CEL - P1325 Camshaft adjustment bank 1

[talkenrain]

Greetings,

I've got an issue with my 2000 996. it's been pretty healthy up till now, still with original IMS (about 80k miles so it's time to change). No unusual noises or behaviors but recently the CEL came on and the idle became just a little ruff, I checked the CEL with my Durametric - Error code P1325 - Porsche fault code 178 - Camshaft adjustment bank 1.

 

After some reading about dirt in the system, I did what was suggested and changed my oil and filter. I checked for metal in the filter. I found very little, a few dark flakes but nothing out of the ordinary.

 

I cleared the error and within a few trips the same CEL error was back. I then checked the actual values of the camshaft position deviation and actual angle for camshafts. Here is what i found:

 

I've read the spec is +-6 degrees? I cleared the P1325 code and the idle smoothed out but after a short drive, the CEL came back on and idle became slightly ruff again. This video is with the CEL cleared:

 

Note "camshaft position 1 deviation" is slightly worse with cell cleared. Can someone help me understand what i'm seeing and what the problem might be?

Advice please...

Edited April 7, 2016 by talkenrain

[JFP in PA]

 P1325 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 2 – Signal Implausible Possible fault cause: - Dirt in system - Solenoid hydraulic valve mechanically blocked .         

 

Have quick read of this: http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/24113-obd2-fault-code-p1325-inlet-camshaft-bank-2/

[talkenrain]

Thanks JFP,

I've searched the forum for info but sadly, not found a solution. The link you suggested had me on the edge of my seat reading every line, just to find there was no resolution to the problem. I've read a few other stories but still no clarity on a solution. I'm wondering how serious of an issue this is. I've not driven the car since but would really like to know if it would do damage to drive or just take a performance hit. Any other suggestions? please post...

 

Thanks,

[Ahsai]

And please read this thread too and make sure you read it to the end.

 

http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/49340-diy-question/

[Ahsai]

Also as John pointed out before, trust those readings only if the engine has warmed up. You may have two issues - bank 2 cam sensor not reading correctly and cam deviation a bit out of spec for bank 1. The former can be a wiring or solenoid issue and the latter most likely is caused by worn out variocam pads (the black plastic bits you see in the oil filter).

Edited April 7, 2016 by Ahsai

[JFP in PA]

Thanks JFP,

I've searched the forum for info but sadly, not found a solution. The link you suggested had me on the edge of my seat reading every line, just to find there was no resolution to the problem. I've read a few other stories but still no clarity on a solution. I'm wondering how serious of an issue this is. I've not driven the car since but would really like to know if it would do damage to drive or just take a performance hit. Any other suggestions? please post...

 

Thanks,

 

Resolution typically requires some additional diagnostics and disassembly.  The code you are throwing is often just a blocked oil passage in the solenoid valve, which is not that bad a swap out, but does require some mechanical skills.  The cam deviation values are usually related to worn cam tensioner pads that simply have to be replaced.  In any case, the system needs to be opened up and inspected, and the appropriate components assessed and replaced as required. Because replacing the pads requires further disassembly of the cam drive, some additional tooling and knowledge is also required.  And as Ahsai noted, cam deviation values should only be noted after the engine is completely warmed up (we suggest a 20 min. drive before testing); cold or partially warmed engines lead to strange and often completely misleading test values.

 

Both can be DIY projects if you have the necessary facilities and the time, and we often see people fabricating some of the otherwise special tooling with complete success.

[talkenrain]

I will run the devation graph again after a good warm up. I'll also do some reading on the cam tensioner pad replacement and blocked passages in the solenoid valve. I'm pretty handy with a wrench. Not afraid to get into it. Just wondering if the engine needs to be pulled to replace the cam tensioner pads?

 

So what I gather is the p1325 error is not necessarily my IMS about to go and the risk of causing damage driving it is relatively low (what I mean is not much higher than before the error), correct?

 

​I had plans to pull the transmission later this spring to replace the IMS and clutch at the same time. Can this p1325 error wait till then, OR address the p1325 error separately (right away), OR should I move up my IMS/clutch up to right away (this is a tuff one, my time is short right now)?

 

Just trying to get a sense of urgency... The Porsche dealership is not an option - Don't have the $$$.

[JFP in PA]

P1325 is not IMS related.  If you followed the threads mentioned, the solenoid's are mounted into the cam covers, and can be extracted without much fuss, although they are in a bit of a tight location.  As such, you should be able to get at the offending unit and see if it is the external hold down that has failed (common) or it is the solenoid itself that is problematic.  I would not let the solenoid go for a long period as one bank is basically running without the benefit of the VarioCam system, so the car should be down on performance at a minimum.

 

Assuming that you properly warm the car, and the deviation values are still out of spec (+/- 6 degrees at idle), the wear pads are a bit more formidable a project as the cam covers have to come off to access them, and you are going to need cam retaining bars to hold the cams in place safely while doing this.  It can be done with the engine in, but it is going to be tight, plus a lot of stuff (primarily the exhaust) has to come out just to get the cam cover off.  Your attached video shows that the cam deviation values are steady, so again the IMS is not involved.

 

Personally, I would address the solenoid first, and after that is fixed, clear the P1325 code and warm the engine before rerunning the cam deviation values.  If the deviation values remains out of spec, you are faced with a choice of doing the wear pads with the engine in or  out.  As you are planning to do the IMS anyway, I would consider dropping the engine and doing everything on a stand (including the RMS and AOS as well).  That would be much easier and less time consuming than doing it in the car, and you can go over everything else at the same time (oil leaks, etc.), then pop it back in ready to go.

[talkenrain]

Thanks JFP, I will take your advice addressing the P1325 error first. The cars performance seems unchanged. Really the only thing I've noticed a slightly ruff idle but after clearing the error code, its smooth again (until the P1325 error comes back).

 

I'll keep posting my progress..

[talkenrain]

Ok, Just a quick update. I took the car for an hour long drive, heated to temperature.

 

Here is the results for the camshaft deviation with the P1325 Error:

 

 

Her is the same setup but just after clearing the P1325 Error:

 

Moving on to troubleshoot the solenoids...

Edited April 9, 2016 by talkenrain

[talkenrain]

I want to update as my work had me out of the country for a while and I've not had the time to address this so the car has sat in the garage up till now. So I'd like to get back to this. Today i reattached the Durametric and this time while watching the actual cam timing while activating bank one and bank two cam shaft bank solenoids. Activating bank one changed (using the Durametric) the cam timing and engine idle a lot (about 22 degrees). Doing the same with bank two did nothing. This leads me to believe the error message I'm getting has a typo or something is not lining up.  Most importantly, one bank responds with about 22 degrees shift, the other does not. According to the data, it's bank 2 thats not responding. Is this common? has anyone else seen this? Does this sound like a solenoid or something bigger? My real question is can I fix this at home or will it require a shop visit. I'm pretty good wrenching my own car but if requires a lot of special tools or an engine pull, thats just to much time/work for me. Please advise...

 

The pictures show activating bank one and the response I see (and hear in the engine idle). Doing the same with bank 2 gives zero change.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by talkenrain

[Ahsai]

Yes, it's a Durametric typo! Per the DME7.2 diagnostic manual, P1325 is Camshaft adjustment bank 2.

[Ahsai]

Unplug the solenoid and check its resistance, should be around 13ohm. If it is, there are lots of things to check. Check the following thread which can help you isolate if it's the solenoid/actuator, wiring, or DME (transistor).

 

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/815258-variocam-actuator-trigger-voltage.html

 

 

[talkenrain]

Oh wow, Thank you for the info and link. If this is my problem, I'll be happy to fix it. I'm a lot more comfortable with electronics than special tools to replace parts hard to reach or requires hours of disassembly. I'll update soon but thanks again.

 

[dporto]

Unfortunately, on a 2000 M96 you've got to remove the cam cover to replace the solenoid. It's easiest to remove cam cover and reseal it if the engine is out of the car...This does indeed require many hours of disassembly...

[talkenrain]

I plan to jump on this today. I'm going to first check the solenoid resistance from the DME connector (from what I read it seems to be easer to access than from the engine compartment). If that looks good, I'll try disconnecting pin 25 and activating the solenoid with a external supply (small battery) while the engine idles. If it changes, I know it's the DME. If not, then I'll have to jump into the  engine compartment and get my hands dirty.

[talkenrain]

I decided to pull the DME first thing. When I got to the area of it I discovered it has a bunch of connectors rather than one big one. I disconnected them all, pulled it from my car and took it to my work bench (see picts). It's different than i expected (my car is a 2000 C2). I don't have the pin out for this model, but decided to take a look inside. 

[talkenrain]

Well, no burnt parts or smell but after some close observation I notice something (see picts)... Could I be so lucky to find a bad solder joint? I'm sure this should be soldered down to make contact. I have no idea if this is the device that controls the solenoid in question but my bet is, it is... I'm going to solder it down and put it back together for a quick test. Back with more results soon...

[Ahsai]

Looks like you got what you wished for :)

[talkenrain]

Oh My Gosh, that was it... I hooked everything back up. Durametric can now control both banks. Thanks so much for your help. A two year problem resolved with just a little solder. Could not have done without your help thanks again .

 

Oh, I added a few more picts of the job (for the next guy with this issue). My soldering doesn't look great but I was concerned I'd overheat the device. The solder flowed to the pads and component so it's all good... 

Edited June 24, 2017 by talkenrain

[Ahsai]

Well done and my pleasure to help.

[talkenrain]

Well, I guess i'm not out of the woods yet... I noted something funny about my results I'd like to confirm because I still occasionally get a P1325 error (it's much better than it was but I'd like to fix it 100%). Please confirm a few things for me. In my first and second picture (above) it shows my ability to activate bank 1 and deactivate it by clicking the "start" and "stop" buttons in the Dramatic software (see mouse hover and resulting timing changes). I also hear the engine idle change when i activate and return to normal when I deactivate bank 1.

 

When I activate bank 2 (click the start button for bank 2) I hear a change in the engine idle but then the engine idle quickly returns to normal (within seconds). I also see a very short change in the timing graph for bank 2 (see attached picture). This is without ever clicking the bank 2 "stop" button. Just to confirm, the timing graph (and idle change) should hold until "Stop" is clicked, right?

 

I'm going to go back and check the voltage at the device in the DME that supplies ground to the solenoid. I want to see if it holds consistent when I activate bank 2 or if it's just a pulse.

 

Assuming my thoughts are correct that the software should treat both banks the same. What do you think would cause the brief change only in bank 2? is it mechanical (is the solenoid maybe sticking) or maybe electronics (maybe DME has got more issues)?

Edited June 26, 2017 by talkenrain

[Ahsai]

Yes, the DME should keep grounding the solenoid until you click "stop". Very strange problem indeed. I wonder if the solenoid is overloading the transistor and that causes it to shut down. A simple test is to check the resistance of the solenoid. Also, disconnect the solenoid and plug a 6w 12v bulb to substitute the solenoid and then try Durametric activation again.

[talkenrain]

I was just going to update. I think you are correct...

 

So here I go assuming again... Using my ohm meter I worked backwards from the device i re-soldered in the DME to discover it's connected to pin #3 of connector #5 (would sure be nice to have a pin out of the DME). I don't know what pin is the other side of the solenoid circuit or I would ohm the entire path. I ran the bank 2 test again using the Dramatic  measuring the voltage at pin #3. With everything connected and the engine running its at 13.5v. when I activate bank 2 to drops to 2.5v for just a second then back to 13.5v.

 

Because it's a active pull down only circuit it should not hurt to short pin #3 to ground. I did using my amp meter and the engine idle changed and stayed changed till i removed the short (as expected). The interesting part is the amp meter showed a much higher current draw than expected I checked again and the solenoid circuit was drawing about 8.5amps  (I'd expected to see about 1amp).

 

It looks like although the solenoid is still working it has a short or something in my wiring has a short and the DME shuts down when it senses a high current condition. I'm thinking the reason the solder connection failed was due to heat from all the current the circuit was trying to draw. Anyway, I am now going to get my hands dirty and ohm out the solenoid at it's connector (as you so wisely advised from the beginning).

 

Any advice on locating and puling this connector (I'm still not clear on exactly where it is). Can I get to it without pulling the heat shield or exhaust? is it high on the engine? Can I reach it from the top (through the rear hatch)? Hot day/hot engine = no fun... Once i get to the connector i'll ohm it and do the lightbulb test.

 

[Ahsai]

The one the red arrow points to. This is showing bank 1. Not sure about bank2 but it should be symmetrical.