Auto Transmission Fluid change

[Hilux2400]

They are really worth buying as they have lots of uses in the home aside from vehicle use. They are also useful for checking coolant temperatures at various points.

[JFP in PA]

They are also very handy around the shop for checking what you can touch, and what you shouldn't until it cools off.  Saved a lot of blisters already...... :eek:

[dougg996]

 

I have read on posts elsewhere that the wheels need to turn while you go through the gear shift dance in the second part of the fill process involving warming up the ATF to 40 degrees and completing the fill. I note that the workshop manual simply describes moving the gear shift slowly through all the shift positions pausing for about two seconds at each position. Does any body know whether the wheels need to turn in order to get ATF into the torque converter etc?

 

No.  With the engine running, and the trans in gear, the front  pump is running at full pressure and everything is full.

 

One further query JFP, how important is it to drain all fluid from the system ie. from cooling lines etc?

[JFP in PA]

 

 

I have read on posts elsewhere that the wheels need to turn while you go through the gear shift dance in the second part of the fill process involving warming up the ATF to 40 degrees and completing the fill. I note that the workshop manual simply describes moving the gear shift slowly through all the shift positions pausing for about two seconds at each position. Does any body know whether the wheels need to turn in order to get ATF into the torque converter etc?

 

No.  With the engine running, and the trans in gear, the front  pump is running at full pressure and everything is full.

 

One further query JFP, how important is it to drain all fluid from the system ie. from cooling lines etc?

 

 

The only way to get all the fluid out of the trans is to take it out of the car and then take it apart, which is ridiculous for obvious reasons.  There are no external ATF lines on these transmissions, the cooler is mounted to the side of the trans and engine coolant is run to it.  You can get most (80-85% of what is not in the converter) of the ATF out of the trans by a simple gravity drain, but this is still only about half the total system capacity, the rest of which remains trapped inside valve body passages, clutch packs, etc.; with the lions share of the remaining fluid trapped inside the torque converter itself.  Because of this retention of old fluid, it is a good idea to shorten the maintenance cycle from the factory 90K miles to something in the range of 40K miles for a street car, less for one that is tracked regularly.  For a trans that has fluid in very bad shape, multiple fill, run, and drains remains the best option to get as much out as is possible.

[Airiscool]

Which ATF fluid are 2011+ Cayenne owners using?

 

The dealer fluid is horrendously expensive but there seem to be a couple of OE-alternatives at a fair price.

 

Febi Bilstein Part  #:958 300 540 00  Cross Ref: 29934

 

Fuchs Titan ATF 4400 Part #:958 300 540 00  Cross Ref: 600705626

 

Of the two the Fuchs appears to be the most OE-ish and might actually be the factory fluid in a different container??? Pelican says "Fuchs Titan ATF 4400 is an OEM supplier to Porsche."

 

Can anyone confirm if 8L is enough when doing a gravity drain + fill ?

[deilenberger]

I thought the 958 8-speed is a ZF built transmission, not Japanese. The Fuchs website doesn't list this as compatible with the Porsche fluid. Pelican may be correct for the 955/957 6 speed transmission built by Aisin transmissions, which indeed are Japanese.

 

http://www.fuchs.com/us/en/special/product/product/titan-atf-4400/

 

From the Fuch's website:

 

Quote

TITAN ATF 4400

Ultra High Performance ATF specifically formulated for Japanese passenger cars and light commercial vehicles. The high torque capacity exceeds the performance of many original fluids. Product dyeing: red.

Edited February 18, 2017 by deilenberger

[JFP in PA]

I just love it when people in their inexorable quest to try and save a buck buying cheap unknown spec lubricants for their $100K vehicles rather than getting the correct products; it is logic like this that keeps independent shops in business, repairing the damage.

[deilenberger]

AutoAtlanta lists alternatives specifically for the 958 series:  http://www.autoatlanta.com/results.php?partnumber2=958 300 540 00&page=1 - these include the Febi Bilstein replacement fluid. At $13,000+ for a replacement transmission I'd like to be certain that what is going in is the correct fluid.

 

Here is the Pelican page for the same thing: http://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/95830054000.htm?pn=958-300-540-00-M36 - a bit cheaper.

 

Sunset Porsche has the factory oil for somewhat less than most other on-line dealers: http://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/oe-porsche/95830054000

[deilenberger]

Some more research - lead me to: http://www.pentosin.net/f_transmissionfluid.asp - which in searching turns up their ATF 1 LV as being compatible - both with apparently the 8 speed ZF boxes and what appears to be the 6 speed Aisin boxes (also used in lots of Cadillacs and Toyota/Lexus vehicles.)

[Airiscool]

3 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

I just love it when people in their inexorable quest to try and save a buck buying cheap unknown spec lubricants for their $100K vehicles rather than getting the correct products; it is logic like this that keeps independent shops in business, repairing the damage.

 

Me?

 

Where did I ask about "cheap unknown spec lubricants"? It is easy to find the exact specs for both of these fluids and anyone that hasn't heard of Febi Bilstein or Fuchs must have limited knowledge of European fluid suppliers.

 

Can we all agree that Porsche doesn't produce ATF fluids in-house for the transmissions that they outsource from another vendor (Aisin or ZF....TBD) ? With that in mind, putting some effort into locating the original supplier/manufactuer of the fluid that Porsche specs for this 8-speed is hardly a foolish exercise, especially since we are talking about 8L - 9L of fluid at a $30 - $40 per L saving. Sounds like a sensible exercise to me.

 

In my experience it usually possible to find a non-OE fluid (engine/trans/diff/brake) that is superior in quality to OE fluid (better base stock, less shear, higher VI, etc) for the same or less money. 

 

Car and Driver: "As with all the other gasoline engines, power is transmitted via a completely new eight-speed automatic transmission sourced from Aisin that shifts quickly and very smoothly."

 

Road & Track:  "The Aisin 8-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission eliminates the need for a low-range transfer case within the Cayenne's new lighter (surprise!), on-demand all-wheel-drive system, while Porsche claims faster (albeit imperceptible) shift speeds over 8-speed on-road-only gearbox."

 

Maybe both sources are wrong?

[JFP in PA]

Our experience is exactly opposite; we see vehicles after someone has used the wrong fluids and they have either crapped out after very few miles, or were never the correct spec in the first place, often resulting in catastrophic damage.  These gearboxes are ridiculously expensive just to buy either new or used, much less the labor costs to pull and replace.  Porsche does not sell parts for them, only complete gearboxes, and very few shops have the tooling or expertise to work on them.  In my world, using another lubricant without fully understanding its specs is running a very large risk on something that can bite you big time directly in your wallet.

[Airiscool]

2 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

Our experience is exactly opposite; we see vehicles after someone has used the wrong fluids and they have either crapped out after very few miles, or were never the correct spec in the first place, often resulting in catastrophic damage.  These gearboxes are ridiculously expensive just to buy either new or used, much less the labor costs to pull and replace.  Porsche does not sell parts for them, only complete gearboxes, and very few shops have the tooling or expertise to work on them.  In my world, using another lubricant without fully understanding its specs is running a very large risk on something that can bite you big time directly in your wallet.

 

JFP

 

I don't disagree with anything you said and no doubt damage can be done by using the wrong fluids or lubricants in any mechanical device, but once one understand the properties of the fluid(s) in question and they match or exceed the OE specs and performance there is no shame in using something other than OE. I am not sure what Porsche's current recommendation is but for quite a while they spec'd Mobil 1 0W-40 for all air-cooled 911s and you don't have to search very hard to find a large number of experts that will tell you there are superior engine oils for these air-cooled engines. Brake fluid is another example - why not use something like Motul 600, Castrol SRF or Endless RF650 (Porsche Cup car spec!) rather than generic not-made-by-Porsche Porsche-lebeled DOT 4? These special fluids might be more hygroscopic than the OE fluid, requiring more frequent changes, but one shouldn't be chastised for using any of these fluids in a Porsche because they certainly aren't inferior. 

 

I will continue searching until I find the OE manufacturer of the ATF that Porsche sticks their label on, then I will compare the specs to the other available options to determine what to use in my 958TT. If I find a fluid that I like better than the Porsche dealer fluid and it costs more than the Porsche fluid I will gladly buy it. 

 

Since you know these rigs well can you please confirm if the transmission is made by Aisin or ZF?

 

 

Regards 

[JFP in PA]

8 hours ago, Airiscool said:

 

JFP

 

I don't disagree with anything you said and no doubt damage can be done by using the wrong fluids or lubricants in any mechanical device, but once one understand the properties of the fluid(s) in question and they match or exceed the OE specs and performance there is no shame in using something other than OE. I am not sure what Porsche's current recommendation is but for quite a while they spec'd Mobil 1 0W-40 for all air-cooled 911s and you don't have to search very hard to find a large number of experts that will tell you there are superior engine oils for these air-cooled engines. Brake fluid is another example - why not use something like Motul 600, Castrol SRF or Endless RF650 (Porsche Cup car spec!) rather than generic not-made-by-Porsche Porsche-lebeled DOT 4? These special fluids might be more hygroscopic than the OE fluid, requiring more frequent changes, but one shouldn't be chastised for using any of these fluids in a Porsche because they certainly aren't inferior. 

 

I will continue searching until I find the OE manufacturer of the ATF that Porsche sticks their label on, then I will compare the specs to the other available options to determine what to use in my 958TT. If I find a fluid that I like better than the Porsche dealer fluid and it costs more than the Porsche fluid I will gladly buy it. 

 

Since you know these rigs well can you please confirm if the transmission is made by Aisin or ZF?

 

 

Regards 

 

No one is suggesting that there are no other near equivalent fluids out there, but without a detailed factory spec sheet, it can be difficult to impossible for the average person to figure out which is which.  Porsche is also well known for using unique lubricants in their manual gearboxes which are literally made to their specs.  That does not mean there aren't other lubes that would work to some degree, but most find out the hard way that using aftermarket products lead to a litany of operational issues, and quite often damage as well.  You might be surprised how many times we get cars in that had been switched to other products either by their owners or another shop, and problems resulted in the car coming to us because we use only the factory lubes. 

 

Several years ago I approached one of the known suppliers of these lubricants and was told outright that what they make for Porsche is unique to Porsche, and cannot be sold to anyone else because of exclusive marketing agreements between them and Porsche.  As the result, we still buy ours from Porsche, albeit in drums, which are plainly marked as made by one of two companies.

 

Based upon what I have been told by someone from the Porsche factory, they are (or were) ZF.  As Porsche often uses more than one supplier, they may also some that come from other suppliers; but I was told ZF.

[deilenberger]

I've been searching for the reference to ZF and the 958 series that I saw and so far am coming up empty. I distinctly remember being surprised that they had changed vendors from Aisin - which is why I remembered it. I vaguely remember it being in some Porsche promotional material, but so far I haven't been able to find it. I'll keep looking..

[deilenberger]

Searched the ZF and Aisin websites. Found references to Porsche/Cayenne on the ZF website - but not for transmissions or driveline components. Found references for Porsche for automatic transmissions on the Aisin website - but no specifics as to years/models.

[JFP in PA]

Asin makes both manual and automatic gearboxes for several different car brands, ranging from Porsche to Nissan, Honda, and Toyota.  They are also one of the largest manufacturers of the CVT transmissions showing up in many brands of vehicles.

[wizard]

I found the simplest and most reliable way to ascertain for sure the make of the Tiptronic on my Boxster was to crawl underneath and find the (green) plate stamped to the casing which details manufacturer, transmission designation and part number. In my case, the one for ZF was readily visible.

 

From memory, the ZF website lists all transmissions manufactured by them, and the recommended ATF for each.

[Airiscool]

I was able to confirm that the Cayenne (958) 8-speed auto/Tip box is made by Aisin in Japan.

 

I wonder if the OE fluid supplier is a European or Japanese company? My search continues 

[b-man]

I have a 2016 Cayenne Diesel.  My understanding is that Aisin made the transmissions for the 2016 Cayenne Diesel.  My understanding is that the transmissions for all other 2016 Cayenne models were made by ZF. 

 

I hope this information is helpful.

 

b-man

 

 

[Mita11]

I  think B-man is right, I have 2014 Cayenne Diesel. The transmission type is Aisin AN2, TR-81SD. The ATF should meet the Aisin AW1 specification. I found only Fusch Titan ATF 4400 meet this specification.

 

I was not able to find separate filling hole on the sides of the transmission.

 

Regarding the filling process there is one thing I am worried about: if we use the drain/fill plug for fill the pressure in the transmission should be building up because there is no bleeding space hole. This can prevent to push enough ATF into the pan. If you check the fill level by removing the filling tube than the pressure is gone of course, but how the factory adapter We1389 is working in this case? If they open the valve checking the level then the pressure will push out the oil remained in the copper needle. If it is not overfilled than the oil drip should be stopped shortly after the valve opening.  If it works this way than it is messy.