Metal bits..

[911 dreamer]

Just found these in the oil filter of my 1998 996 with 92k on the clock. They are ferrous, any ideas?

[JFP in PA]

Just found these in the oil filter of my 1998 996 with 92k on the clock. They are ferrous, any ideas?

 

There are a lot of iron and steel components in these engines; valve springs, cams, crank, etc.  It could be from any of them.  I would plan on shortening your oil change cycles to monitor this,  and running oil  with as high ZDDP level as you can find.

[911 dreamer]

Thanks again JFP for your knowledge and reply. Another user who discovered something similar was told it could be the iron plating from the pistons, 2 years later his is still going strong

. The indie who pointed it out to me used Mobil 1,0-40w, is that any good?

[911 dreamer]

Also, this car has never done more than 6k miles between oil & filter changes, but I plan to reduce this now to around 2k to 3k.

[JFP in PA]

Thanks again JFP for your knowledge and reply. Another user who discovered something similar was told it could be the iron plating from the pistons, 2 years later his is still going strong

. The indie who pointed it out to me used Mobil 1,0-40w, is that any good?

 

I wouldn't use that oil.  Look instead at Joe Gibbs DT 40, a very high ZDDP 5W-40 oil and plan on 3-4K between changes..

[911 dreamer]

Many thanks JFP. As they are relatively cheap, would you recommend a magnetic plug too, anything else?

[JFP in PA]

Many thanks JFP. As they are relatively cheap, would you recommend a magnetic plug too, anything else?

 

We have a lot of customers running the magnetic plug, which is a good idea.  I also like the spin on filter (100% filtration) and a FilterMag as well.

[911 dreamer]

 

Many thanks JFP. As they are relatively cheap, would you recommend a magnetic plug too, anything else?

 

We have a lot of customers running the magnetic plug, which is a good idea.  I also like the spin on filter (100% filtration) and a FilterMag as well.

 

Does anyone know where best to buy the magnetic plug and filter, in the UK please?

[Silver_TT]

LN Engineering.  I would contact them to see if they have distribution in the UK, else they may just ship it to you there (I send stuff to London all the time and it's not expensive if it doesn't weigh much).

Edited August 28, 2015 by Silver_TT

[JFP in PA]

Amazon.com carries some of the LN Engineering parts, so that might be a good starting point.  I would also "Google" your location, you may find someone nearby as well.

[JasonStern]

Worth noting:

 

• If you switch to a magnetic drain plug, the torque specs will be different. Make sure to remember that to avoid having the magnetic oil plug fracture due to being overtorqued following a "by the book" oil change.
   
• Blackstone Labs provides an engine oil analysis that helps indicating what metals are present, which helps identify what metals are wearing at what rate. Given the M96's history, I personally feel that it is worth the investment - especially if you are already finding metal flakes in the oil filter.

[911 dreamer]

I have now put a magnetic drain plug in and placed filter magnets around the filter. I haven't changed the oil yet because it's only done a few miles but I have the oil ready that JFP recommends.

 

However, whilst the car runs very quietly when warmed up, there is an increasing amount of noise/rattle on start up, if only for a few seconds. This is worrying, and even more so since I cut open the old filter to reveal more ferrous metal, more slithers and quite a lot of granular - see pic.

 

On this basis I have taken the decision not to drive/start the engine and to book it in with a recommended local specialist, Autostrasse in Coggeshall, Essex to have the IMS upgraded to the LN version.

 

JFP, or anyone else knowledgeable, do you think this has gone too far or have I caught it in time to get away with just replacing the bearing?

 

Many thanks. 

[911 dreamer]

Sorry, here's the picture of the filter..

[911 dreamer]

Maybe a silly question but before the IMS is remove, would it be worth running for a few mins with one of the engine flush additives before draining the oil?

[JFP in PA]

I have now put a magnetic drain plug in and placed filter magnets around the filter. I haven't changed the oil yet because it's only done a few miles but I have the oil ready that JFP recommends.

 

However, whilst the car runs very quietly when warmed up, there is an increasing amount of noise/rattle on start up, if only for a few seconds. This is worrying, and even more so since I cut open the old filter to reveal more ferrous metal, more slithers and quite a lot of granular - see pic.

 

On this basis I have taken the decision not to drive/start the engine and to book it in with a recommended local specialist, Autostrasse in Coggeshall, Essex to have the IMS upgraded to the LN version.

 

JFP, or anyone else knowledgeable, do you think this has gone too far or have I caught it in time to get away with just replacing the bearing?

 

Many thanks. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, there can be several sources for ferrous debris, not just the IMS bearing.  Start up noise in these engine's is also common and can be the result of wear on the chain tensioner paddles, the chain tensioners them selves, and the lifters.

 

Prior to doing an IMS change, your tech should pull the sump cover for inspection.  If there is a substantial amount of ferrous grit in the sump, corrective measures are going to be required before doing the IMS swap, or the circulating grit will harm the new IMS which is lubricated by the engine oil.  If the sump contents are nominal, the IMS retrofit can proceed.  If you have not already done so, I would also add the LN spin on filter adaptor as well for better oil filtration going forward.

 

We do not advocate the use of oil additive's or detergents; you should be running a full synthetic which should do everything necessary to keep the engine cleaned out.

[911 dreamer]

 

I have now put a magnetic drain plug in and placed filter magnets around the filter. I haven't changed the oil yet because it's only done a few miles but I have the oil ready that JFP recommends.

 

However, whilst the car runs very quietly when warmed up, there is an increasing amount of noise/rattle on start up, if only for a few seconds. This is worrying, and even more so since I cut open the old filter to reveal more ferrous metal, more slithers and quite a lot of granular - see pic.

 

On this basis I have taken the decision not to drive/start the engine and to book it in with a recommended local specialist, Autostrasse in Coggeshall, Essex to have the IMS upgraded to the LN version.

 

JFP, or anyone else knowledgeable, do you think this has gone too far or have I caught it in time to get away with just replacing the bearing?

 

Many thanks. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, there can be several sources for ferrous debris, not just the IMS bearing.  Start up noise in these engine's is also common and can be the result of wear on the chain tensioner paddles, the chain tensioners them selves, and the lifters.

 

Prior to doing an IMS change, your tech should pull the sump cover for inspection.  If there is a substantial amount of ferrous grit in the sump, corrective measures are going to be required before doing the IMS swap, or the circulating grit will harm the new IMS which is lubricated by the engine oil.  If the sump contents are nominal, the IMS retrofit can proceed.  If you have not already done so, I would also add the LN spin on filter adaptor as well for better oil filtration going forward.

 

We do not advocate the use of oil additive's or detergents; you should be running a full synthetic which should do everything necessary to keep the engine cleaned out.

 

Many thanks JFP, I haven't got that filter yet, are you able to confirm the part I need please, is it this one?

 

http://lnengineering.com/oil-change-bundle-configurable.html

[JFP in PA]

 

 

I have now put a magnetic drain plug in and placed filter magnets around the filter. I haven't changed the oil yet because it's only done a few miles but I have the oil ready that JFP recommends.

 

However, whilst the car runs very quietly when warmed up, there is an increasing amount of noise/rattle on start up, if only for a few seconds. This is worrying, and even more so since I cut open the old filter to reveal more ferrous metal, more slithers and quite a lot of granular - see pic.

 

On this basis I have taken the decision not to drive/start the engine and to book it in with a recommended local specialist, Autostrasse in Coggeshall, Essex to have the IMS upgraded to the LN version.

 

JFP, or anyone else knowledgeable, do you think this has gone too far or have I caught it in time to get away with just replacing the bearing?

 

Many thanks. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, there can be several sources for ferrous debris, not just the IMS bearing.  Start up noise in these engine's is also common and can be the result of wear on the chain tensioner paddles, the chain tensioners them selves, and the lifters.

 

Prior to doing an IMS change, your tech should pull the sump cover for inspection.  If there is a substantial amount of ferrous grit in the sump, corrective measures are going to be required before doing the IMS swap, or the circulating grit will harm the new IMS which is lubricated by the engine oil.  If the sump contents are nominal, the IMS retrofit can proceed.  If you have not already done so, I would also add the LN spin on filter adaptor as well for better oil filtration going forward.

 

We do not advocate the use of oil additive's or detergents; you should be running a full synthetic which should do everything necessary to keep the engine cleaned out.

 

Many thanks JFP, I haven't got that filter yet, are you able to confirm the part I need please, is it this one?

 

http://lnengineering.com/oil-change-bundle-configurable.html

 

 

That is the one.

[911 dreamer]

Many thanks,

[Ahsai]

On this basis I have taken the decision not to drive/start the engine and to book it in with a recommended local specialist, Autostrasse in Coggeshall, Essex to have the IMS upgraded to the LN version.

 

You're a wise man.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Ahsai

[911 dreamer]

Sorry to keep asking questions but it's not going in for another 2-3 weeks. If once removed the pan doesn't reveal loads more granular metal and it turns out not to be the ims, obviously I'll do the ims anyway but won't there still be a requirement for a strip down? The particles have come from somewhere, or are they more dangerous from the ims than anywhere else? Just trying to preempt what I might have to sell to get this sorted!

[JFP in PA]

Sorry to keep asking questions but it's not going in for another 2-3 weeks. If once removed the pan doesn't reveal loads more granular metal and it turns out not to be the ims, obviously I'll do the ims anyway but won't there still be a requirement for a strip down? The particles have come from somewhere, or are they more dangerous from the ims than anywhere else? Just trying to preempt what I might have to sell to get this sorted!

 

Not really, all these engine's generate some metallic debris, and not always at a constant rate.  That is why the use of a high quality oil and full flow oil filtration is so important.  The major point at this juncture is that you need to be sure there isn't a substantial amount of ferrous grit in the sump, which would negate the installation of the new IMS until after the engine is torn down to find out what is coming apart.  If the sump is clean, you can install the new IMS and you are ready to go.

[Ahsai]

Hi John, just wondering if you have any opinion or excpeience with this sealed bearing? http://www.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/-/-/-/item/item_details/VID_45438-VCD_59644405-gid_281-sort_4-display_50-item_FVD10590104/Spare_Parts_-_Clutch_-_Cluch_Kit_FVD10590104_Intermediate_Shaft_IMS_Repair_Kit_%60M96.Dual_Row%60.html

If the engine has significant debris, would fitting a sealed bearing a better choice and maybe switch to an open bearing at the next clutch change after no more debris are found?

[911 dreamer]

Thank you both for your time and knowledge - hugely appreciated.

Ahsai, a sealed bearing makes a lot of sense, interested to hear John's thoughts. Tempted to drain the oil and check the pan myself before it goes anywhere!

[Ahsai]

Thank you both for your time and knowledge - hugely appreciated.

Ahsai, a sealed bearing makes a lot of sense, interested to hear John's thoughts. Tempted to drain the oil and check the pan myself before it goes anywhere!

Anytime.

I think it's a great idea to drop the pan and check yourself first and maybe post some good pics of the debris. Check out Jake Raby's video on oil pan reseal and just make sure you don't use excessive sealant.

Unless you open up the engine to clean out all the debris ($$), they may lurk somewhere and attack at a later time. I have no experience of the sealed bearing but it seems to be much more forgiving to debris. It's also a dual row, which offers good load capacity like your stock one.

[JFP in PA]

Hi John, just wondering if you have any opinion or excpeience with this sealed bearing? http://www.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/-/-/-/item/item_details/VID_45438-VCD_59644405-gid_281-sort_4-display_50-item_FVD10590104/Spare_Parts_-_Clutch_-_Cluch_Kit_FVD10590104_Intermediate_Shaft_IMS_Repair_Kit_%60M96.Dual_Row%60.html

If the engine has significant debris, would fitting a sealed bearing a better choice and maybe switch to an open bearing at the next clutch change after no more debris are found?

 

That bearing is a cheaper alternative type bearing, not unlike what Pelican offered as a cheap substitute for the LN hybrid ceramic bearings.  In essence, it is nothing more that a new OEM type bearing.

 

Getting the debris and its source out of the engine is key to any path forward.  The problem with the grit is not just the IMS bearing, it is every bearing surface in the engine.  Full flow filtration, quality oil, shorten oil change cycles, and magnetism would be the best approach short of tearing the engine down.