About to do my chain pads - engine in or out?

[Youri Ko]

Good monday morning!

 

Pulled my sump yestarday, found 4 littles bits 1/16x1/8" of brownish plastic. 2001 C2 90K

I have some deviation on bank one of -6.2 so from my limited knoledge, variovam pads need to be replaced.

 

Anyone done it with the engine in? Any inputs?

 

I'm leaning more towards pulling the engine/tranny out, and doing them "confortably". And while in there. check the IMS, water pump and stuff.

 

All info will be appreciated. 

[JFP in PA]

Good monday morning!

 

Pulled my sump yestarday, found 4 littles bits 1/16x1/8" of brownish plastic. 2001 C2 90K

I have some deviation on bank one of -6.2 so from my limited knoledge, variovam pads need to be replaced.

 

Anyone done it with the engine in? Any inputs?

 

I'm leaning more towards pulling the engine/tranny out, and doing them "confortably". And while in there. check the IMS, water pump and stuff.

 

All info will be appreciated. 

 

It can be done with the engine in, but it is a bear; almost like building ship in a bottle.  With the engine out and on a stand, it is much easier.

 

Just how are you planning to "check the IMS"?

[Youri Ko]

It can be done with the engine in, but it is a bear; almost like building ship in a bottle.  With the engine out and on a stand, it is much easier.

 

Just how are you planning to "check the IMS"?

 

 

 

 

JFP -  exactly the guy I was hoping to get a reply from!!

 

Just how are you planning to "check the IMS"?

 

 

I don't know - you tell me  :D

Edited March 14, 2016 by Youri Ko

[JFP in PA]

There is no real "checking" of the IMS without pulling it, and then it needs to be replaced anyway (you cannot reuse one that has been extracted from the engine).  As yours in an 01 you will need to check the flange plate in order to determine which style (single or dual row) is in the car before ordering a replacement.

[Youri Ko]

Thanks.

Thinking to go with Pelican $$ if mine is single. Any inputs?

[JFP in PA]

The Pelican IMS is basically a replacement stock unit, so as soon as you install it, you have the same odds of failure as the factory bearing.  Pelican also does not make a dual row bearing, instead they use a single row bearing and a spacer if the engine is dual row, which amounts to replacing the strongest design factory bearing with the weakest.

 

If you have a single row, go with the LN IMS Pro, if you have a dual row, go with the LN hybrid ceramic dual row.  In either case, you could also consider the IMS Solution, which is the only permanent IMS retrofit.

[Youri Ko]

Got this obivous leak. What needs to be changed exactly to fix it properly?

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Youri Ko

[JFP in PA]

Got this obivous leak. What needs to be changed exactly to fix it properly?

 

Thanks

 

I don't see a leak, just a lot of accumulated dirt.  What are you referring to?

[Youri Ko]

 

Got this obivous leak. What needs to be changed exactly to fix it properly?

 

Thanks

 

I don't see a leak, just a lot of accumulated dirt.  What are you referring to?

 

 

Sorry, my bad, forgot to specify, engine was washed two times before the pic was taken.

Leak was surounding that plastic Y shaped thingy, some sort of a breather, with 3 ends. Plain middle of the picture.

[Ahsai]

You need to change out that Y-valve, its o-ring, and the o-ring inside the quick connect AOS vent tube on the right. Then check your crankcase vacuum reading to make sure your AOS is working properly too.

[Ahsai]

We want the first #6 and the first #7 in this diagram http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=996-99-05&section=104-10

 

Looks like the y-valve (#6) already comes with a new o-ring.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Ahsai

[Youri Ko]

Thanks Ashai! 

[Youri Ko]

So while I'm doing my VarioCam pads with the engine on the ground, I came with few more questions.

 

If some of you remember, I had some deviation reading, steady -6.2 and -3 but on cold engine, so not a solid reading, but still, I take it as reference.

After reading through Porsche Manual, I studied their procedure of "retiming" the camshaft sprocket. My initial idea was to simply put the sprocket back exactly where it was, but would it be a good idea to actually play with it, to get a better camshaft position?

What I'm trying to understand, is what exactly is camshaft deviation value? Crank to Exhaust cam ? - I reckon it can be adjusted via the sprocket. 
Or Crank to Intake Cam - thus, the whole varioCam rig comes into play, ramps, chain, teeth etc.

 

I worked on few engines in my life, mostly belt driven, and never seen anything that allows so much "adjustement" via the sprocket. Looks ingenous to me, no matter how stretched the chain gets, just rotate the sprocket back to align cam notch vertically, with crank at TDC and bingo?!

[JFP in PA]

_{Basically, cam deviation values represent how far off ideal the camshaft rotational position is in relation to the crankshaft rotational position.  In these engines, the actual cam timing position on a running engine is complicated by the use of multiple chains driving the system at half crankshaft rotational speed, which are held in tension by hydraulic tensioners, and the use of hydraulic operated variable cam timing systems (VarioCam, VarioCam +) which allow the cams to advance or retard themselves in relation to the crank position at different engine speeds.  As the result, the actual cam position may not always be ideal (zero degrees of deviation).  The factory sets the allowed deviation from ideal to be +/- 6 degrees, but the DME will not throw a related code until the cams get much further out of position.}

 

_{As a point worth noting, you should never run cam deviation values on an engine that is not completely warmed up (driven for about 20 min. prior to testing).  Cold engine tests can be very misleading.}

 

_{As you have the manual, you should also note that correctly reallocating the cams requires some special tooling to accomplish, and while time consuming, is not overly difficult.}

[Ahsai]

Cam timing is a precision procedure so you cannot just try to reinstall the sproket in the exact same old position. With new pads and/or chains the timing will change so you will definitely need the special tool 9612 to time it properly - the bottom left one in this set

http://www.ewktool.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=137

[Youri Ko]

Thanks JFP, always informative.

 

you should also note that correctly reallocating the cams requires some special tooling to accomplish

 

 

Indeed, I,ve read through forums and here is what I gathered as alternative to using those tools.

 

Crank at TDC, Lock exhaust camshaft with camlock tool. Prime tensionner with heavy oil and thread it in tight to tension the chain. Loosen four sprocket bolts. Rotate crank out of tdc by few degrees and back to tdc. Tigthen four sprockets bolts. 

 

How does that sound?

[Youri Ko]

Cam timing is a precision procedure so you cannot just try to reinstall the sproket in the exact same old position. With new pads and/or chains the timing will change so you will definitely need the special tool 9612 to time it properly - the bottom left one in this set

http://www.ewktool.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=137

 

Thanks Ashai, nice looking kit there.

 

In my case, only VarioCam pads get replaced. All the other components remain the same. So putting the sprocket back to where it was can not make things worse, IMO. The engine ran fine with the sprocket at that given location. New vario pads should only tighten things a little bit.

 

I still may try out the procedure I outlined in my previous post, will see how it goes.

[JFP in PA]

 

Cam timing is a precision procedure so you cannot just try to reinstall the sproket in the exact same old position. With new pads and/or chains the timing will change so you will definitely need the special tool 9612 to time it properly - the bottom left one in this set

http://www.ewktool.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=137

 

Thanks Ashai, nice looking kit there.

 

In my case, only VarioCam pads get replaced. All the other components remain the same. So putting the sprocket back to where it was can not make things worse, IMO. The engine ran fine with the sprocket at that given location. New vario pads should only tighten things a little bit.

 

I still may try out the procedure I outlined in my previous post, will see how it goes.

 

 

I agree with Ahsai on this one, cam timing is a precision sport; you simply cannot "eye ball" relative component positions and expect to be successful.  You need the correct tools and to use procedures, as being "almost" correct can get very expensive quickly.

[Youri Ko]

Not much eye balling there, crank is locked with a pin, and camshaft locking tool would be used as a "lever" to rotate the cam and set it's groove parralel to head surface. Simillar to what the P-Tool 9612 does but lets call it home brew version.

 

And btw. that timing kit Ashai mentioned does not include the 9599 Auxiliary chain tensioner. Tool required to pretension the IMS to Cam chain before setting the timing. Any input on using stock tensioner primed with heavy oil for that purpose?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Youri Ko

[gcp]

_{As a point worth noting, you should never run cam deviation values on an engine that is not completely warmed up (driven for about 20 min. prior to testing).  Cold engine tests can be very misleading.}

 

_{JFP, I wish you had mentioned this to me because my readings were on a cold engine, the car had not been driven in days! It's all beginning to make sense now.....probably had a stuck solenoid which I manually unstuck but my next step will be to change oil and check for yellow plastic pieces. If non are present I'll forget about the guides and concentrate on the solenoid for possible re-occurrence.}

 

_{I am proud of you for tackling the job Youri}

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by gcp

[JFP in PA]

_{As a point worth noting, you should never run cam deviation values on an engine that is not completely warmed up (driven for about 20 min. prior to testing).  Cold engine tests can be very misleading.}

 

_{JFP, I wish you had mentioned this to me because my readings were on a cold engine, the car had not been driven in days! It's all beginning to make sense now.....probably had a stuck solenoid which I manually unstuck but my next step will be to change oil and check for yellow plastic pieces. If non are present I'll forget about the guides and concentrate on the solenoid for possible re-occurrence.}

 

_{I am proud of you for tackling the job Youri}

 

 

A fully warmed engine has always been part of the correct procedure for running cam deviation values.  All of the control systems (chain tensioners, VarioCam units, etc.) in these engines are hydraulically operated which mandates a steady state temperature for both the oil and the components before the system is in its nominal running configuration.

[gcp]

For you it maybe common knowledge but for me it was not so, all I'm saying is, mentioning such a critical detail would have served a valuable purpose and saved some heartache! Thank goodness I didn't tear into the engine yet for no real reason, another public thank you to Ahsai for stepping in!

Edited March 24, 2016 by gcp

[JFP in PA]

For you it maybe common knowledge but for me it was not so, all I'm saying is, mentioning such a critical detail would have served a valuable purpose and saved some heartache! Thank goodness I didn't tear into the engine yet for no real reason, another public thank you to Ahsai for stepping in!

 

It is not a matter of being common knowledge, it is the factory's procedure for checking cam deviation values on this particular engine.

[gcp]

If I had possession of the factory procedure, and was a trained mechanic I wouldn't be asking questions on this forum but rather offer succinct, timely advice.

 

But we are not here to argue, we are here to help one another so JFP, I thank you for your advice!

[Ahsai]

gcp, John is one of our top contributors with all the knowledge we need to fix our cars. He always helps others and if you look back at your thread, he wrote post after post explaining the variocam trying to help.