2004 Cayenne light knocking

[Supra-p!g]

Have a 2004 Cayenne with 167K on the odo. Recently purchased. Very clean car (pristine!), all service records, and oil changes every 5K miles for entire history of the car. I recently changed the oil to M1 0W40, and noticed that the engine sounds louder, more valve train noise. Yesterday, my friend who has a 2006 Cayenne, noticed that I have a light knocking sound coming from the right center of the block (I never noticed it). It's an intermittent light knock that's hard to notice at first, but once you hear it, you can tell it's consistent -- knocking every few revolutions, but again hard to notice unless you're really trying to hear it.

 

Before I changed the oil, I noticed that the previous fill was a pretty thick consistency, clinging to the dipstick (the car was much quieter before). The previous oil was a 5w40 based on previous records I have. The M1 0w40 that I just put in is very thin, and just drips off the dipstick and is hard to see. My oil level is a bit high, I probably overfilled it by half a quart, it comes up to the top of black plastic gauge just past the Max mark.

 

Dreading the diagnosis of possible cylinder scoring, I would like to find a solution that could allow me to drive for a while before I have to rebuild or replace the motor.

 

My plan of action is to immediately change the oil to 5w40 Red Line. (I recently replaced the front diff, rear diff, and transfer case fluids with Red Line fluids.)

What suggestions do you have for plan of action, or solutions to prevent further damage if the lubrication is the culprit? Maybe this is misfire. The car has plenty of power and I've had no other issues.

 

BTW, I did the Turbo instrument panel upgrade and now love the color display on my S. Since this car is in absolutely new condition externally and interior, I would like to keep it driving it.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice. 

 

Just to add, when I blip the throttle at idle, I can hear what sounds like a pop noise sometimes coming from the engine bay. Almost like a rich condition causing backfire.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Supra-p!g
Added throttle blip backfire noise.

[JFP in PA]

Welcome to RennTech

 

I would do a leak down on the engine.  We have seen several of these vehicles that were sold with heavier weight oil in them because one or more cylinders walls were out of round or scored, and had piston slap that they wanted to quiet the engine before trading or selling the car.  And long before I would put your oil of choice in it, I would switch the engine to Gibbs DT40 (much better film strength and very high ZDDP levels).

[Supra-p!g]

Thanks for quick reply. This is what I was dreading, and explains the thicker oil. The car was in such good condition otherwise, so I went ahead with the purchase with the knowledge of the scoring possibility. Does the throttle blip backfire sound, or the fact that it does not burn any oil -- no smoke at startup or at any other time give any clues? Will get Gibbs DT40 for the oil change, thanks for advice. 

[JFP in PA]

The only two proven ways to detect cylinder problems are bore scoping or leak down values.  Bore scoping is actually preferred, but not everyone has the tool.

 

Every time we get a PPI for one of these vehicles, we include both tests, particularly if the oil is obviously thick and new.

 

Good luck.

[Supra-p!g]

Again, thanks for advice. I'll have a local Indy shop do a PPI for me with leak down test. In the event of scoring, and since it's just started, very light knocking -- would it be better to do a rebuild or replace the engine (I found one with 71K miles and for a reasonable price)?

[JFP in PA]

A rebuild is going to be very expensive, first because you need to have it done by a specialty shop, and second because the engine will need all new liners, which ain't cheap.

[Supra-p!g]

22 minutes ago, JFP in PA said:

A rebuild is going to be very expensive, first because you need to have it done by a specialty shop, and second because the engine will need all new liners, which ain't cheap.

 

That probably means that I can keep driving the car until it fails while I look for a replacement motor. I suspect that total failure can occur at anytime, but have seen some posts with member continuing to drive the car for thousands of miles after knocking starts, and then some that only have 500 miles before total failure.

[JFP in PA]

It is a total crap shoot without knowing how bad the situation really is.

[Supra-p!g]

Last question, what weight DT40 do recommend for my situation? Is heavier better at this point?

[JFP in PA]

Gibbs DT 40 is a 5W-40 oil with exceptional film strength and very high ZDDP levels to reduce further wear.  You really do not want to run excessively heavy weight oils as they will effect how the VarioCam system function.  Stick with the DT40.

[White987S]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 11:45 AM, JFP in PA said:

Welcome to RennTech

 

I would do a leak down on the engine.  We have seen several of these vehicles that were sold with heavier weight oil in them because one or more cylinders walls were out of round or scored, and had piston slap that they wanted to quiet the engine before trading or selling the car.  And long before I would put your oil of choice in it, I would switch the engine to Gibbs DT40 (much better film strength and very high ZDDP levels).

 

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 4:06 PM, JFP in PA said:

Gibbs DT 40 is a 5W-40 oil with exceptional film strength and very high ZDDP levels to reduce further wear.  You really do not want to run excessively heavy weight oils as they will effect how the VarioCam system function.  Stick with the DT40.

 

Lots of bad advice and information in these 2 posts.

 

First, to get the maximum benefit of the DT40 you MUST do an engine flush with Joe Gibbs BR30 for about 200-400 miles. Way too much cross pollination with other oil's additive package. Especially Mobil's. This is the exact recommendation buy the product's developers Lake Speed of Gibbs and Jake Raby's of Flat 6 Innovations.

 

Second, DT40 does NOT have "very high ZDDP". Not much higher than Mobil 0W40. Less than 100 ppm different for zinc and phosphorus. Read the VOAs and you'll easily see. And if you don't do the BR30 flush first, your actual ZDDP will be significantly LOWER than M1 0W40. Read the UOAs to easily see this cause & effect.

[JFP in PA]

Afraid I cannot agree.  While switching from another oil to the DT40 would benefit from a pre flush to remove any remaining old oil, it is not absolutely necessary.  Within on to two oil changes, any residual from the old oil would be removed by normal dilution and evacuation.  We have a lot of customers using DT40, and more than 90% chose to go with a simple oil change over the pre flush method, without any noticeable effect either in the engine or their UOA analysis when compared to those that chose the pre flush method.  Based upon that, if you want to go "belt & suspenders", do a pre flush; other wise just do a compete drain and refill.

 

As for total ZDDP levels, we often find UOA's on DT40 after 5-6 K miles demonstrate a higher ZDDP level than virgin Mobil products right out of the bottle.

[lewisweller]

Interesting Technical debate chaps. 

After seeing engine flush go in like water and come out like Tar I do see the logic behind pre-flush. 

 

Ironically if the bore(s) is scored the cost of the pre-flush will be long forgotten.  Gotta make light of it. 

Supra P!G I bought my ctt and head gasket blew shortly after, cost me 4,000usd including all the parts this thing has had new. 

 

[Supra-p!g]

5 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

Afraid I cannot agree.  While switching from another oil to the DT40 would benefit from a pre flush to remove any remaining old oil, it is not absolutely necessary.  Within on to two oil changes, any residual from the old oil would be removed by normal dilution and evacuation.  We have a lot of customers using DT40, and more than 90% chose to go with a simple oil change over the pre flush method, without any noticeable effect either in the engine or their UOA analysis when compared to those that chose the pre flush method.  Based upon that, if you want to go "belt & suspenders", do a pre flush; other wise just do a compete drain and refill.

 

As for total ZDDP levels, we often find UOA's on DT40 after 5-6 K miles demonstrate a higher ZDDP level than virgin Mobil products right out of the bottle.

 

I ordered  Gibbs DT 40 is a 5W-40 oil  last Friday. I suspect I could benefit from a flush if there is other junk in the motor to be cleaned out. I've only put on about 600 miles since moving to the Mobile 1. I may simply change the oil with the gibbs and go directly to a recommended local shop and get the cylinder walls examined. No other issues that I can see, but a really loud drive train with the M1 for sure.

 

I'm already looking at used motors just in case. From my research I've found that many shops have the opinion that all used motors will have some scoring in these 2004 models -- a basic design flaw with all of them due to "alu-seal (SP?)."

[ekstroemtj]

Dont want to say anything wrong about these cars but it happens quiet often. 

Design of the engine. I have the same problem. Happens from one day to next. At least i can remember the day it happens. A used engine isnt a solution. Risk is to high it will happen again. 

[Supra-p!g]

1 hour ago, ekstroemtj said:

Dont want to say anything wrong about these cars but it happens quiet often. 

Design of the engine. I have the same problem. Happens from one day to next. At least i can remember the day it happens. A used engine isnt a solution. Risk is to high it will happen again. 

 

So ultimately the solution is a rebuild?

[ekstroemtj]

Yes!  There is a need to be protected for future damages and what i hear and what i read a new block from porsche or a used one is not a solution. If you search in the forums you can find a lot of information. There are different ways how to do it. 

I am living in germany and had a lot of talks with guys who ( i believe) have deep knowledge of porsche engines. Its not only the cayenne. Other models too. There is a very interesting report from a well known porsche tuning company. If it was not german language i would post it here. i will try to translate

[ekstroemtj]

Here the report if someone is familiar with german language.  He is talking about the engines in general but our cayenne blocks are made in the same way- similar problems. 

 

http://theimann-motorengmbh.de/index.php/2015-10-28-16-06-53/problembeschreibung

[ekstroemtj]

I will try to translate later

[ekstroemtj]

 

This is the result if you use a translation app. Sorry cant do it more fast now:

 

 

 

 

Problems Lokasil operating jacks Porsche Boxster 2, 5L-2, 7L-3, 2L-Carrera 996 3, 4L-3, 6 L, as well as Carrera 997 3.6-3, 8 L

Description of the problem of the original Lokasil cylinder coated careers, experiencing the first water-cooled engines, from my point of view and 40-year-old Porsche Porsche. The engines we have repaired again during our activity approximately 380 pieces, about 70% have problems with the soft aluminum Lokasil cylinder raceways, the motor housing. Defective engines of this type was partly just read 21,000 km, the vehicles were information first-hand, the credible km...  

 

 

Despite again exchanged cylinder raceways or motor housing, these engines "again not long life expectation." had to soft aluminium Lokasil Everything has brought nothing to attempts with only sliding coating of the piston. Guarantees of service type-setter often already expired customers after relatively short life his engine "again" the loser. This old generation of cases are no longer installed in the new Porsche models. Why probably? Check the forums, what problems do these first water-cooled models. Many models available 996/997 or Boxster engine already 3 or 4. 

While motor housing hardly worn be used this way, get around as good as no longer given piston distance of 0.04 mm average. 

Our long experience has shown (painful and very expensive), already with a higher piston distance of 0,02 to 0, 03 mm engine knock making noise the piston tilt, the sharp edges of the piston rings this race very soft damage Lokasil cylinder and it comes other piston eater, scratches and cracks in the cylinders after a short time. In most cases, bearing housing, which runs the camshafts in the cylinder head, crankshaft and bearings so then through the resulting chips are the crank. New price of crankshaft with over 6,400 euros housings, cylinder heads 4,700 euros. 

Such repair is then hardly any cost to make relevant. You will need a replacement engine factory. The cost is around 18,000 euros. Has but again only the fragile aluminum Lokasil cylinder...!

We know vehicle owners from 996, Boxster, the 4th replacement engine in the vehicle have been.  

 

 

Even under the guidance and support provided by the manufacturer, piston Schmid, whose technical info and advice could we really stable and long-lasting engines with aluminium Lokasil cylinder worked. 

(We're talking 250,000 km and more, just as the first air-cooled engines, which also very long, steel cylinders in aluminium, much higher turned coat, that today we again use) These were engines that Porsche had won at all racetracks in the world. Of course, this old proven processing for the 987 is very expensive but also very durable 997 engines for us, 996, the price is only possible via the large quantities that we produce now.)

Aluminium Lokasil not so as expected keep the original ENGINES of the first series. Of 10 experienced Porsche companies make no water-cooled problem more 8 motors, we were also to give up. 3 warranty 2 years that no one has revised 10 Lokasil engines. Then we have the Council steel cylinder, as in racing to try. 

Exactly what Porsche successfully cylinder jacks used has built for many years without any problems, air-cooled engines on steel!

(Admittedly very complex and)

expensive for series production)

Ok. We, the last test thought (very expensive). After several attempts under the guidance of "We shot" multiple engines to the test again, until we had the correct cylinder alloy, which determines proper film play coating and the right piston, etc and also tried. The result of the last 146 engines built no backscatter! This was the BREAKTHROUGH for us then finally, finally!

According to many, ceramics trying better stopped, as anything other than nickel, chrome. We're talking durability not by short-term high extreme loads the first 20,000 KM here used in racing, but then renewed after each use. 

 

 

IMPORTANT INFORMATION:

Cylinder coatings, there are hundreds, also nickel O. ceramic, these coatings are approximately 0.05 mm up to 0.10 mm and hardly the career of cylinder cylinder against high pressures to strengthen aluminum and very often occur cylinders as they only on the first water these recurring cracks in alloy-cooled engines. Our steel, the Zylinder(Legierung), which is tried and tested for years at the top of the cylinder pressure range (shooting). 7 mm thick! about 700 to 1,400 times thicker than one can cope with thin, only coated aluminum cylinder and thus experience much better high pressure. AND this is important when the Porsche 986, 987, 996, 997, etc motor. 

I tell you, if you have worked 15 years in the Porsche, 15 years have made race you year cooled motors start over again in the 30th with the extremely dangerous water!

We use only modified intermediate shaft, there are always problems to other intermediate shafts as the original intermediate shaft with the. 
Our intermediate shafts are much more durable. 

 In addition, we've changed the oil pump!

Supplement for oil pans extension!

(In our opinion that is just as important as the other engine improvements, if not even more important!)

We had the result with the last 146 outdated Motors no motor more intermediate shafts or piston damage. After consultation with our customers even after the performance of over 200,000 km. 
Therefore has management decided to give guarantee everything is lubricated by oil circulation now 3 years and 35,000 KM! This is not the statutory warranty. 

We offer you a completely new Ausgebuchstes 3, 4L, 3. 6 L or. 3, 8 L also exchanged Boxster engine case with revised cylinder head, crankshaft, smooth coated piston with our guaranteed fresh polished new dimension of the camshafts, cylinder engine block completely together, after each request on request.  

"New cylinder Groove" type GT3. These liners simply have no more problems as its predecessor models, the technology and experience.  

& Gt; Finally, NO soft aluminium

LOKASIL cylinder & lt;

But steel cylinder as the racing version!

[ekstroemtj]

Long story short. Lot of engine rebuilders and even companies which doing engines for motor racing using steel sleeves now. They say, the only way to get rid of this problem. 

[JFP in PA]

I would be willing to bet the sleeves are an iron alloy rather than steel, which would destroy the pistons in no time.

 

There is another alternative in the LN Engineering "Nickies" aluminum allow liners; they are much stronger than the factory units, and do not have the issue of using dissimilar metals in an alloy engine case.  Not cheap, but they do work.

[ekstroemtj]

I know JFP.  There is a ongoing discussion about the way how to do it

[Supra-p!g]

I thank you all for your responses. 

 

I've fallen in love with the car. One of the main reasons why I got this individual car is the combination of the color, interior, and just the way it felt. I test drove several other Cayenne turbos and decided that this Cayenne S model would be the most practical, had the best off the line response at lower RPM. Given this, I would be open to rebuilding the motor correctly to keep enjoying the car for years to come. It seems that used motors are now quite cheap -- buying a replacement and taking my time to build is a step I would like to take.

 

I was in my garage/workshop last night and thought perhaps I could even mill some the parts that I need. I have a fully enclosed KIA CNC turning center/w Fanuc controller, and a supermax vertical CNC mill with A/B controller -- but just use my laptop on direct point to point feed. I suppose if I can get the drawings for the sleeves ... but then again not enough time in the day to everything since this is a hobby.

 

Does it matter if I get a motor with higher mileage, or one with less if I plan to make it a project rebuild? They all seem to sound very loud with clicking and noise no matter the mileage.

 

[ekstroemtj]

Lower miles- more expensive

still a risk something can happen in the future

 

higher miles less expensive

 

Save the money for rebuild if necessary 

 

just my opinion