Alternative Transfer Case Fluid?

[deilenberger]

5 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

There are factory spec ranges for each value that are designed to be used as wear characteristics to determine when service is required, much like useful tread depth on tires.

 

Can you perhaps share what those values are?

[JFP in PA]

I'm currently away from the shop for a few days, so no, I cannot help you at this time, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

[the head]

I will be changing with the same oil - Motul DCTF.  I'm not sure if Pelican sells it or not. 

[deilenberger]

20 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

I'm currently away from the shop for a few days, so no, I cannot help you at this time, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

 

There is certainly no rush on it - I'm just curious if there is ANY documentation on what the values mean, and where they come from. I had assumed the V40 measurement was done as a resistance measurement through the oil - more metal in the oil = more wear, but now I'm not so sure.  Since they do give a max value as an indication the oil should be changed - it doesn't seem like it would be just a calculated value - that could be made mileage dependent fairly easily.  But - the fact that they have you reset it to 0 after changing the oil - almost makes me think it's calculating the torque (a measurement of force) that has gone through the transfer case.

 

Mystery. That is the only mention of that value in the service manual, and none of the other values are ever mentioned.

[ChrisFu]

Well count me in, thanks to this thread I am fairly sure we have a failing transfer case on my wife's recently purchased 1-owner 958 V6 6MT (105k miles - her dream car since shes a manual lover like me and cant buy a decent stick SUV anymore).

 

As I was unfamiliar with Cayenne drivetrain issues, my research made me believe our symptoms were that of the 955/957 cardan shaft which is a thankfully much less expensive fix. Reading the descriptions here and I am almost certain its transfer case related instead.

 

Slow speed sharp turns result in what feels like a truck stuck in 4WD low maneuvering in a parking lot, a significant binding and noisy feeling. In a straight line the effect is less pronounced, more of a thumping hesitation in 3rd and 4th gear during harder acceleration, however essentially undetectable in 1st/2nd and 5th/6th.

 

I had planned on taking it in tomorrow for a diagnositc at a local Porsche shop, but now will try a fluid change (Ravenol TF-0870) tomorrow instead

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3NWHGHN360KCD

 

Will report back with any results. 

 

Any tricks to the fluid swap? Seemed pretty straight forward in the service manual: Elevate car, remove top plug, remove bottom plug, drain until empty, then refill.

[deilenberger]

3 hours ago, ChrisFu said:

Well count me in, thanks to this thread I am fairly sure we have a failing transfer case on my wife's recently purchased 1-owner 958 V6 6MT (105k miles - her dream car since shes a manual lover like me and cant buy a decent stick SUV anymore).

 

As I was unfamiliar with Cayenne drivetrain issues, my research made me believe our symptoms were that of the 955/957 cardan shaft which is a thankfully much less expensive fix. Reading the descriptions here and I am almost certain its transfer case related instead.

 

Slow speed sharp turns result in what feels like a truck stuck in 4WD low maneuvering in a parking lot, a significant binding and noisy feeling. In a straight line the effect is less pronounced, more of a thumping hesitation in 3rd and 4th gear during harder acceleration, however essentially undetectable in 1st/2nd and 5th/6th.

 

I had planned on taking it in tomorrow for a diagnositc at a local Porsche shop, but now will try a fluid change (Ravenol TF-0870) tomorrow instead

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3NWHGHN360KCD

 

Will report back with any results. 

 

Any tricks to the fluid swap? Seemed pretty straight forward in the service manual: Elevate car, remove top plug, remove bottom plug, drain until empty, then refill.

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds.

 

What year is your wife's Cayenne?  Just curious.

 

And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is..  funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?"  I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix.  Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem.  Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem.

 

BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair.

 

BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

Edited March 21, 2017 by deilenberger

[ChrisFu]

1 hour ago, deilenberger said:

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds.

 

What year is your wife's Cayenne?  Just curious.

 

And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is..  funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?"  I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix.  Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem.  Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem.

 

BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair.

 

BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

 

Cayenne is 2012, purchased from a very high volume Porsche dealer cross country and shipped (we never test drove it, first time Ive ever purchased a car this way). Sure enough, I noticed the bucking problem right away, however it was slight at the time and has progressively become more noticeable.

 

Strangely enough some days it almost disappears, and some days its rather extreme. Does not correlate with ambient temperature, drive duration, or any other factor save perhaps extra low speed steering time seemed to exacerbate the problem this weekend.

 

Drained the fluid tonight and have images below. I have seen and smelled worse, but this is pretty dark stuff. No large visible particulate in suspension based on a drip curtain test.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by ChrisFu

[deilenberger]

Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out.  My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid.

 

I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

[the head]

Curious as well.  Mine was most grabby in slow, sharp turns like parking lots.  And 3rd and 4th gear were the worst going straight as well.  Still no issues after my oil change = I'm driving it daily until the next change this weekend just to be sure.

[steph280]

2 hours ago, the head said:

Curious as well.  Mine was most grabby in slow, sharp turns like parking lots.  And 3rd and 4th gear were the worst going straight as well.  Still no issues after my oil change = I'm driving it daily until the next change this weekend just to be sure.

So you are doing the second fluid change as a precaution to clear out any remaining oil?

 

My indy shop is slammed so I can't get anything done until Thursday.  Is it safe to drive the car for now, or is it going to cause more wear?

[ChrisFu]

9 hours ago, deilenberger said:

Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out.  My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid.

 

I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

 

The smell is definitely of "toasted" hydrocarbons, but not as "burnt" as I have smelled from some really bad differential oil changes before (smelled up my whole garage for a week). That being said, those were totally different gear oils as I have never drained an automatic transmission or gearbox that used ATF prior to this so maybe it is indeed on the same level.

 

ill try to snap a side-by-side of the new oil vs used this afternoon. Also likely going to send some to Blackstone.

[ChrisFu]

Good news to report; I appear to have the same success!

 

Immediately after the fluid swap I took the Cayenne on a spin to a local industrial park and first of all noticed nearly no detectable stumble through 3rd and 4th (a new experience for me in this car!) on the way over. I followed that by tight figure 8s through a commercial parking lot for 10 minutes or so with no binding, lurch, shudder or anything. This appears to have remedied the 90-95% symptoms immediately, so I guess I will wait with bated breath to determine the longevity of the fix.

 

Below you can see the immense difference in new fluid color versus what is probably the original lube after 109k miles.

 

Also, the Ravenol bottle actually has a very handy dispenser that I used in lieu of the OTC Syringe (the tubing included with the syringe was actually too large to fit into the inspection plug hole, whereas the Ravenol was a smaller OD and fit perfectly).

Edited March 22, 2017 by ChrisFu

[deilenberger]

Very nice Chris. Please keep us informed on how well it holds up, and I'll be quite interested to hear what Blackstone has to say..

[Quickster2]

I see the Ravenol meets the spec for the Porsche 000-043-301-36 / 00004330136 for Cayenne Transfer Case oil I am curious what the difference might be in the -63 "new" spec. x-fer case oil? In mid-April I will install the -63 oil which will be at 70K miles with 5K miles on the original spec. oil. I figure $60 in fluids is cheap insurance. I'll try to duplicate the pictures Chris shared as a comparison at that time. 

[good hands]

Another victim here. Subscribed to this thread with hope I can just change the oil.

[the head]

On 3/21/2017 at 9:34 AM, steph280 said:

So you are doing the second fluid change as a precaution to clear out any remaining oil?

 

My indy shop is slammed so I can't get anything done until Thursday.  Is it safe to drive the car for now, or is it going to cause more wear?

 

Yes, just making sure I get as much of the old fluid that was stuck in the clutch pack and pump out of it.

[the head]

Changed the fluid again today after 2 weeks and glad I did.  I'll post pics later on.  Only a slightly burned smell but the oil was dark brown.  So if you change the fluid I recommend a follow-up flush a week or two later.  Still running perfect!

Edited March 25, 2017 by the head

[deilenberger]

3 hours ago, the head said:

Changed the fluid again today after 2 weeks and glad I did.  I'll post pics later on.  Only a slightly burned smell but the oil was dark brown.  So if you change the fluid I recommend a follow-up flush a week or two later.  Still running perfect!

 

Thanks MUCH for the followup. I imagine some debris was still trapped in the clutch assembly. It may take yet another oil change to fully flush it out.  I'd wait a few thousand miles for that one.

[pastorom]

Changed my TC oil last Friday as well. Similar observations as you, Chris. 2011 CTT with 93k miles. I did this because i have the "crunching acorns" noise when i make left turns from a halt, or slow left turns, and figured changing the fluids out before i sprung for a TC replacement. 

 

While the noise was gone after my first few rides, it does seem to be back. It's fairly random, and it *seems* to be less frequent, but that might just be the placebo effect. I'm going to follow the advice above and change the fluid again after a couple weeks/hundred miles or so. 

 

I changed all my fluid this weekend (with the exception of the ATF) and the TC was by far the easiest, with the rear diff being a close second. So given how easy this is, curious to know is there's a downside to changing the TC fluid more frequently to potentially help with the issues noted? 

[deilenberger]

pastorom (Name?)

 

What oil did you refill it with?  There may be some difference. Back in the old days of mechanical limited slip rear-drives - BMW ones with limited slip required either special lubricants, or an additive (GM made one for Corvettes that was widely used in other vehicles) - to prevent the stiction sort of noises/feeling you're describing in the limited slip clutch pack.  The transfer case clutch pack is much the same as the limited slip ones were - a multiplate oil soaked clutch.

 

I suspect some of the transfer-case oils may work better with the multiplate clutch in the Porsche transfer case than others. Hence my curiosity on what oil you used.

 

And if you were facing TC replacement anyway - you would have nothing to loose by trying the GM additive package (most NAPA auto-parts stores keep it in stock.)

[pastorom]

Sorry, missed this in my original post. I used Redline D4 ATF for the TC fluid. 

[deilenberger]

18 minutes ago, pastorom said:

Sorry, missed this in my original post. I used Redline D4 ATF for the TC fluid. 

Might I suggest you use Ravenol (talked about above) or gasp.. the Porsche stuff (with the new PN - from Sunset Porsche web-order about $45 + $12 shipping.) People have had success using Ravenol - the Redline is IMHO - an unknown (even if they do recommend it - I have been disappointed in some of their other recommended oils - like the transmission lube they recommended for an E46/M3 BMW..)

[ChrisFu]

17 hours ago, pastorom said:

Sorry, missed this in my original post. I used Redline D4 ATF for the TC fluid. 

 

I don't think Redline D4 has the proper friction modifiers for the clutch pack transfer case, and I dont see TF 0870 compatibility listed on the specs.

 

So maybe dont give up hope just yet; I'd try another change with Ravenol TF 0870, Porsche 000-043-301-36, Porsche 000-043-305-63, or Motul DTCF and see if you note an improvement.

Edited March 28, 2017 by ChrisFu

[pastorom]

17 hours ago, deilenberger said:

Might I suggest you use Ravenol (talked about above) or gasp.. the Porsche stuff (with the new PN - from Sunset Porsche web-order about $45 + $12 shipping.) People have had success using Ravenol - the Redline is IMHO - an unknown (even if they do recommend it - I have been disappointed in some of their other recommended oils - like the transmission lube they recommended for an E46/M3 BMW..)

 

5 hours ago, ChrisFu said:

 

I don't think Redline D4 has the proper friction modifiers for the clutch pack transfer case, and I dont see TF 0870 compatibility listed on the specs.

 

So maybe dont give up hope just yet; I'd try another change with Ravenol TF 0870, Porsche 000-043-301-36, Porsche 000-043-305-63, or Motul DTCF and see if you note an improvement.

 

Ya, I think that's what i'll do next. I've had great experiences with Redline in my 955 CT and BMW E39 M5, and i had a few unopened bottles handy, so i figured it was worth a shot. Will try the Ravenol next and report back when i've changed it out. Thanks guys!

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by pastorom

[deilenberger]

A strong recommendation to anyone with a Cayenne:

 

Make a transfer-case (TC) oil change a regular maintenance item.

 

I'd suggest every 30,000 miles, and checking the oil every oil change when the car is up on the lift.

 

Doing a TC oil change on a lift will add about 10 minutes to the time spent changing the engine oil. Perhaps less. The TC drain and fill plugs are RIGHT THERE IN YOUR FACE - you actually could touch both of them with your nose if you were so inclined. Nothing in the way, lots of access, nothing has to be removed. I'll add a photo taken from underneath when I have a chance.. but there is no reason to not change the oil.

 

We now have 4 people who were experiencing TC symptoms - told by Porsche they needed new TC's - who have changed their oil and no longer are experiencing ANY symptoms. We have one person who changed their TC oil and his symptoms were reduced but not eliminated - but - he didn't use a recommended oil, or even an oil that the oil manufacturer suggested for the use. He is going to change it again using one of the recommended oils.

 

My own experience: My '11 Twin-Turbo didn't exhibit the symptoms other people had. The common symptom is a roughness in accelerating and some popping/clicking noises from under the car. Mine had a tiny bit of unevenness on acceleration - but not so much that I thought it abnormal. I have 72,300 miles on the CTT.

I changed the oil today - putting in the new part# Porsche oil. It was available from SunsetPorscheParts.com - they had the best price (around $45 + shipping.) Local dealer wanted $75 for it.

 

I did it on a lift since I have a friendly independent who was interested. It took longer to set the lift up to lift the Cayenne then it did to change the oil.

What drained out was black. It had a slight burned odor to it, but not really strong. It didn't smell like gear oil, or the oil that was going in. It seemed rather thin. There was no sign of water contamination.  I've saved a sample to send to Blackstone to analyze.

 

As to what causes the oil breakdown - I suspect several items: One is heat. There is a small deflector right under the TC that is there to direct air up over the case and cool it. There has to be a reason for that deflector. I wonder if failures happen more often in warmer climates? The other may simply be use. The design is such that the clutch is ALWAYS partly engaged - and always slipping. That's how power is transferred from the rear to the front or rear to front. If someone drives in situations where they do a lot of turning - that will cause more slippage of the clutch as the ratio of front/rear torque changes. If someone has partly worn tires on one axle - that will cause continual slippage as the system adjusts the difference in rotation speed of the tires.  ALL of these situations do two things - wear the clutch - and heat up the transfer case. Excessive heat is certainly indicated on TC's where people have reported a burned smell in the old oil.

 

The new oil had the usual gear-oil sort of smell (sulphur) and was a light golden color.  Took about 2 minutes to pump it full and button it up.

 

This could EASILY be done on one with air-suspension by simply going to the highest suspension position and sliding under the vehicle on a piece of cardboard.

The result surprised me. It felt different backing out of his parking lot. After about 2 miles it felt much different. The acceleration is absolutely smooth now. It sort of encourages me to put my foot in the pedal..

 

So - why is this?

 

I believe the oil has broken down due to heat, and is contaminated with clutch wear particles. The clutch in the TC is a multiplate wet clutch. That means that the oil used IS important for smooth operation. Oil that is too thin and contaminated with wear particles will cause uneven clutch operation.

 

It's my belief that the roughness in acceleration (and on turning) and the noise are symptoms of the clutch plates engaging erratically, sticking and then releasing. New oil seems to cure this - at least in the vehicles it's been tried in. Use an oil with the Porsche specification on the bottle..It can be found as cheaply as $12/liter. It only takes 0.85 liter.

 

Car manufacturers like extended service intervals.. for a simple reason, it makes it easier to sell cars. People are afraid of high maintenance costs, (which would be very true if this was done by Porsche - the estimate to change the oil was over $200..) so the manufacturer extends the service intervals as far as they possibly can and have the car survive the original warranty period and any CPO period they might have to cover. At 100,000 miles - to the manufacturer - the car is basically dead to them. They have no continuing interest since they aren't going to make money off it.

 

So - it's easy and inexpensive to do - and it has FIXED issues that Porsche dealers wanted $4,000 to fix.

 

Just do it.  Change your TC oil.  And to check the oil at oil change intervals - remove the top fill plug and stick your finger in (or if it's full and warm some oil will run out) if the oil is DARK - replace it.

 

YMMV - but bet not a whole lot..

 

Looking forward from under the car: