checked out good.

 

[09CayennePepper]

It runs fine except for the lope when it's cold, that smooths out all but faintly when it warms. Normal driving you don't notice anything wrong but a quick WOT will give it a slight cough and then it comes on like it is supposed to, fun filled.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Your high pressure fuel pump is fried. Dealing with it right now 09 CS. Same issues. You noticing a smell of burnt plastic as well, by chance? Drivers side engine bay, rear.


2009 Cayenne S

[09CayennePepper]

Brand new High Pressure Fuel Pump. 

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Odd. And both your fuel pumps are new? The pump on the right feeds the call from the higher pressure system.


2009 Cayenne S

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

New hpfp clutch and cam stopper?


2009 Cayenne S

[09CayennePepper]

LP fuel pumps aren't new but system was thoroughly pressure and flow tested. First thing the indy did. New clutch and $40 plastic cam stopper, sold separately.

[lewisweller]

4 hours ago, 09CayennePepper said:

LP fuel pumps aren't new but system was thoroughly pressure and flow tested. First thing the indy did. New clutch and $40 plastic cam stopper, sold separately.

This stinks of a fuel filter blockage despite your lp tests. You change the regulator but the filters do get clogged with thick black filter paper yuck. Your set point looks to be hunting for fuel delivery and then over compensating.  

 

A caution to add to this is some owners have had the lp fuel pump(s) tested OK but intermittently fail or underperformed in certain circumstances ie low fuel level or hot/cold weather running. A real hard one to diagnose unless your lucky enough to catch it when it's failing during test. 

A scope and amp clamp set up to measure current of the lp pumps is the best way to detect even a possible intermittent fault. I wish I had a scope like the pico four channel. 

 

Maybe its totally fine fuel wise and we're thinking about this the wrong way? 

[09CayennePepper]

At this point I'm willing to try something. If I'm going to start parts chasing I guess the filter is as good a place as any to start. I'll hit the pumps next, if oil would get over $60 a barrel I would do both of them now. 

It may be fine but gotta start somewhere and this seems to be a logical step based on your logic of the hp fuel pump being erratic. Makes sense to me anyway.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Keep us posted. I'm on the opposite end of the parts chase having just done both pumps, filter and regulator this week. Was HOPING that was it. While she runs much better, I'm still getting hesitation/misfires when I give it heavy throttle. I'm hoping simply replacing the cam stopper solves my problem as I smelled burning plastic from the rear of bank 2 right before all hell broke loose. My hypothesis is that the failing low pressure pumps created stress on the hpfp causing it (cam stopper) to do it's job and fail. Any chance I'm on to something or is the HPFP simply shot? 

[09CayennePepper]

In my research I found that when its gone its gone. Mine stumbled for a couple of days and then would not start, at all. The plastic part is merely a way to get the cam drive on while trying to stab the pump onto the mount. If it has disintegrated it may have caused other problems with the pump but I'm not sure. Mine was in about five pieces, had to assemble the puzzle when I got the parts out to make sure I had all of them. Mirror and an angled pick got it all out. That HP pump is pretty solid so I'm not sure that any lack of fuel from the back end would cause it any harm but who knows. And it's pricey too.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Roger that. I'm now 99.9% certain it's my HPFP. I'm no longer in denial. So, out of curiosity given the past WA29 campaign, I called Porsche NA yesterday and told them my situation and asked what my present options might be; if any. Without much hesitation, the nice man acknowledged my pain and offered a $500 Porsche voucher to help with the cost. I'll be ordering a rebuilt unit (-GX ) once the voucher arrives next week. Not bad support for an out of warranty 09 S with 150k miles!


2009 Cayenne S

[09CayennePepper]

Wow that is exceptional. I didn't even give it a thought because of age and miles. Good for you. You'll be up and running before you know it. Not sure if you can do it or how the voucher works but I have been getting genuine Porsche parts from a dealer in North Carolina, Paramount. Their prices beat everyone and I mean EVERYONE and they are vin # driven, have a Porsche guy check compatibility and are generally good to work with. You ought to give them a look, https://store.paramountauto.com/auto-parts/porsche

 

 

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Wow that is exceptional. I didn't even give it a thought because of age and miles. Good for you. You'll be up and running before you know it. Not sure if you can do it or how the voucher works but I have been getting genuine Porsche parts from a dealer in North Carolina, Paramount. Their prices beat everyone and I mean EVERYONE and they are vin # driven, have a Porsche guy check compatibility and are generally good to work with. You ought to give them a look, https://store.paramountauto.com/auto-parts/porsche
 
 

Love this place. Lots of window shopping on their website. Been waiting to need something from them and think now is the time. I hope they take the voucher. Their rebuilt pump incl. core charge is the most affordable I've found by roughly 20%. Pricing out rotors and brakes as well and had to do a double take to make sure they were really that affordable...


2009 Cayenne S

[Multistrada]

It actually sounds similar to a problem I had with my 944. The fuel pump died and was replaced. Then the car started having surging issues at wot. It turns out the fuel filter was clogged which fried the pump, the pressure regulator and pulse damper. The shop found it by taking it for a drive with a pressure gauge on the fuel rail.

[09CayennePepper]

Well that wasn't it. Changed the fuel filter and the HP fuel actuals are still bouncing all over the place.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

I feel your pain. My guess is the regulator and both low pressure pumps are on their last legs. Did you do a flow test on your low pressure system?


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[09CayennePepper]

Pressure and Flow tests on LP system were perfect. 

 

Still getting 1025 from Durametric, while it doesn't tell what it is, the guys from Durametric say it is the High Pressure Fuel Adaptation 1 and that is what the actual values are telling me. Value is 0.69 when it should be 0.72 or higher.

Edited March 23, 2017 by 09CayennePepper

[09CayennePepper]

Unless it's the HP pump I don't think it is a fuel problem anymore, has to be some sensor somewhere that is causing the adaptation to go really low or is throwing a signal that the adaptation needs to be low.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

FYI - Doing my HPFP tomorrow morning. Talked to Porsche today. They recommend throttle adaptation and engine torque loss adaptation after hpfp replacement. Function found under DME using PIWIS tester.



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[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Don't think my durametric can perform an engine torque loss adaptation. Throttle adaptation, yes.


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[09CayennePepper]

Hmmm, I'll check with the indy (good relationship now) and see what he says. I know that to do the fuel adaptation it requires the immobiliser code. That's not something to mess with, even he was very, very careful when doing it and the value had to come from Porsche NA. I have mine now but wouldn't dream of using it, a $4000 DME isn't in my plans to replace.

The pump isn't that hard to install, just tight space for one of the bolts. I had the intake off of mine to do the thermostat and water pump so it was really not bad at all. Just make sure you get all the broken plastic pieces out of there.

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

INFORMATION:
- If it is not possible to drive at the specified speeds, the adaptation ranges 1 and 2 can also be achieved by increasing the engine load relative to the
specified speed. A defined fuel throughput must be achieved for the adaptation to be completed.- The specified time stipulation of 15 sec. is cumulative, i.e. the time may also be broken down into 5 + 5 + 5 seconds, for example. 6. Fuel high-pressure adaptation range 1 must be reached: gradually approach the speed range of 60 - 85 km/h (40 - 55 mph) and maintain this for at least 15 sec. The Tester indicates when the value changes upwards or downwards by 1.00. >> This completes the adaptation of range 1. INFORMATION:
- If it is not possible to drive at the specified speeds, the adaptation ranges 1 and 2 can also be achieved by increasing the engine load relative to the
specified speed. A defined fuel throughput must be achieved for the adaptation to be completed. - The specified time stipulation of 15 sec. is cumulative, i.e. the time may also be broken down into 5 + 5 + 5 seconds, for example. 7. Fuel high-pressure adaptation range 2 must be completed: gradually approach the speed range of 120 - 140 km/h (75 - 90 mph) and maintain this for at least 15 sec. The Tester indicates when the value changes upwards or downwards by 1.00. >> This completes the adaptation of range 2. 8. Fuel high-pressure adaptation of range 3, 4, 5 These ranges do not need to be achieved for the adaptation drive. 8.1. Range 3 requires constant driving for 15 sec. in the speed range of 210 - 220 km/h (130 - 140 mph). >> Not required for the adaptation drive.
8.2. Range 4 requires multiple full-load acceleration, each time for approx. 10 sec. at an engine speed of more than 4000 rpm. >> Not required for the adaptation drive. 8.3. Range 5 is only for V8 turbo engines. Multiple full-load acceleration, each time for approx. 10 sec. at an engine speed of more than 5000 rpm. >> Not required for the adaptation drive. 9. Once ranges 1 and 2 have been adapted, the values must be between 0.75 and 1.25. If the values are less than 0.75 or greater than 1.25, a fault is recorded.


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