Turbo s won't stay running and misfiring

[tomdrift666]

Hello I'm having some problems with my turbo s and trying to diagnose so I can order some parts but kinda at a loss right now.  Car has been having some hesitation at times and at heavier throttle boost seems to flutter a little bit like it doesn't hold good solid boost.  So I was planning on upgrading diverter valves.  And figured it was the coils and plugs as well since we haven't done them since we purchased it a year ago.  This morning my girlfriend was driving and she said as she accelerated it felt fast and smooth and then went she let off she said it felt like a hard jerk or shutter. She made it to school to drop the kid off and on her way home turning onto the Main Street leading to ours it didn't want to accelerate.  Sputtered and hesitated real bad.  She finally made it home.  

So I took it for a drive and real hard idle as I started it.  Tried to drive it down the street and honestly feels like a huge boost leak or something. Won't accelerate.  Throttle is unresponsive then all of sudden hits.  Won't really go past 3-4 k.  I scanned the codes that finally kicked on only after I drove it.  I wanted it to throw codes so I did until it finally did.  

2 p0507

p2187

p2189

p1096

 

all seem to be idle related which makes sense since it can't.  Now I start it. It starts clean and then just falls on its face and dies after like 3 seconds. If i play with throttle it'll stay running but rough.  I checked for boost leaks up top and didn't come across any.  

 

It's at about 1/8 tank of fuel so I just filled up a 5 gallon can and added to no difference.   Pulled fuse fs13 and 14 with no major change. With one of em out I felt it ran worse.  

 

We are are about to order parts but should i look at something else

 

going to buy coils, plugs , agency power diverter valves and two new maf's    Could it be that map sensor on top of that intake tube going into throttle body?  Could it be the throttle body itself with like a build in iac?   

 

Thank you for any insight.   And sorry if that was rambling and incoherent. 

[tomdrift666]

Changed our coils and plugs.  All coils and plugs looked good.  One had a crack on the mounting tab where the bolt goes.  Took all boost pipes off. Drained oil out the drivers side lower which seems to be normal from what I've read.  Agency power diverter valves were ordered yesterday so hopefully they are here by Tuesday. I already took out the drivers one. Didn't seem bad.  Visually inspected whatever I could.   Couldn't find any cracked or torn couplers or vacuum lines.   Took a metal tube and added a wheel valve stem I had laying around and tried to air up the system to check for leaks with a bicycle pump but that didn't seem to do anything because whatever are I put in didn't seem to build.  Maybe I need to do it with a compressor?  I don't own one as I always build my race cars by hand so I would be able to work on them at the track with basic tools if need be.  Started it up tonight at 930pm in my garage.  Sure my neighbors enjoyed that as we have a tubi midpipe and muffler on it so it's pretty **** loud.  Not as loud as the 911 with the fab speed bypass pipes but pretty **** loud.  

It started right up as it always does as start tune means everything is perfect.  It didn't fall right on its face and actually idles pretty decent when it was cold. But you could feel some vibration meaning it's not running perfect.

  Revved it a few times. Throttle response was ok. Not great but better than before. And comes down kinda low but doesn't stall out. As it warmed up, the idle seemed to get a little worse but still stayed running.  

Obviously it's running sorta better but not great.  Car is bone stock except the exhaust setup.   I cleaned the maf sensors.  Neither showed any dirt or grime.   Where could my leak be?  Where are the common ones?  Do these o rings go bad?  The throttle body to plenum y pipe seems to have too much play for my Liking but that could be normal. The cold pipes going into the y plenum have some wiggle where they go to the intercooler?  Even the hard tube going into the turbo under has play.  Do these o rings go bad?   Any help or input would be appreciated.  Thanks guys 

[tomdrift666]

Oh and still no codes thrown yet. Not lights. 

[tomdrift666]

New plugs and coils in there.  My $20 wifi Bluetooth obd2 reader showed up off of amazon.  Ordered a icarsoft por 2 but won't be here til Friday.  Read codes and not showing any of the old idle codes previous but had a bunch of p0300 and p030x pending codes.   New coils and plugs gapped down to .032.  Hoping the vacuum leak is causing the misfire as all plugs and coils are brand new.    Ordered a smoke leak tester today. Hopefully that shows up soon. I don't want to keep spending money, and would like to spend money, on buying the proper parts

[lewisweller]

16 hours ago, tomdrift666 said:

Oh and still no codes thrown yet. Not lights. 

Divertor valves won't affect idle.  But will affect how high the boost can go and hold. You should be having 0.9 bar. 

 

Assuming you haven't had the manifold off, the list of top likely leaks for me is:

 

1. AOS

2. Pipes 4, 5, 14

3 throttle body dirty and or gasket 9 leaking 

4 Check valve 13 leaking or 25 or small pipe from 14 all are check valves. 

 

The fact you have to modulate the throttle to keep running after cold start has kicked off suggests to me it a dirty throttle butterfly. Easy to remove and gasket is cheap. Also check the pipe under it for damage splits and check the two small black check valves working as they should. (Arrow tells you the flow direction, reverse flow should be closed) 

 

After cold start is finished briefly Smell your tail pipe (well ventilated area of course). Is it air or is it fuel smell. If you have a fuel issue it will likely not smell rich. If you have air leaks or lack of air entering for the engine it will be rich smelling. A Lambda sensor only can detect the presence of oxygen so a misfire will also see as lean whether its actually rich ignition misfire or lack of compression, unburnt air is still seen or lean misfire lack of fuel extra unburnt oxygen is still seen) the codes are being generated by lambda sensors. 

When you get your icarsoft you can look at fuel trims which will identify lean or rich pretty quick. 

[tomdrift666]

Thank you for the reply!  I'm back outside now working on it after dropping the kids off at school.  This morning started it and usually cold start great and with the air pumps running it runs great but as soon as they shut off, there goes down the idle which further tells me of a leak.   Also I heard some sucking noise from the aos and I pushed on the lid and it stopped. Tell tale sign of a questionable diaphragm?  I'll pull the off and inspect it here in the next few minutes and visually try to inspect those hoses you referred to and I will check the check valves for proper flow and seal.  

Quick note, I just saw on my new coils. Part number - 980 602 904 03.  The ones I pulled out were 948 xxxxx 07 and 08.  These new ones are all 980 number with 01-03 on the end.  I google searched and they came up as 06 turbo s fitment but doesn't seem to be what everyone else is running.  Could thst pose a issue as well?   

 

Thank you for your help

[tomdrift666]

Aos good. Pulled and checked no tears or anything suspicious with it.  Pulled all lines you referred to and blow tested the check valves. All seem to be in order.  Cleaned throttle body and checked for signs of leakage around the throttle body to intake manifold mount for soot or any signs of leaks without pulling it.  No one around has a gasket in stock today so didn't want to pull it.   I'm going to reassemble and start it up to see if any changes. I'm leaving cool pack covers off so I will have easier access to them.   

Is there a master o ring kit for all the major boost pipes?  All rubber couplers are good and have been checked but I'm thinking maybe those o rings go bad?  Torque mount has some crackage some maybe excess motor flex caused some to have a poor seat?  

Im going to go scoop up an cheap fuel gauge kit and test pressure at the fuel rails.  With them being a parallel design, I only have to check at one of the schrader valves at the end I would think.  

This things really has me scratching my head and I like to think of myself as someone pretty mechanically inclined. 

[lewisweller]

2 hours ago, tomdrift666 said:

Aos good. Pulled and checked no tears or anything suspicious with it.  Pulled all lines you referred to and blow tested the check valves. All seem to be in order.  Cleaned throttle body and checked for signs of leakage around the throttle body to intake manifold mount for soot or any signs of leaks without pulling it.  No one around has a gasket in stock today so didn't want to pull it.   I'm going to reassemble and start it up to see if any changes. I'm leaving cool pack covers off so I will have easier access to them.   

Is there a master o ring kit for all the major boost pipes?  All rubber couplers are good and have been checked but I'm thinking maybe those o rings go bad?  Torque mount has some crackage some maybe excess motor flex caused some to have a poor seat?  

Im going to go scoop up an cheap fuel gauge kit and test pressure at the fuel rails.  With them being a parallel design, I only have to check at one of the schrader valves at the end I would think.  

This things really has me scratching my head and I like to think of myself as someone pretty mechanically inclined. 

The coil you bought ecs Tuning and Porschegeek both say they don't fit cayenne turbo or turbo S, they are for cayenne s or carrera. 

The attached screen shot is from autoatlanta and they list only 948........09 as the coil for our turbo. Fyi the turbo and turbo s is the same coil. I think you have been sold the wrong coils. 

Incidentally when I bought my newish coils from Porsche back in March 2016 they ended in 21. I bought one new coil last week ends in 05. All beru oem originals. 

I also now beleive all my coils or at least bank 1 which had head gaskets failure had fried my coils and could be the whole reason why I have running issue when warm but with no code ever recorded. I'm going to stump up another 400 dollars and replace the remaining 7 coils with the 05 revision number and see if that's the smoking gun I been searching for for nearly a year believing my new coils couldn't be to blame. 

 

Aside from this you still likely have an air leak somewhere but not sure where. If I remove my oil filler cap I can hear air sucking via the aos internally which I know is not split and when cap is on the noise is gone. What this does confirm is you have a leak somewhere still for sure. 

 

You checked the Y pipe for splits that open up and close which are hard to see! Also have heard some manifolds can split and gasket can leak. 

 

 

[tomdrift666]

Started the truck up. Ran like crap once the air pumps kicked off. But then slowly seemed to relearn itself and next thing I knew was idling great in the 8-900 range.  Was able to free rev lightly and it didn't stall or drop.    I pulled the oil cap and hear the noise coming from the Aos sucking.  Noticed broken o ring on dip stick so I out 2 new ones I had from a random  o ring kit. Checked codes.  Had a p0300 and p0301 and p0303 pending but never threw em.   Tried to drive it.  Drove fine at super light throttle but as soon and you try to accelerate. It would buck and pop and not do much.  Then it started idling high and threw a p0507 high idle code.  I already ordered new coils and plugs from suncoast parts just now. They should send me the right ones correct? 

[tomdrift666]

I visually checked the y plenum and couldn't see any visible leaks. I also Plummed a tight vacuum line with tape on the bottom to seal into the map hole on top and tried to puff a cigarette into it to see any signs of leakage.  It's not the most precise way but crude enough to show something in theory.    Only thing I noticed was smoke slowly coming back out my intake elbows because I had them detached from the air boxes. 

 

Also so when I came back from my test drive and had the high idle, I pulled fuse 14 while running and it dropped way down but kept running. Then put it back idle jumped back up and pulled 13 to no difference in idle.  

[ekstroemtj]

@ Lewis

 

maybe you are mistaken here.

if i buy coils in germany for my S or my CTT the part number is always the same. 

[lewisweller]

4 hours ago, ekstroemtj said:

@ Lewis

 

maybe you are mistaken here.

if i buy coils in germany for my S or my CTT the part number is always the same. 

I personally think the S and the turbo will run fine on the 948........03 or 05 or 08 or 09, or 12 or 21 revision, but some website state different parts 980....... And that is not turbo suitable I don't believe. I think the websites listings are incorrect. I tend to follow the porsche part from the vin and I trust autoatlanta for their part numbers and it's 948602104??(revision number). 

 

What is actually different inside I don't know, but when testing the one new coil revision 05  against the previously 8 new coils revision 21 the measurements were very different and I don't know why. 

[tomdrift666]

To avoid a variable, we ordered and confirmed, 948 602 104 20 or 21's if I recall.  Better than the 980 if those may be my problem.   Also ordered another set of stock plugs just for piece of mind. 

Update, today I bought a harbor freight fuel pressure kit.  Tested both pumps just shy of 4 bar.  The gauge is kinda crappy and not the most accurate thing it seemed so i took it as pumps were both good. Tested each side individually pulling 13 and 14 fuse one at a time and pulling them and swapping shutting the car off each time.  Pressure seemed to hold good when I would shut the car off so I would take this tank valve people speak about as being good still.  

Still throwing p0300 and same for misfires for cylinder 3 and 5. So one on each bank which helps me rule out Valvetrain failure.    Never got a chance to swap coils around to see if the problem would coincide with the coil, as I ran out of time today to tinker.  

I think my old lady is getting used to driving my dually so the cayenne is in no rush now, and my daughter doesn't oppose to me driving the 911 instead of it just sitting in the garage on stands haha. So life moving on atleast, until my smoke tester, por 2 scanner, oem coils and plugs and agency power DV all show up.  Hopefully, at this point I'm banking on these 980 coils and plugs being my demon.  

 

Time will tell 

[lewisweller]

8 hours ago, tomdrift666 said:

To avoid a variable, we ordered and confirmed, 948 602 104 20 or 21's if I recall.  Better than the 980 if those may be my problem.   Also ordered another set of stock plugs just for piece of mind. 

Update, today I bought a harbor freight fuel pressure kit.  Tested both pumps just shy of 4 bar.  The gauge is kinda crappy and not the most accurate thing it seemed so i took it as pumps were both good. Tested each side individually pulling 13 and 14 fuse one at a time and pulling them and swapping shutting the car off each time.  Pressure seemed to hold good when I would shut the car off so I would take this tank valve people speak about as being good still.  

Still throwing p0300 and same for misfires for cylinder 3 and 5. So one on each bank which helps me rule out Valvetrain failure.    Never got a chance to swap coils around to see if the problem would coincide with the coil, as I ran out of time today to tinker.  

I think my old lady is getting used to driving my dually so the cayenne is in no rush now, and my daughter doesn't oppose to me driving the 911 instead of it just sitting in the garage on stands haha. So life moving on atleast, until my smoke tester, por 2 scanner, oem coils and plugs and agency power DV all show up.  Hopefully, at this point I'm banking on these 980 coils and plugs being my demon.  

 

Time will tell 

Whilst you waiting for the parts unplug both maf sensors and idle for a while and go for a drive. I bet it's a whole different story. 

Then plug in on maf and check if no different unplug again and plug in the other one. If that produces same running as before you probably identified the bad maf or maybe both are bad (more unlikely). 

The other possible fault I heard about was hydraulic lifters getting stuck, this caused one cylinder to misfire unexplainably until they stripped the engine bank 1 down and found the lifter stuck. As you have multiple misfires on random cylinder I doubt this is the case. 

[lewisweller]

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-beru-parts/pencil-type-ignition-coil-priced-each/94860210421~beu/?trk_msg=OJ8O112A43G454TL2JV90E1M00&trk_contact=31PA2H8PO6BUCUB8193NOSO5HS&trk_module=bna&trk_sid=0F37GP8D2608JUBU4HKA9P81VC&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=SHOP+NOW&utm_campaign=SCA+Program&utm_content=Browse+Abandonment+2

These coils are listed on ecs as 94860210421 which if you look at the picture is labelled beru ZSE012 which is exactly the coil I bought the other day to replace coil number 2 which was the melted one. Still trying to scrap up some cash to buy another 7 coils and see if the end to this long saga is the true end. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by lewisweller

[tomdrift666]

Coils, plugs and DV's showed up today, and por 2 scanner yesterday.  I'll tinker in the morning.  

I recieved 948 602 104 22 coils so hopefully they work 

[lewisweller]

1 hour ago, tomdrift666 said:

Coils, plugs and DV's showed up today, and por 2 scanner yesterday.  I'll tinker in the morning.  

I recieved 948 602 104 22 coils so hopefully they work 

Revision 22! Could you possibly measure the resistance of the new coil? 

Red lead on pin 4 (far right as you look inside). 

Black lead on pin 2 should be in the Kohms range. 

Then move black lead to pin 1 (far left), not sure what reading but I think it high Kohms or low Mohms. 

Thanks. 

 

If your doing the DV maybe you might want replace the vaccum pipes as well, 6mm OD and 4mm ID get pipe from any pneumatic shop cheap as chips. 

 

[lewisweller]

On 18/02/2017 at 7:52 AM, tomdrift666 said:

Coils, plugs and DV's showed up today, and por 2 scanner yesterday.  I'll tinker in the morning.  

I recieved 948 602 104 22 coils so hopefully they work 

How did you get on tom.?