'04 Tiptronic Not Redlining Since Service

[ttocs]

Hi All.

 

Bought my Boxster with 30,000 miles on it in August, had a few things serviced in October including LN IMS Retrofit bearing, AOS, NGK BKR6EK plugs, and a trans fluid and filter change. Prior to service it would shift at 7200 rpm, but now it shifts at about 6800 (edit: should read 6600, not 6800) in first, and 7000 in second and third. The new fluid used is G-052-162-A2. The shifts are not as quite as quick as they were, but this being my first Tip I don't know which way it's supposed to be.

 

I'm wondering if it could be one of the following:

 

1. Wrong fluid

2. Underfilled

3. Overfilled (yes, I know, but still . . . )

4. Could something not be fully connected when trans was reinstalled?

 

I've searched and searched on rpm and shift points and haven't seen anything resembling a "a-ha" moment. I welcome your expert thoughts on this.

 

Thanks,

Scott

 

ps - I currently have, and have had other cars that are quicker/faster, but this Boxster is far and away the happiest car to drive!

Edited February 28, 2016 by ttocs

[JFP in PA]

That product is listed as being for a VW with a Tip transmission, so it would seem reasonable it should work, although the factory fluid is usually either a Pentosin or ZF product rather than the Febi product they used.

 

As for correct fill levels, you need to ask whomever did it to explain how they checked it as there is a specific procedure that entails running the trans through the gears while getting it up to a prescribed temperature.

[crwarren11]

These ZF transmissions are pretty sensitive so it could be the change in fluid or just the level.  Other than flushing, I would only use the Pentosin or ZF ATF.  It's just not worth the risk using cheap stuff.  But before you go draining and refilling again, I'd try this:

 

Just looking at some of the other work you had performed, reset the adaptation by unplugging the battery for a while...not sure what the minimum time is but I will usually just do it overnight.  After reconnecting you will notice on your first drive and a few more after that, that things are re-adapting.  Idle will usually fluctuate quite a bit and you might have a few rough shifts as the ECU is getting everything back in sync.

[ttocs]

As for correct fill levels, you need to ask whomever did it to explain how they checked it as there is a specific procedure that entails running the trans through the gears while getting it up to a prescribed temperature.

The indy came highly recommended by other Boxster owners, and seems to me to be operating genuinely in the best interest of the car. They went over the complete refilling operation with me and they say they did all the correct steps for proper fill - correct temperature, shift the gears, fill again, etc. I only question because I didn't see it with my own eyes so I'm including this in my list of "could it be this?".

[JFP in PA]

 

As for correct fill levels, you need to ask whomever did it to explain how they checked it as there is a specific procedure that entails running the trans through the gears while getting it up to a prescribed temperature.

The indy came highly recommended by other Boxster owners, and seems to me to be operating genuinely in the best interest of the car. They went over the complete refilling operation with me and they say they did all the correct steps for proper fill - correct temperature, shift the gears, fill again, etc. I only question because I didn't see it with my own eyes so I'm including this in my list of "could it be this?".

 

 

Well, not to slight your shop in anyway, but one of the most common problems with the Tip is both fluid choices and filling procedures; more often than not, we find recently serviced Tips with problems are not filled correctly, or have the wrong fluid in them.  Because the filling and testing procedures take time, a lot of shops seem to try and short cut them to save money.

[ttocs]

These ZF transmissions are pretty sensitive so it could be the change in fluid or just the level.  Other than flushing, I would only use the Pentosin or ZF ATF.  It's just not worth the risk using cheap stuff.  But before you go draining and refilling again, I'd try this:

 

Just looking at some of the other work you had performed, reset the adaptation by unplugging the battery for a while...not sure what the minimum time is but I will usually just do it overnight.  After reconnecting you will notice on your first drive and a few more after that, that things are re-adapting.  Idle will usually fluctuate quite a bit and you might have a few rough shifts as the ECU is getting everything back in sync.

Well your recommendation is certainly easy and non-invasive enough to try! I'll give it a go.

 

If the issue persists my next thought is to "drain and fill and run the car" a couple times to "flush" the fluid using Pentosin or ZF. If I would've known better at the time I would have insisted on using the Porsche recommended fluid - cost of the fluid is not a consideration to me on this service - I was simply ignorant of the facts.

[ttocs]

 

 

As for correct fill levels, you need to ask whomever did it to explain how they checked it as there is a specific procedure that entails running the trans through the gears while getting it up to a prescribed temperature.

The indy came highly recommended by other Boxster owners, and seems to me to be operating genuinely in the best interest of the car. They went over the complete refilling operation with me and they say they did all the correct steps for proper fill - correct temperature, shift the gears, fill again, etc. I only question because I didn't see it with my own eyes so I'm including this in my list of "could it be this?".

 

 

Well, not to slight your shop in anyway, but one of the most common problems with the Tip is both fluid choices and filling procedures; more often than not, we find recently serviced Tips with problems are not filled correctly, or have the wrong fluid in them.  Because the filling and testing procedures take time, a lot of shops seem to try and short cut them to save money.

 

Point taken. I'm not invested in defending nor persecuting this shop because, so far, I have no evidence of malfeasance.

 

Fluid level is something I am very interested in checking, so I'm gearing myself up for being able to do so the weekend after this. I've read up on good ways to place the car on jack stands so I'm pretty clear on that. What I'm not sure about is which fluid I should get. Is the factory fill a ZF or Pentosin? because I'd like to use what was in the tranny from new because it did its job so well.

[JFP in PA]

 

 

 

As for correct fill levels, you need to ask whomever did it to explain how they checked it as there is a specific procedure that entails running the trans through the gears while getting it up to a prescribed temperature.

The indy came highly recommended by other Boxster owners, and seems to me to be operating genuinely in the best interest of the car. They went over the complete refilling operation with me and they say they did all the correct steps for proper fill - correct temperature, shift the gears, fill again, etc. I only question because I didn't see it with my own eyes so I'm including this in my list of "could it be this?".

 

 

Well, not to slight your shop in anyway, but one of the most common problems with the Tip is both fluid choices and filling procedures; more often than not, we find recently serviced Tips with problems are not filled correctly, or have the wrong fluid in them.  Because the filling and testing procedures take time, a lot of shops seem to try and short cut them to save money.

 

Point taken. I'm not invested in defending nor persecuting this shop because, so far, I have no evidence of malfeasance.

 

Fluid level is something I am very interested in checking, so I'm gearing myself up for being able to do so the weekend after this. I've read up on good ways to place the car on jack stands so I'm pretty clear on that. What I'm not sure about is which fluid I should get. Is the factory fill a ZF or Pentosin? because I'd like to use what was in the tranny from new because it did its job so well.

 

 

Look at it this way:  ZF makes transmissions, not fluids, so they are buying it from someone (most likely Pentosin) and relabeling it with their name.

[ttocs]

Thank you crwarren11 and JFP in PA for your help on this.

[ttocs]

 

These ZF transmissions are pretty sensitive so it could be the change in fluid or just the level.  Other than flushing, I would only use the Pentosin or ZF ATF.  It's just not worth the risk using cheap stuff.  But before you go draining and refilling again, I'd try this:

 

Just looking at some of the other work you had performed, reset the adaptation by unplugging the battery for a while...not sure what the minimum time is but I will usually just do it overnight.  After reconnecting you will notice on your first drive and a few more after that, that things are re-adapting.  Idle will usually fluctuate quite a bit and you might have a few rough shifts as the ECU is getting everything back in sync.

Well your recommendation is certainly easy and non-invasive enough to try! I'll give it a go.

 

If the issue persists my next thought is to "drain and fill and run the car" a couple times to "flush" the fluid using Pentosin or ZF. If I would've known better at the time I would have insisted on using the Porsche recommended fluid - cost of the fluid is not a consideration to me on this service - I was simply ignorant of the facts.

 

Ok, I disconnected the battery, reconnected it about 1-1/2 hours later. Reset the throttle position by turning the key to the ON position, no start, waited a minute and turned to OFF, waited 10 seconds, started car. The engine was only slightly rough initially, then settled a bit. After the car warmed up for a while, I drove off.

 

In Drive mode I could feel the system trying to figure out things like what to do on a half throttle kick, starting with 3/4 and full throttle from a stop, etc. The first time I floored it while going about 25mph it downshifted - then paused . . . for several seconds . . . then realized I really wanted full acceleration and downshifted again to first and zoomed away. That only happened the one time. I drove the car then parked it several times today, but the only drive I experienced things changing was the first drive. FWIW I usually drive in Manual mode, I used Drive mode just to see what would happen.

 

Engine performance was what I'm used to within minutes of initially driving out of my driveway. The only learning I noticed was the throttle position stuff.

 

At full throttle the tiptronic shifts from 1st to 2nd at 6600 rpm, consistently, and from 2nd to 3rd at 7000 rpm, I checked this in both D and M. So no change from before battery disconnect to after reconnect and throttle reset. So the next step is to check the trans fluid level next weekend.

 

I've ordered a Enthusiast kit from Durametric which should arrive mid week. I didn't order it to solve this issue but if what it can show is all else is normal, that would be interesting to me. Can the Durametric show anything about the tiptronic?

Edited February 14, 2016 by ttocs

[ttocs]

 

 

 

Look at it this way:  ZF makes transmissions, not fluids, so they are buying it from someone (most likely Pentosin) and relabeling it with their name.

 

I'll pickup some Pentosin this week. Next weekend I'm gonna check the fluid level and proceed based on what that shows.

[crwarren11]

Durametric will show fault codes for the tiptronic.

[ttocs]

Ok, I'm confused.

 

My Indy said they used G052162A2 fluid when they serviced my tip. I confirmed with my local Porsche dealer that this is the Audi/Volkswagen part number that should be used in my car, 2004 Boxster base. Porsche also told me to buy it from Audi (their sister dealership next door), and that this is what they would use for servicing my car if I had them do it. 

 

Pentosin's ATF1 data sheet says that G052162A2 is the VW/Audi OE number. This fluid is listed as being Amber & Clear in color. I purchased Pentosin ATF1 in a 5 liter container.

 

Here's my concern:

I was all set to check the fluid level and top off if needed. When I opened the fill plug, the fluid that came out is Red & Clear! The Pentosin ATF1 I bought is Amber & Clear (as is G052162A2) as expected. Now what do I do?? I'm concerned with mixing the amber with the red.

 

Questions:

Is the factory fluid red? or amber?

 

If amber, then maybe someone had done a trans service and used an incorrect fluid ?? Or my indy lied.

edit: I just checked Pentosin site and found that they make at least two different ATF1 fluids. One is ATF1 and is Amber & Clear, the other is "ATF1 LV" and is "Red & Clear" and is only for Mercedes, and is a lower viscosity. So maybe my indy's mechanic used Pentosin labeled container and chose the wrong version of ATF1 (instead of using the VW/Audi labeled) ???

 

Should I go through a process of exchanging the fluid - drain/fill, run, drain/fill, run, drain/fill, done - to get the fluid to a mostly known condition? If yes, should the filter be changed? It only has 1500 miles on it.

 

Thanks in advance,

Scott

Edited February 23, 2016 by ttocs

[crwarren11]

Factory fluid and the ZF fluids for your trans are amber just like the pentosin atf 1. I have used cheap atf for flushes...and it was red. So I would say your findings may indicate that the wrong atf was used, the other pentosin product you mentioned sounds likely. The spec I used for equivalence is LT71141, which came from the ZF service manual. The filter doesn't need to be changed but if you're going to do a fill and flush several times then you could change it on your last go around. It's cheap. One thing I did was keep a sample of the drained atf in a clear milk jug for a week or so. After a few days it would separate clearly into the different atf's by color then I could tell how much of each was left in the system and if I was improving it after each flush. You could also go back to your shop and insist that they do all of this work for you and use the right fluid!

[ttocs]

Thank you crwarren11 for your response.

 

I bought the Boxster last August with less than 30,000 miles on it and my assumption has been that the trans had never been serviced, so my gut tells me that the red fluid is new. I'm going to quiz the mechanic about this, but I want to switch out the fluid myself so I know what's been done.

 

Also, I like your idea to let the fluids separate in clear containers! Very good idea! Simple too.

[crwarren11]

I agree, it is very unlikely that someone would have done any transmission service on it with under 30k miles.  Porsche first mentions servicing the trans fluid/filter at 90k miles.  So, yes, likely the red is the new fluid they used.  The other thing is that a trans fluid/filter service will only remove about half of the total atf in the system (the other half is in the torque converter), so you should still have half of the original left in there.  If you flush again you would theoretically have about 25% red fluid left and 75% mix of new pentosin and original fluid.  So, it is a process, which is why you might consider having the indy shop take care of it for you.  It is also a messy job, draining fluid, pumping in new fluid until it spills out at the correct temperature range, etc.  Not difficult, but tedious. 

 

Have you checked to see if the trans cover plate has a service hole in it to access the drain?  I think your year has this, but not 100% sure.  Mine did not so I used a hole saw to give me access to the drain/fill hole so I didn't have to take off the diagonal supports and cover plate every time.

 

All that said, you could do all of this and still end up with your shifting at 6800.  But if you're up for the experiment then it would be interesting to see what happens!

[ttocs]

Have you checked to see if the trans cover plate has a service hole in it to access the drain?  I think your year has this, but not 100% sure.  Mine did not so I used a hole saw to give me access to the drain/fill hole so I didn't have to take off the diagonal supports and cover plate every time.

Mine does not currently have a service hole to access the drain, only for the fill. But I will follow your example and cut a hole for drain access.

 

All that said, you could do all of this and still end up with your shifting at 6800.  But if you're up for the experiment then it would be interesting to see what happens!

The exact shift point reported by Durametric is consistently about 6670, plus or minus, in first gear only. In second it shifts at 7050. I don't have any corroboration on it shifting at redline prior to service other than my memory. It may not have happened exactly at redline, but it was at least mighty close in both first and second. 

 

I still wonder if there is any form of shift point programming that might have been lost by doing the service. (I'm getting ahead of a detached diagnosis by thinking this, but . . . like the Beatles said "I can't stop my brain"). My gut tells me a lot of things, sometimes I listen, and this time it's saying circumstantial evidence points to - wrong fluid leading to improper operation.

[crwarren11]

Haha, yes I understand!  So I tested my own 2000 Tiptronic today and for me this is how it operates in manual mode:

1st gear, pedal to the floor:  consistently shifts at ~6500 (visual, I didn't have it hooked up to Durametric)

2nd gear, pedal still to the floor:  consistent goes all the way to redline ~7100

 

So...maybe your shifting in 1st gear has always been at 6670?

 

The harder or slower shifts compared to pre-service could be indicative of the fluid used.  I've never seen anything about where these are programmed to shift, but I will poke around.

[ttocs]

I chickened out on drilling an inspection hole under the drain plug for now, maybe before I reinstall the trans shield. For tonight I just put the car on my new, great! Liftbars, and dropped the trans shield. Tomorrow or Thursday night I'll drain and fill.

 

Re the shift point in first, it was definitely above 7000 rpm. Another theory could be that the old fluid was 11 years old and could have changed the shift point from lower to higher - assuming Porsche designed it to shift at a lower rpm and that the shift point could change with aging fluid. In the manual it shows a rpm to speed graph and the lines all follow all the way to 7200 rpm. It's not proof, but to me it would support an argument for shifting at redline. All I know for sure is that I don't know.

[ttocs]

Today I drained and filled the Tiptronic with Pentosin ATF1. I used a little under 5 liters which includes the small amount that dribbled out during the process. I have not measured how much was drained out yet. I installed the fill plug when the temperature on the pan measured between 85f to 95f depending on where I pointed the laser. I think Durametric is supposed to be able to give a temp reading, but so far I haven't found it.

 

Differences:

Previously the highest rpm in first gear I measured was 6679 rpm, using Durametric. Now the highest is 6812 rpm. That's a difference of 133 rpm. I'll test more this weekend.

 

Shifts seem more firm. Could be mental, not sure yet.

 

While at a stop, in 2nd gear, shifting into 1st used to be a hard "thump". Now it's a barely noticeable soft bump, very slight bump, if I wasn't looking for it I wouldn't even notice.

 

While traveling about 10mph in 2nd gear, shifting into 1st was a no no! It was harsh and the car would lurch. Now it's smooth and it "just happens" with no complaint. (I've only done this to see what would happen, I've only ever done this a few times.)

 

When starting in a normal manner from a stop, in 2nd gear, when the torque converter locked up I would hear a mid frequency squeak. Now I don't hear it! This weekend I'll remove the carpet on the engine cover to elicit a bit more volume from the engine/trans.

 

Without yet knowing the difference in fluid level (which I hope to figure out this weekend) I can't be sure these differences are due to incorrect fluid and incorrect level, or just incorrect fluid.

 

I'm going to do at least one more drain and fill in another week or so.

 

A friend with a 2003 tip reported that his shifts at about 6600 rpm (visual) in 1st. I'd be very interested in more reports of what rpm 1st gear shifts at in other peoples' 986 tiptronics.

[JFP in PA]

Durametric does not report the fluid temps on a Tip, you need to either use a non contact pyrometer or a meter with a probe to get an accurate reading.

[ttocs]

Durametric does not report the fluid temps on a Tip, you need to either use a non contact pyrometer or a meter with a probe to get an accurate reading.

Good to know. Thanks for confirming.

[crwarren11]

It sounds like things are improving!  That's great news!  Hopefully it's not just mental...I know that trick too...

[ttocs]

Through exhaustive searching everywhere, I've gleaned some info on the operation Tiptronic transmissions. Unfortunately, not much is iron clad information because Porsche doesn't let much out so there's a lot of reading between the lines. For example, in a press release for the 2005 911 S Porsche stated:

 

"Instead of making the first-second shift at 6900 rpm under full power acceleration, Tiptronic S now holds first gear until the engine achieves 7200 rpm."

 

Making a small leap, this tells me that the Tip in my car should shift at 6900, and not higher - but it was shifting at a higher rpm and I've got the DME info showing 2581 Range 1 ingnitions. I don't know if the previous owner programmed it to do it, or if the 12 year old fluid was allowing it to happen, or because the engine wasn't running as well as it is now was affecting the data the Tip uses to determine when to shift. Either way, I now know that 6900 is the target so now it looks like my Tip isn't so far off from being "normal".

　

I spoke to my mechanic, and the outcome of the conversation is that he spec'd the VW fluid, but his supplier gives him something that "meets that spec" but is NOT the VW fluid. So that's why the fluid is red and not amber. I don't understand why, with all of the info out there that these transmissions are soooo touchy, why someone would not use the fluid that's supposed to be used! When I dropped off the car I requested that "the proper fluid be used" and I was expecting to pay the Porsche pricing for it. He did say that he would do whatever it took to exchange the fluid, but I want to do it myself so I know exactly what is going on.

　

I'm going to put some miles on the fluid in there now and drain/fill a couple more times. So far I've done this twice, and the Tip has responded well. The upshifts are more solid and firmer, it holds first gear to a higher rpm, the downshifts in D initiate at a higher rpm and - again - more solid, and I can actually shift into first with no complaint when I make a sharp turn at this one intersection I go through often!

　

Now I just need to get informed on something I posted in the Durametric section re "Total Distance" that doesn't seem to match my odometer . . .

[JFP in PA]

Is the difference between your odometer and the "Total Distance" read around 5% or so?  Or does the car's service records indicate that the dash cluster has been worked on?