fuel pump cayenne 9PA constipated?

[ekstroemtj]

Jesus! Thanks god. You deserve it. I am very happy you solved it. Celebrate this victory with some beer 

[lewisweller]

Thanks Thomas. And to all who posted with support and advice. :)

 

I will continue to search for the last remaining slight running issues but I'm know not worried about the car running so lean it melts the engine down. Also the cat now doesn't stink of sulphur egg smells when I accelerate hard, which also tells me fuel was the issue for sure. 

 

Ive got three other projects, strip and rebuild the front air struts, investigate the check tail light further inside the control module and also look into the "four wheel drive system faulty" warning on dash which are both voltage related I know. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by lewisweller

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Lewis I had the same check taillight problem. Pulled the top spoiler cover off and removed/unplugged/cleaned ALL the wires and connectors up there with a wire brush and electrical cleaner. Problem finally SOLVED. 5 months now no check brake light error. Used to drive me NUTS. 

[lewisweller]

8 hours ago, ma77hewsu11ivan said:

Lewis I had the same check taillight problem. Pulled the top spoiler cover off and removed/unplugged/cleaned ALL the wires and connectors up there with a wire brush and electrical cleaner. Problem finally SOLVED. 5 months now no check brake light error. Used to drive me NUTS. 

Thanks for the tip. I always removed and tested the tail lights but neglected to check the third Led brake light because stupidly i was looking for the tail light issue and not the brake light but its all on the same circuit duh! 

I will check that first before going to the trouble of removing the trim etc to get at the comfort control module. 

For anyone who is reading this thread in the future the hesitation issue returned and I'm still searching for a cause. The new fuel pumps did not fix this long term and I think the short term improvement was either a fluke or just the result of the battery being disconnected for some time and resetting something. Repeating this disconnection of battery doesn't result in better running everytime its frustratingly random. 

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Looks like you and I are chasing the same dragon. Just replaced both fuel pumps, filter and regulator and still experience lag when I lay into the throttle. Have you replaced your high pressure fuel pump? I noticed a smell of burning plastic from the engine bay prior to my fuel pump failures. I understand the hpfp is driven by the bank 2 camshaft via a clutch that is held in place by a $50 piece of plastic. My hypothesis is that the failing low pressure pumps created stress on the hpfp causing the clutch to fail (really, do it's job vs tearing up the camshaft) and am HOPING simply replacing the $50 plastic cam stopper solves my issue now that the hpfp is getting good fuel pressure/ delivery. If not, I'm in for an early $1200 HPFP birthday present...

Edited March 17, 2017 by ma77hewsu11ivan

[lewisweller]

23 minutes ago, ma77hewsu11ivan said:

Looks like you and I are chasing the same dragon. Just replaced both fuel pumps, filter and regulator and still experience lag when I lay into the throttle. Have you replaced your high pressure fuel pump? I noticed a smell of burning plastic from the engine bay prior to my fuel pump failures. I understand the hpfp is driven by the bank 2 camshaft via a clutch that is held in place by a $50 piece of plastic. My hypothesis is that the failing low pressure pumps created stress on the hpfp causing the clutch to fail (really, do it's job vs tearing up the camshaft) and am HOPING simply replacing the $50 plastic cam stopper solves my issue now that the hpfp is getting good fuel pressure/ delivery. If not, I'm in for an early $1200 HPFP birthday present...

Mine is a 2006 ctt so I don't have the hpfp. 

The set up of the hpfp is very similar to my 2013 Golf R (sold) I rebuilt the Hitachi hpfp with auto tech internals to increase pump pressure to match the APR stage 2+ tune and mods. The earlier engine had a very weak and soft cam lobe which flatten and caused lean burn and low pressure also the cam follower would wear a hole in it and smash everything up. Lucky the 2013 Golf R engine had revised cam and as long as you checked and replaced the cam follower every 30-40,000 km it was bullet proof with good oil quality and regular changes. 

 

The porsche setup is a bit different using a clutch and stopper which can break. 

 

Does anyone do a refurb/exchange rebuilt unit of the hpfp? I'm sure its very similar to vag hpfp used in millions of applications across the range since 2005 or even before. I bet someone does.

Edit: just found this, suncoast do .......

https://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php

[9552T500]

sorry hijacking, but this one here seems the closest to my issue with the 06 ctts since i tourured the car in snow and -15c in january at tahoe... getting cel, accellerates like a v6, brake booster failure note , lean on both banks and codes on purge valve ... replaced several broken vac tees /tubes, check vac valve ( broken membrane) , sparks, coils, oil filler cap ( vac check showed leak) , gas cap( perimeter gasket cracks ). the car runs better , and sporadically no cel, but i still have lean codes on both banks , booster failure, and when warm start, i see rpm going to ca 1200 for 1-2 s, then dropping 600-650. what i notice is consistent noise ( like a pump running at full speed)coming from the part i am showing in the picture below. i do not know what it is , but the shiny metal body gets hot . any hints would be appreciated... thx

[lewisweller]

7 hours ago, 9552T500 said:

sorry hijacking, but this one here seems the closest to my issue with the 06 ctts since i tourured the car in snow and -15c in january at tahoe... getting cel, accellerates like a v6, brake booster failure note , lean on both banks and codes on purge valve ... replaced several broken vac tees /tubes, check vac valve ( broken membrane) , sparks, coils, oil filler cap ( vac check showed leak) , gas cap( perimeter gasket cracks ). the car runs better , and sporadically no cel, but i still have lean codes on both banks , booster failure, and when warm start, i see rpm going to ca 1200 for 1-2 s, then dropping 600-650. what i notice is consistent noise ( like a pump running at full speed)coming from the part i am showing in the picture below. i do not know what it is , but the shiny metal body gets hot . any hints would be appreciated... thx

That's the vac pump (second picture item 19) for you brake booster. 

You have a vac leak from the (second picture item 14 to 13) pipe that runs around and back to the brake booster (through the firewall). The parts diagram is misleading as its a lot longer and more bends than It shows. 

One of the pipe associated that runs to the inlet manifold and Y pipe (first picture item 4) can also be cracked. 

 

Can you pls explain and take picture where you connected your vacuum checker to? And what readings you got? 

Thanks. 

[9552T500]

7 hours ago, lewisweller said:

You have a vac leak from the (second picture item 14 to 13) pipe that runs around and back to the brake booster (through the firewall).

Can you pls explain and take picture where you connected your vacuum checker to? And what readings you got? 

thanks lewisweller. Your Pic 1 - 13/14 region is what I think I inspected thoroughly while trying to exclude misc. vac lines failure under the intake (my attached pic 1), then extended search to check valve & AOS . The only leak (obviously broken part) I found was on the check valve that goes the up-back (see picture of the broken membrane) . I replaced that check valve (porsche OEM part from pelican), thoroughly cleaned (sonic bath) all other parts, and put all back together. I did not check the role of the check valve alone on how engine runs, but cleaning/sealing the pre-intake/vac lines/valves , improved the the throttle response noticeably (from turbo-boost pressure literally having no noticeable effect on acceleration, to the more usual thrust gain when the turbos kick in). This was the first I noticed. Also, the engine sounded running smoother @ idle just after starting, and CEL went  away within less than 50 miles (can't tell exactly how many as wife just happily texting this update that cel was gone...). The car was then smogged  a few 100 miles later w/o problems. However, a few days later, CEL appeared again. An apparent thing I noticed is that when the fuel tank is filled up , in two cases (thought cap not closed etc. when my wife reported, and second happend to myself, and I assume it may repeat...), the car just did not want to start at all (just cranking for seconds - not even an attempt to start). More by coincidence, I think I figured that pulling the key , central locking car & just try all again, worked. The car was idling bad for the first seconds thou, but ran perfectly fine few seconds later. 

 

...your hint on the vac pump remaining so busy, seems to indicate that I need to start looking into where Brake booster line may go through firewall   (tried to push out as of terrible  accessibility...).

 

PS.: current codes are P2187, P2189, P0441

Edited March 19, 2017 by 9552T500

[ma77hewsu11ivan]

Mine is a 2006 ctt so I don't have the hpfp. 
The set up of the hpfp is very similar to my 2013 Golf R (sold) I rebuilt the Hitachi hpfp with auto tech internals to increase pump pressure to match the APR stage 2+ tune and mods. The earlier engine had a very weak and soft cam lobe which flatten and caused lean burn and low pressure also the cam follower would wear a hole in it and smash everything up. Lucky the 2013 Golf R engine had revised cam and as long as you checked and replaced the cam follower every 30-40,000 km it was bullet proof with good oil quality and regular changes. 
 
The porsche setup is a bit different using a clutch and stopper which can break. 
 
Does anyone do a refurb/exchange rebuilt unit of the hpfp? I'm sure its very similar to vag hpfp used in millions of applications across the range since 2005 or even before. I bet someone does.
Edit: just found this, suncoast do .......
https://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php

Thank you Lewis. Love that tutorial! Any idea which Hitachi pump a 2009 Cayenne S uses? I know the Porsche number, but I'm guessing Porsche IDs marking up this up by at least 200%. As it stands, my current plan: Grabbing a rebuild later this week. Porsche offered me a $500 voucher to help. Why? Because I asked. Over the phone. I was blown away. Thank you PCNA :) New is about $1200, rebuild is $820 plus core. So... Doing the swap myself + voucher - rebuild = huge savings and healthy fuel supply. Fingers crossed. I'll let you know how it turns out. Any luck with your 3rd brake light? Could be your brake pedal switch as well? I know the first gen cayenne's had a cheap switch behind the brake pedal; not sure if that applied to the turbo...


2009 Cayenne S

[lewisweller]

9 hours ago, 9552T500 said:

thanks lewisweller. Your Pic 1 - 13/14 region is what I think I inspected thoroughly while trying to exclude misc. vac lines failure under the intake (my attached pic 1), then extended search to check valve & AOS . The only leak (obviously broken part) I found was on the check valve that goes the up-back (see picture of the broken membrane) . I replaced that check valve (porsche OEM part from pelican), thoroughly cleaned (sonic bath) all other parts, and put all back together. I did not check the role of the check valve alone on how engine runs, but cleaning/sealing the pre-intake/vac lines/valves , improved the the throttle response noticeably (from turbo-boost pressure literally having no noticeable effect on acceleration, to the more usual thrust gain when the turbos kick in). This was the first I noticed. Also, the engine sounded running smoother @ idle just after starting, and CEL went  away within less than 50 miles (can't tell exactly how many as wife just happily texting this update that cel was gone...). The car was then smogged  a few 100 miles later w/o problems. However, a few days later, CEL appeared again. An apparent thing I noticed is that when the fuel tank is filled up , in two cases (thought cap not closed etc. when my wife reported, and second happend to myself, and I assume it may repeat...), the car just did not want to start at all (just cranking for seconds - not even an attempt to start). More by coincidence, I think I figured that pulling the key , central locking car & just try all again, worked. The car was idling bad for the first seconds thou, but ran perfectly fine few seconds later. 

 

...your hint on the vac pump remaining so busy, seems to indicate that I need to start looking into where Brake booster line may go through firewall   (tried to push out as of terrible  accessibility...).

 

PS.: current codes are P2187, P2189, P0441

To eliminate the P0441 simply replace the purge valve. This could also be an contributing or causing other running issues and definitely is the reason for hard starting after fill up. 

[9552T500]

1 hour ago, lewisweller said:

To eliminate the P0441 simply replace the purge valve. This could also be an contributing or causing other running issues and definitely is the reason for hard starting after fill up. 

Would be purge valve  be the part pointed to with red arrow in pic below   ? (looks like pn 955 605 517 00)

[lewisweller]

1 hour ago, 9552T500 said:

Would be purge valve  be the part pointed to with red arrow in pic below   ? (looks like pn 955 605 517 00)

Yep. Part number as per picture item 3 is 94811020201

[ekstroemtj]

I agree. Since i changed the purge valve and the wiring / connector the car runs much better!

[9552T500]

ordered 948 110 202 03 ( this seems to be the latest rev per parts specialist @ my local p-dealership). hope this will do the trick. thanks again to the folks here pointing me to another potentially faulty emission control device... 

[9552T500]

update : installed the new purge valve . car runs  great. hope no acting up during next gas fillup. i continued searching for the vac leak/ causes for the  vac pump is running non-stop. i have not found any obvious damage to the line connecting the pump with the brake booster. however, there are 2 lines going off the tee after the pump, with lines ending up along the cyl head, amd down behind the engine. i am not yet certain where these ending into, but was wondering whether applying static vac to the system ( eg some vac dessiccator pump ) via line which normally connects to the pump & monitoring pressure change over time may allow any conclusions on the size of the leak. 

 

 

[lewisweller]

4 hours ago, 9552T500 said:

update : installed the new purge valve . car runs  great. hope no acting up during next gas fillup. i continued searching for the vac leak/ causes for the  vac pump is running non-stop. i have not found any obvious damage to the line connecting the pump with the brake booster. however, there are 2 lines going off the tee after the pump, with lines ending up along the cyl head, amd down behind the engine. i am not yet certain where these ending into, but was wondering whether applying static vac to the system ( eg some vac dessiccator pump ) via line which normally connects to the pump & monitoring pressure change over time may allow any conclusions on the size of the leak. 

 

 

Engine running all connected ok, then switch off engine. Then pump brake pedal, count the pumps before it goes hard? Then press and hold the brake pedal hard and start the engine, the pedal should depress straight away. The results of this test may give a indication how big the leak is, but it's not really going to help you find it. 

[9552T500]

10 hours ago, lewisweller said:

, count the pumps before it goes hard? Then press and hold the brake pedal hard and start the engine, the pedal should depress straight away. 

depresses right away upon start & takes 1-2 strokes to stiffen after engine is off....  the brake feels spongy as of late & bottoms out  / overall short on  stoppung power. there are no leaks on the hydraulics , so i assume it is directly related to bb-failure itself or lack of vac pressure. question: what does this vac pump actually do? i noticed that there is already vac reaching the bb from the crank case. i am wondering whether the separate vac pump is only supplementing the main source of vac, while nether may be sufficient on its own ( pump/crank). if so, and my vac lines to bb dont look like leaking i would suspect the vac pump itself.

[lewisweller]

7 hours ago, 9552T500 said:

depresses right away upon start & takes 1-2 strokes to stiffen after engine is off....  the brake feels spongy as of late & bottoms out  / overall short on  stoppung power. there are no leaks on the hydraulics , so i assume it is directly related to bb-failure itself or lack of vac pressure. question: what does this vac pump actually do? i noticed that there is already vac reaching the bb from the crank case. i am wondering whether the separate vac pump is only supplementing the main source of vac, while nether may be sufficient on its own ( pump/crank). if so, and my vac lines to bb dont look like leaking i would suspect the vac pump itself.

1-2 pumps is less than I expected so I would be looking for the leak. If the vac pump was bad it would likely produce a code but I may be wrong. 

Spongy pedal is suspect of the brake booster fault as well assuming brake fluid level is correct?  If it was hydraulic then with engine off the pedal would depress to the floor and you confirmed it doesn't. 

Obviously at this point its prudent to say brakes are a major safety feature and taking advice on a forum from anybody is not as advisable as going to a well equipped garage and getting it diagnosed and fixed properly.

 

[9552T500]

18 minutes ago, lewisweller said:

1-2 pumps is less than I expected so I would be looking for the leak. If the vac pump was bad it would likely produce a code but I may be wrong. 

Spongy pedal is suspect of the brake booster fault as well assuming brake fluid level is correct?  If it was hydraulic then with engine off the pedal would depress to the floor and you confirmed it doesn't. 

Obviously at this point its prudent to say brakes are a major safety feature and taking advice on a forum from anybody is not as advisable as going to a well equipped garage and getting it diagnosed and fixed properly.

 

Double checked both sources of vac (pump and the line from crank case merging into BB   ), and neither behaves abnormal. So, I am excluding this for now. Dismounted the VAc pump / motor mount to trace  the vac line going to firewall. Good news is that I found a crack of the joint in the elbow just before entering the firewall (longitudinal & facing firewall-hard to see until I removed the stuff above & making space to move the line around). Going to  fix this next.

This line was already triggering BB failure couple years back  (Tee under Motor mount)- so I hope this new found vac leak is responsible for the strange brake behavior too. 

Again - the brake worked perfectly fine, and rather suddenly started acting up after driving in winter / very low temps for a week in January & all the CEL & other vac leaks since then. I think it must be very simple from here (brakes were done last summer , and all fluids levels did not change since then)...  

[lewisweller]

38 minutes ago, 9552T500 said:

Double checked both sources of vac (pump and the line from crank case merging into BB   ), and neither behaves abnormal. So, I am excluding this for now. Dismounted the VAc pump / motor mount to trace  the vac line going to firewall. Good news is that I found a crack of the joint in the elbow just before entering the firewall (longitudinal & facing firewall-hard to see until I removed the stuff above & making space to move the line around). Going to  fix this next.

This line was already triggering BB failure couple years back  (Tee under Motor mount)- so I hope this new found vac leak is responsible for the strange brake behavior too. 

Again - the brake worked perfectly fine, and rather suddenly started acting up after driving in winter / very low temps for a week in January & all the CEL & other vac leaks since then. I think it must be very simple from here (brakes were done last summer , and all fluids levels did not change since then)...  

Right about here?? 

Some people have epoxy bonded it back together as a fix but of course a new pipe (item 13 I believe excusing the terrible diagram representing the pipe that looks nothing much like it in reality) would give more piece of mind. 

[9552T500]

9 hours ago, lewisweller said:

Some people have epoxy bonded it back together as a fix but of course a new pipe (item 13 I believe excusing the terrible diagram representing the pipe that looks nothing much like it in reality) would give more piece of mind. 

Replacing item 13 does not look  convenient at all :(... I was thinking about shrink tube to seal it first . Maybe put a line in parallel and cut closer to BB .  Will post an update when I found a working workaround...

[lewisweller]

33 minutes ago, 9552T500 said:

Replacing item 13 does not look  convenient at all :(... I was thinking about shrink tube to seal it first . Maybe put a line in parallel and cut closer to BB .  Will post an update when I found a working workaround...

Yes I'm sure it's a pita to do. 

I would get a jubilee clip or two and some two part epoxy resin glue assemble it apply the epoxy when lovely and tacky but not already going off and then tighten up the jubilee clips. Once that epoxy goes hard it won't leak if you've done a good job. 

Suggest leave it overnight for adequate post curing of the epoxy resin. 

Jb weld is a product I've heard off on these forums works well. 

[9552T500]

3 minutes ago, lewisweller said:

 

Jb weld is a product I've heard off on these forums works well. 

did not think about jb weld, but thanks - i will keep that in mind 

[9552T500]

Hurra! Neither Brake Booster failure nor CEL anymore, brakes precisely and the beast roars as it should be  . Took several weekends to deal with the  aftermath from winter driving (fun, but somehow regret...) .  Now washed & waxed, and happy wife for life...Thanks once more to the folks here for the guidance.  

In turn - let me share my fix with  illustrations: 1. drill hole in old tube close to firewall to keep the substance but arrest the crack growth; 2. Pull rubber tubing (1mm wall thickness (some old Nissin brake hose seath from my motorcyle used-spares box (Typically collecting and I don't throw stuff like this away as there will be a re-use someday...)) over 1.5 in and the old spigot on the counter part ; 3. I also re-did the joint on the Tee below motor mount using a 8/12 mm ID/OD rubber tubing. To connect  this tube with the old plastic line I found some 1/2 in ID PEX tubing (Sharkbite...some residue form my last plumbing project on the house). This was a light interference fit by hand, and instantly perfectly sealed (some metal clamps maybe for safety , but I will leave it for the case the joint fails...).  That's it. After a few minutes drive around the block the BB failure msg was gone, and the CEL a further 15 miles down the road. Attaching few pix