Alternative Transfer Case Fluid?

[deilenberger]

BTW - I believe we discussed the change in the transfer case vent. The shop foreman also pointed to a revised "slinger" they installed on the lower output (to the front end). Looking at the air deflector I can understand now why Porsche is doing this. IF you were fording water deep enough to reach the air deflector - it is going to throw water up at the front-end output shaft on the transfer case. That in turn is going to spin the water off - and enough will go up above the case that it could drip back into the top mounted air-vent.  Porsches answer - reroute the vent and change the slinger on the shaft so it doesn't throw the water off.

 

Unfortunately it did not appear possible to re-route this vent with the TC in the car, at least not without dropping it down (which would require disconnecting the two driveshafts going to the TC, and dropping the cross-member below the TC. Not practical.

 

I don't see this as a huge concern. I saw no sign of water contamination in my drained oil. No one here has mentioned any water contamination in their oil. I don't think it's a huge issue if you don't regularly do off-roading and stream fording in your Cayenne. Driving across a rugged parking lot is not likely to cause oil contamination.

Edited March 29, 2017 by deilenberger

[ChrisFu]

Good analysis Don.

 

I'm very curious to see the visual condition of the oil on vehicles who are experiencing symptoms at mileages as low as 25-30k as I have seen on other threads.

[deilenberger]

Chris,

 

I am too - and interested in any correlation between climate and failure mileage.  You're in DFW, from memory - a rather warm part of the US - especially in summer.  Your problem started at how many miles?

[ChrisFu]

17 minutes ago, deilenberger said:

Chris,

 

I am too - and interested in any correlation between climate and failure mileage.  You're in DFW, from memory - a rather warm part of the US - especially in summer.  Your problem started at how many miles?

 

Our Cayenne is a northern one owner vehicle (Beachwood Porsche - Cleveland) that we only recently purchased in Janurary @ over 100k miles so it likely hasn't seen much for hot temperatures. I would bet its simply from a lot of highway mileage (supposedly) over the past 5 years the original owner put on it. 

[deilenberger]

I'm going to try to gather a bit of info - both here and 6-speed-on-line. Please only report your failure in one forum, I'd rather avoid duplicates.

 

To try to gather a little info here - that may or may not be useful, IF you've experienced a TC failure, please reply to this thread with the following info. After giving that info, any comments or summary of warranty/non-warranty, fix was replaced or just oil change is also welcome.

Info needed (and please try to keep this order:)

 

Year,     Model,      Mileage,      Location,     ForumUserName
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think it should be pretty obvious what's asked for.. and will be interested in what the responses are. If we get enough I'll start putting it together in a spreadsheet to see if there are any common factors.

 

An example response would be:

2011,  CTT,   72,300,  New Jersey USA, deilenberger

 

(Except mine didn't fail..)

 

TIA!

Edited March 30, 2017 by deilenberger

[ChrisFu]

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy  ForumUserName       
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6          105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870    Y       ChrisFu

Stumble through 3rd and 4th (similar to a misfire) plus binding/pulsing during low speed high steering angle driving. Fluid change showed very dark, likely burnt oil. Post replacement, 90% of symptoms eliminated - very slight intermittent "slip" feeling at high torque/high RPM in 2nd. Will be replacing all other transmission fluids shortly.

[deilenberger]

On the other forum where this topic has been active (http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/cayenne-958/287782-2011-cayenne-transfer-case-replaced.html) there has been some discussion of getting a base virgin sample of oil tested by Blackstone Labs, then getting our samples of used oil tested to see what changed.

 

Problem we have is I'm a bit cheapish - and don't feel like paying the $60 or so it would cost to buy a bottle of the original fill oil that Porsche used just to have the test done on it.  That oil had a PN of 000-043-301-36. If anyone has any of that oil - unused - perhaps the remainder from doing a change and having some left over - I hope I could talk Blackstone into doing a free baseline run that we could compare our used samples to - and get some idea of what's going on.  If that happens - I might also send along the bit of remaining oil from the new PN Porsche spec fluid (that ends in '63") so we can see what (if anything) changed between the two fluids.

 

Anyone?

[ChrisFu]

This weekend I decided to change the rest of the drivetrain fluids, as well as another transfer case fluid swap, and boy was it a bit surprising.

 

Fluids used: Royal Purple Synchromax (manual transmission), Royal Purple 75w90 maxgear (both diffs), Ravenol TF0780 (transfer case)

 

FYI manual transmission and rear diff service essentially requires a fluid pump

 

Here is an overview of the fluid condition as removed, versus new fluids behind them (both diffs use the same 75w90 royal purple). Notice the hue of the transfer case fluid which was changed only 2 weeks ago. It did not have the distinct burnt smell of the original fluid, but it was now opaque with suspended friction material. The transmission and gear oils were in fairly good condition, if not a little darker than I expected. No burned odor.

 

I poured some of the original oil (likely Porsche OE) versus the 2 week old Ravenol, and you can clearly see the burnt original fluid with clutch material, however even the new fluid was dark with additional friction material in suspension, leading me to believe that there is still significant amounts of that in the case. I believe that after a change the remaining material in the case is distributed over a short time and reduces the effectivity of the fluid (I was noticing slightly more hesitation at the end of the 2 week timeframe). I am considering trying to perform a flush with a gear pump or compressor to remove this buildup, however I am not sure if a solvent or traditional transfer case flush fluid would be harmful to our clutch discs.

[deilenberger]

Chris - it might be a fun project to try to find a barbed nipple that could be screwed into the case in place of the drain plug, then route a line from that to a small hydraulic pump and pass that through a filter - and then back into the fill port. Circulate the fluid and try to trap the suspended particles in the filter, and let the circulating oil wash any more out. Only problem I can see is it wouldn't get fluid up around where the clutch assembly is (up at the top of the case).

 

Probably work just as effectively to do another change of fluid in 1,000 miles or so. As long as you're not using the $65 Porsche stuff it isn't too painful to dump lightly used fluid. I think I'll do some more fluid research. See who makes what for transfer cases.. I have a liter of the Fuchs oil sitting on my shelf. That was $15 or so.  Have to spend some time seeing what approvals it has and how those might transfer to other oils.

[deilenberger]

Porsche Oil:

Looking at Porsche PN 000-043-305-63, it has no detailed spec's on compatibility or use specifications on the bottle. It's obviously made for our transfer cases since the quantity is 850cc's (the case capacity.)  On the front it says: " Bezeichnung: getriebeöl" which translates to: Gearbox oil". and "Im geschlossenen originalbehälter 3 jahre verwendbar ab Herstelldatum: siehe Aufdruck" translates to: "In closed original container 3 years usable from date of manufacture: see imprint"

 

On the warning label inside it gives a MDS listing (required by law): "Contains (1-tert-dodecylthio) propan, Ethoxylated anime, Calcium sulphonate, borated esters." then lots of health warnings.  The first chemical ((1-tert-dodecylthio) propan) appears to be a lubricant additive "This substance is manufactured and/or imported in the European Economic Area in 100 - 1 000 tonnes per year. This substance is used in the following products: lubricants and greases and hydraulic fluids."   The second chemical (Ethoxylated anime) is a surfactant (something that "wets" a surface - like detergent does for water). The 3rd chemical (Calcium sulphonate) is something fairly new according to a Google search. It's an oil/grease additive that gives rust protection and works as an extreme pressure additive at the same time.  The final chemical "Borate esters possess friction-reducing, antiwear, and anti-oxidant characteristics when blended in lubricating oils."

 

Not super radical chemistry, but the one "new" chemical is interesting since it specifically is used to protect against rust while still working as an anti-wear extreme pressure lubricant (extreme pressure means "metal to metal" - it forms a barrier preventing this contact - ideal in this sort of clutch).

 

Fuchs Titan ATF 5005:

This oil is suggested as a direct replacement for the older Porsche oil: 000-043-301-36-M846. It is shown om Fuch's website as an automatic transmission oil, basically a DEXRON III type oil.. The bottle has no MDS listing on it, so the chemical composition is unknown. It is supposed to meet the Shell TF-0870 oil specification. It is widely sold as being for all Cayenne transfer cases.  In looking at Fuch's own website - where they have a product selector: http://fuchs-eu.lubricantadvisor.com/advice.aspx?lang=eng&type=91be4020af03306d78b8184be618df13 - they list a different ATF for use in the transfer case: TITAN ATF 7134 FE - which raises an interesting conundrum.  The 7134 FE is a recently developed lubricant made for Mercedes automatic transmissions that apparently were experiencing shift problems with standard ATF lubricants like ATF-5005. https://www.fuchs.com/uk/en/products/product-program/automotive-lubricants/#gear-oils  Most importantly - I could find no Fuchs approval of the 5005 oil in our transfer cases. It might just be an older recommendation that was superseded by the 7134-FE recommendation,

 

The change in recommendation might almost makes me think that Fuch's is the OE supplier for Porsche, and that Fuchs-5005 = 000-043-301-36, and Fuchs 7134 FE = 000-043-305-63. The reason for the "almost" is twofold: There are warnings that this fluid is not compatible with red color transmission fluids, and the fluid is blue. The new Porsche fluid is amber.

 

RAVENOL Transfer Fluid TF-0870:

I don't have any bottles of this - so I can't say if there is a MDS sheet under the back label. Ravelol US gives this description: "RAVENOL Transfer Fluid TF-0870 is a fully synthetic gear lubricant designed specifically for the latest generation of electronically controlled active transfer cases. RAVENOL Transfer Fluid TF-0870 is formulated with fully synthetic base oils (PAO) combined with special additives and inhibition. RAVENOL Transfer Fluid TF-0870 ensures optimum power transfer and ultimate reliability." They also specifically list it as recommended for the Cayenne transfer case and equivalent to Porsche 000-043-301-36. I think this is a safe bet if you want to use other than the Porsche overpriced oil. It would certainly work as a flush oil with a final change to the more expensive Porsche 000-043-305-63 fluid.

 

Enough on oil. Chris - I'll be very interested to hear how your latest change holds up.

[deilenberger]

BTW - searching on the Shell oil turned up a number of hits with BMW forums. They have the same problems (and strangely enough, have ZF transfer cases that use the same oil we do. They also found that changing the oil often seems to solve most of the issue.  http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8033580  and http://www.bmwfanatics.co.za/showthread.php?tid=17751

[steph280]

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy  ForumUserName       
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6          105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870    Y       ChrisFu
2012      V6          40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM    Y       Steph280

Hesitation (after warmed up) in second and third gear, disappears after 4th gear and higher.  Gear grinding like noise when turning into 90 degrees intersection at low speed.  Fluid replacement resolved 100% of hesitation issue and about 90% of turning noise.  Fluid changed at local indy shop and came out black.

[pastorom]

Cross-posting this both at 6Speed and Renntech.

Quick Refresher - Left turn crunching issue. 3rd Owner for 2011 CTT with 93k miles. Switched fluids to Redline D4 ATF and while the frequency of issues decreased, they were still around. So 300 miles later switched to the Ravenol fluid. Have given it 300 more miles since, just to make sure, but can now confidently say that the issues are completely gone. So mark this down as another data point in favor of the oil change as opposed to the TC change.

Also, given that you only need a Qt (850 ml actually), i'm just going to get into the habit of changing the TC fluid every year/motor oil change, given it's so easy and cheap, and given that i have yet to hear why changing it that frequently would be a bad idea.

 

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy  ForumUserName       
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6          105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870    Y       ChrisFu
2012      V6          40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM    Y       Steph280

2011              CTT                   93,700                 IL, USA             AT                Ravenol TF0870         Y             pastorom

 

[wkearney99]

1 hour ago, pastorom said:

Also, given that you only need a Qt (850 ml actually), i'm just going to get into the habit of changing the TC fluid every year/motor oil change, given it's so easy and cheap, and given that i have yet to hear why changing it that frequently would be a bad idea

 I'd also like to hear opinions as to why changing this fluid would be a bad idea.  

 

Obviouslythere is a waste of money argument but what about the issues or the presense of friction modifiers and any impact those might have on the clutch discs inside the transfer case.  I can't think of a reason why changing engine oil or regular gear oil would be a problem but transfer case with fiction modifiers I know nothing about.

 

I would hate to cause different problems by being proactive about transfer case fluid changes.

[deilenberger]

I can't begin to imagine why changing the oil more frequently would be a problem. You may want to invest in a set of spare fill/drain plugs - just in case. The friction modifiers only "go away" with wear on the oil. They don't build up from changing the oil too much, they pretty much stay in suspension in the oil.

 

My mechanic also suggested doing it every oil change (7,500 miles) - if the Ravenol appears to work well for 15,000 miles - I'll probably make that the transfer-case change interval, since I do oil about every 7,500 miles.  Every other oil change. I don't know if I'd be as quick to do it that often with Porsche's $65 fluid though. (I'm value-conscious - ie - cheap.)

 

BTW - Pastorom - thanks MUCH for telling the "rest of the story".. since yours was the only case so far where changing it on a higher-mileage transfer-case didn't improve it overall. Apparently the Redline wasn't the "right stuff.."  Good on'ya!

Edited April 8, 2017 by deilenberger

[deilenberger]

I guess I should add in my info:

 

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy     ForumUserName      
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6           105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870     Y       ChrisFu
2012      V6             40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM          Y       Steph280
2011      CTT           93,700       IL, USA      AT       Ravenol TF0870      Y       pastorom
2012      CTT           72,000       NJ USA      AT       Porsche - 63            Y       deilenberger

 

 

[958S]

I reused the plugs and don't have any leaks

Did you have the proper torque spec?

[958S]

Did you have the proper torque spec?

I think I found it in my workshop manual (go figure). Shows 17nm or 13 ft lb so not much.

[958S]

Also, I am using the Ravenol to flush the unit until the next regular oil change when I plan to put the Porsche factory in. If you use the Ravenol it has a nice built in hose system that works perfectly.

Mine was not having bad symptoms, but better safe than sorry. Plus I thought I noticed something when really getting on it, but might have been my imagination. Either way a quick preventative maintenance and man it was dark.

[deilenberger]

@958s - I'll be very interested in how the oil you now have in there looks after some use when you go to change it again. I'm giving thought to doing a second change on mine.

[958S]

@958s - I'll be very interested in how the oil you now have in there looks after some use when you go to change it again. I'm giving thought to doing a second change on mine.

I will post a picture. I may do it another time if it looks too bad, I have an extra bottle.

[BweSteve]

I'll add mine now too, since it was just replaced...

 

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy     ForumUserName      
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6           105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870     Y       ChrisFu
2012      V6             40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM          Y       Steph280
2011      CTT           93,700       IL, USA      AT       Ravenol TF0870      Y       pastorom
2012      CTT           72,000       NJ USA      AT       Porsche - 63            Y       deilenberger

2012      CTT            45,300      MD  USA    AT       Porsche OEM         Y        BweSteve

 

Mine was a "Good Will" replacement by Porsche through my dealer at no cost to me.  yes, they put the new vent hose in too.

 

Mine was not a failure, but it was making the same noises that others have reported here.  It is silky smooth now.

 

=Steve

[deilenberger]

1 hour ago, BweSteve said:

I'll add mine now too, since it was just replaced...

 

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy     ForumUserName      
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6           105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870     Y       ChrisFu
2012      V6             40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM          Y       Steph280
2011      CTT           93,700       IL, USA      AT       Ravenol TF0870      Y       pastorom
2012      CTT           72,000       NJ USA      AT       Porsche - 63            Y       deilenberger

2012      CTT            45,300      MD  USA    AT       Porsche OEM         Y        BweSteve

 

Mine was a "Good Will" replacement by Porsche through my dealer at no cost to me.  yes, they put the new vent hose in too.

 

Mine was not a failure, but it was making the same noises that others have reported here.  It is silky smooth now.

 

=Steve

Steve - the list above is of Cayennes where new fluid was installed in the transfer case - and if it improved ("Remedy") operation. I'm sure your new TC has new fluid in it - but we can't attribute it's good behavior to the fluid alone.. :)

[deilenberger]

5 minutes ago, deilenberger said:

Steve - the list above is of Cayennes where new fluid was installed in the transfer case - and if it improved ("Remedy") operation. I'm sure your new TC has new fluid in it - but we can't attribute it's good behavior to the fluid alone.. :) I realize my original description wasn't clear - so I'll add a column.

Creating a new column - with two options:

 

"Fluid Change" or "New XFerCase"    That should clear things up a bit..

Edited April 18, 2017 by deilenberger

[deilenberger]

New column added:

 

Year      Model       Mileage       Location    AT/MT    Fluid             Remedy     ForumUserName      FIX WAS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012      V6           105,000       TX, USA     MT       Raveonl TF0870     Y       ChrisFu                     Fluid Change
2012      V6             40,000       CA, USA     AT       Porsche OEM          Y       Steph280                  Fluid Change
2011      CTT           93,700       IL, USA      AT       Ravenol TF0870      Y       pastorom                   Fluid Change
2012      CTT           72,000       NJ USA      AT       Porsche - 63            Y       deilenberger              Fluid Change

2012      CTT            45,300      MD  USA    AT       Porsche OEM         Y        BweSteve                  New XFerCase

 

Please use this format going forward.