Camshaft Position Deviation / Chain tensioner paddle pad replacement DIY vs Cost?

[JFP in PA]

Welcome to RennTech 

If your engine is original to the car, it should be a dual row bearing, but it never hurts to look before deciding.

 

I would have to say I totally agree with LN's assessment on parts replacement, but I would also add replacing the longer chain paddles as well, and do the oil pump drive replacement at the same time.  While several writeups have been done on completing a project like this with the engine still in the car, it is way easier and actually quicker to drop it out first.  That gives you much better access, and you can go over everything else like replacing the water pump and installing a low temp thermostat while you are at it.

 

When cam deviation values get this far out of spec, you have to remember it is due to wear, and it is not going to heal all by itself.  Do the job right, and you will only do it once and get to enjoy the car for years to come.  And if the car was in my shop, I would recommend going with the IMS Solution rather than the ceramic hybrid bearing.

 

Good luck!

[hankster66]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:54 PM, JFP in PA said:

Welcome to RennTech 

If your engine is original to the car, it should be a dual row bearing, but it never hurts to look before deciding.

 

I would have to say I totally agree with LN's assessment on parts replacement, but I would also add replacing the longer chain paddles as well, and do the oil pump drive replacement at the same time.  While several writeups have been done on completing a project like this with the engine still in the car, it is way easier and actually quicker to drop it out first.  That gives you much better access, and you can go over everything else like replacing the water pump and installing a low temp thermostat while you are at it.

 

When cam deviation values get this far out of spec, you have to remember it is due to wear, and it is not going to heal all by itself.  Do the job right, and you will only do it once and get to enjoy the car for years to come.  And if the car was in my shop, I would recommend going with the IMS Solution rather than the ceramic hybrid bearing.

 

Good luck!

Thanks for all the advice JFP! I was seriously considering the IMS Solution, but the economics seemed strange to me... $1,800??? I understand one and done, but I could essentially have a solid dual row for 6 years / 75k miles during which I continue to evaluate my investment in the car, and even if I kept it for 12 years I'd still be at the price of the solution. Just seems like a big leap at that price compared to the alternatives out there.

[JFP in PA]

Like a lot of other people, you are focusing on price alone.  First of all, looking at anything for a depreciating asset can hardly be considered as an investment, so I cannot see how the term applies..  And sure, there are other cheaper alternatives, and some of them might actually work for some period of time. But the IMS Solution is the only retrofit that has been purposely tested to engine failure during development, and is the only retrofit that can actually be removed from an engine that suffered some other catastrophic failure, such as a snapped connecting rod or a dropped valve, and reinstalled in a replacement engine without any problems. It has been run with the oil feed line disconnected for prolonged periods on a dyno with only minor wear visible, both because of the use of diamond like coating and annular oiling groves on the surfaces..  It is the only oil fed system that successfully eliminated flooding the IMS shaft with oil, which causes other problems.  It is extremely well thought out and tested, and to my knowledge none has ever failed.

 

So yes, it cost more than other alternatives, most better designed hardware usually does.  A lot of people will tell you that there is no real difference between tools from Harbor Freight and Snap On, but those of us that use those tools to make our living will tell you the differences are profound, and choose accordingly.  I personally own two installed Solutions that are years old and have never looked back or regretted choosing them over the lesser alternatives.

[hankster66]

Thanks JFP for all the advice, including your insights into LN IMS Solution, as I had not seen that level of detail on their development protocols... you've given me more to think about. Relatively speaking to get the car on the road in a much better place than it is now at the best economic value, I'll likely go the retrofit route. If I were tracking the car or putting it under extreme conditions, I might go a different route. Entering as a developing DIYer new to the P-Car realm, I'm trying to find the right balance between convenience and budget, and thread the needle between the philosophies of getting ahead of it and not fixing what's not broken. Also appreciate the tip on the oil pump drive where I then noticed an old post you did. These kinds of things seem prudent, timely and with the other work going into it very budget friendly.

 

To be certain about cam deviation, , I re-ran both shortly after cold start and prolonged drive...
- FIRST TIME (30+ min Idle): -10.44 / -5.64
- 2ND TIME COLD (5 min idle): -10.84 / -5.67
- 2ND TIME HOT (15 min idle + 30 min drive): -10.13 / 5.64

Waiting for manometer to test AOS, and will do filter/sump evaluation, but assuming I'm only dealing with typical timing issue (pad/chain), my tentative project plans are below. 

DOING NOW WITH ENGINE / TRANNY DROPPED
- Clutch / Flywheel (including updating clutch lever / pin, etc.)
- IMS (LN Dual Row Retrofit) / RMS
- Bank 1 and Bank 2 Variocam Pads
- Cam to Cam chains
- Possibly the inaccessible tensioner(s) (some doubt here driven by learning that some/all tensioners updated in late '00 after my car)
- Spark Plugs (90k service; new seals for tubes)
- Water Pump / LN Low Temp Thermostat
- Oil pump hex drive, pressure relief upgrade (as you suggested, and latter I saw in separate thread)
- All new seals, including for solenoids
- Any tubes, etc. I discover along the way needing replacement

TENTATIVELY NOT DOING (Items that can only be done with engine out, but not obvious I need to do now)
- Long chains / paddles (have some doubts here, but tentatively thinking not typical/obvious issue unless I discover otherwise in teardown)
- cam bearings (might measure for wear, but likely not needed)
- piston rings (unrelated, but bring up since having to tear down engine; will do leak down test before teardown)
- Solenoids (will test to be sure in operating condition; seen many just go ahead and replace, but again trying to find a practical balance)
- con rod bolt upgrades (seen some recommendations to do so, and may do so if I do a full tear down or not)

DOING LATER (To phase cost and project work that are easy enough to do w/ Engine in)
- Accessible chain tensioners
- AOS (if manometer test comes back ok)
- Coils (While a nice-to-do, not seeing an urgent need, unless I discover some damage)

Any thoughts on above. Did I miss anything to consider? Are there any items that can/should be tested / measured during teardown to evaluate whether to replace now or later? Thanks, in advance, for any insights.

   

[hankster66]

PROJECT UPDATE

 

So finally got my project kicked off and in draining fluids, found the expected plastic timing guide bits, but also found two metal pieces, one rather large that I was not expecting. There was nothing in the filter. Found these at bottom of sump. Any thoughts what's going on?

 

[Silver_TT]

Is the metal ferrous?

[hankster66]

None of the bits are ferrous. The little dark ones appear plastic and likely from chain guides. The two silver ones are metallic, but non ferrous. The larger piece's diameter is slightly larger than that of a penny. The oil filter had some metallic specks but nothing extreme in size or quantity. I'm sending oil to blackstone to be evaluated. In all my research, just have not seen anything that looks like the larger piece of metal.

[DBJoe996]

IMS or crankshaft thrust bearing? Just guessing...