Porsche 911 (996) performance?

[stutzchris]

Thank you for the comments.   I enjoy my 996 C4 now.  It is plenty fast for me 0-100 km/hr by the end of second gear when driving with spirit.  It handles great and is a joy to drive.  I do not at this time anticipate tracking the car other than DE sessions.  The reality for me is driving like I am racing (when the rest of the drivers on the road are unaware a race is going on) gets a little nuts.( I don't do it)  I have had the pleasure of taking my C4 to a high speed and the world changes (in a safe environment) ... things happen quicker and objects come up on you pretty darn fast.  I am not sure without training I could ever drive the 996 safely to its limits at this point.  I am a pretty good driver I some racing background on bikes so I know lines and apexes but I understand my limitations as well. 

 

I think I will take JFP's advice and spend some money on DE and enjoy a weekend or two learning what I don't know when driving.  Focus $$$ on preemptive maintenance and car of my car. 

 

Thanks for this discussion. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by stutzchris

[judgejon]

Thank you for the comments.   I enjoy my 996 C4 now.  It is plenty fast for me 0-100 km/hr by the end of second gear when driving with spirit.  It handles great and is a joy to drive.  I do not at this time anticipate tracking the car other than DE sessions.  The reality for me is driving like I am racihosng (when the rest of the drivers on the road are unaware a race is going on) gets a little nuts.  I have had the pleasure of taking my C4 to a high speed and the world changes (in a safe environment) ... things happen quicker and objects come up on you pretty darn fast.  I am not sure without training I could ever drive the 996 safely to its limits at this point.  I am a pretty good driver I some racing background on bikes so I know lines and apexes but I understand my limitations as well. 

 

I think I will take JFP's advice and spend some money on DE and enjoy a weekend or two learning what I don't know when driving.  Focus $$$ on preemptive maintenance and car of my car. 

 

Thanks for this discussion. 

Stutz, 

yours is a great comment.  

For those of us with real track experience, mine is most recently driving a race car on the track at the Daytona International Speedway, driving in traffic with lots of amateur "ricky racers" trying to get ahead at each stoplight, or lane jumping to gain a few yards on other drivers, is a bit nerve-wracking at times.  But then so is driving a C4S on a nice mountain road behind a camper towing a trailer, or a semi going up a hill.  The best approach is to approach these situations with patience.

But we all must admit that it is sometimes fun to take the curves on any open road in front of us as we would the curves and apex points on a road or autocross course, all the while, of course, staying in our lane, within the speed limits, and not going over the center line or fog line.  I think as Porsche drivers we've all played this game.

And beefing up our cars can be fun too.  So can auto-crossing those grand 911SC's.  Depends on our desires and points of view.  I just enjoy my C4S every day as if it was brand new right-out-of-the-box.  (With the LNE fix thrown in as a given.)

I totally agree with you and JFP.  Good points made.  And as my spouse has been known to say, "let's have fun."  

[AWDGuy]

As far as the custom tune, that bit isn't just about power. It's also about making sure your motor isn't running on the lean side with your new bolt-ons so you don't burn a piston. It's about making sure that the power that you do have is nice, linear and without flat spots. And yes, it's also about maximizing the output from the said bolt-ons and getting every hp you can...

Long before you would burn a piston, the car would code, even with the stock DME flash. And to go back to what Loren already stated, "on a normally aspirated 996 you can spend several thousand dollars and maybe get to an additional 30 HP", and that would be on a ten-tenths prepped car. We have had customers literally go the full boat (headers, sport cats, exhaust, intake mods, and even multiple DME re-flashes) and barely get that level of increase on these normally aspirated cars on a good dyno. We have also had owners try multiple brands of component's (headers, exhaust systems, re-flashes, etc.) end up with more spare parts than I have in my shop and a wallet that is easier to sit on, but not much more of an improvement, which was also completely born out in track lap times. It is not easy to get a ton more performance out of these cars, and quite plainly many owner's end up wondering if the view was really worth the climb.

For 996 NA cars - as I'm sure you'd know - tuning is more about the driveability, throttle response, air/fuel ratios...about maximizing the gains from the headers and cats you just added to the car. Then again, feel free to nitpick and focus on certain points of my response to benefit the lesser-informed. Or if you simply wish to discredit my suggestion.

The mods I suggested can be done for under $1500, if one has decent DIY skills. Headers, 200-cell cats welded in place of the OEM ones, a $720 tune such as this. Relatively affordable for the Porsche-owning high-rollers, right?

Again, remember the OP's question. While at no point did I mention anything about "a ton more performance," my response simply offered the biggest bang-for-buck suggestion. Power-wise, it's where NA 996s get the most noticeable gains for the least outlay. No more, no less.

Do you have before and after dynos showing the gains of these mods? Edited December 15, 2014 by AWDGuy

[996.solo2]

No, never got the 996 dyno'd. But you do feel the difference, for sure. No placebo effect. Power-wise, I think the OEM cat is the biggest bottleneck for the stock car...

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing the importance of actually learning to drive these cars as opposed to modifying them. Many moons ago, I was once an instructor for Bill Scott Racing, done DEs here and in Europe, held racing licenses with two different organizations and had my share of motorsports competition.

 

But the OP was asking about Porsche 996 performance modifications...

[Rob357]

JudgeJon:

 

 

For those of us with real track experience, mine is most recently driving a race car on the track at the Daytona International Speedway,

 

Let me know the next time you will be at Daytona, I work for ISC and i bring my 996 out there all the time.

 

Between the 996 and other vehicles I probably have 2000 laps if not more on the track.

 

 

Rob

Edited December 18, 2014 by Rob357

[judgejon]

Thanks, Rob.  Will do for sure.

Daytona is a little different than an auto-cross, considering the HP and set-up of my Richard Petty Team Dodge.

That high wall can be a little scary for sure.

Good thoughts.  jl

(pm coming)

[RJHerrmann]

Going against the grain of so many that appear to be 'in the know', I added several bolt-on 'performance' parts this past summer to my 996. I never had a dyno baseline nor a dyno after the addition but I can tell you without a question, the car performs and behaves noticeably better. I went with Fabspeed Maxiflows, IDP plenum, EVOMS intake and EVOMS stage 2-software that my fine friends there dialed in for my modifications. This was after having my entire engine rebuilt so there weren't any lingering issues there. A fresh MAF really helped in my vehicle. Otherwise, I am also running a full H&R suspension setup with adjustable sways and once that was dialed in, I think it made the most impact on the driving experience.

[Silver_TT]

That's fine and for folks that are attached to their car, I get it.  Another user on this site recently had their engine rebuilt by Jake Raby despite the age of the vehicle and cost of the car/repair.  They said they like their car and have changed various things to be exactly the way they want it.  They plan to keep the car and didn't want to part with it.  Fine.  I get it that all decisions aren't always an exercise in economic optimization.  If you are happy with your car and all the money you spent to mod and rebuild the engine, I certainly don't have a problem with it.  I just think it would have been misleading to give the "simple" answer to the original poster's question.

[stutzchris]

I think the original question was, "What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car?". I was fortunate to get a deal on my 2001 996 C4.  I was also fortunate to buy it with the suspension upgraded to H&R Coil overs and the engine mounts upgrade to Wevo Semi Solid engine mounts.  The mufflers are upgrades as well, but I do not know what they are since I can find no branding on them.  The mufflers are chrome. I am not aware of Porsche putting chrome mufflers in the 996. 

 

An air filter alone, again to my limited knowledge, cannot increase HP substantially.  Expanding exhaust capabilities can, but for a FabSpeed they are not cheap and increase HP by 8 whp and cost $1500 si. FabSpeed headers increase 15 whp. and a complete FabSpeed performance system with ECU chipping is 7 Grand and increase 26 HP.  The torque raises proportionally.   I am not thinking this is "cheap"  And this is if you do installation yourself to save labor cost. 

 

Can anyone tell me if quantifiably 30 HP really makes a difference on a 3000 lb vehicle.  A 996 Turbo has 420 HP  vs the NA 3.4 which has 296 HP.  the Turbos go for 12000 to 15000 more than the NA.  Quick math the Turbo is $100/1 HP vs $233/1 HP on the FabSpeed Performance package.  I am sure if you shop around you can find cheaper components to upgrade the 996. 

 

I like some others sit and ponder, while having coffee at the computer, about upgrading my 996.  I also have a budget to live with.  I do my own repairs where i am capable and fluids changes as well.  I welcome the advice of those who have greater technical knowledge than I do in this forum.  If money were no object I would be in a turbo but the reality is I could buy the 996 for cash and have the ability to maintain it well.  I lean in and start to believe the marketing and hype of upgrade gains.  I come here to bring me back to reality. 

 

I again like the advice of take DE classes and learn to really drive the care.  Learn to drive it in a safe location where I can get the true feel for what the car can. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by stutzchris

[JFP in PA]

I think the original question was, "What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car?". I was fortunate to get a deal on my 2001 996 C4.  I was also fortunate to buy it with the suspension upgraded to H&R Coil overs and the engine mounts upgrade to Wevo Semi Solid engine mounts.  The mufflers are upgrades as well, but I do not know what they are since I can find no branding on them.  The mufflers are chrome. I am not aware of Porsche putting chrome mufflers in the 996. 

 

An air filter alone, again to my limited knowledge, cannot increase HP substantially.  Expanding exhaust capabilities can, but for a FabSpeed they are not cheap and increase HP by 8 whp and cost $1500 si. FabSpeed headers increase 15 whp. and a complete FabSpeed performance system with ECU chipping is 7 Grand and increase 26 HP.  The torque raises proportionally.   I am not thinking this is "cheap"  And this is if you do installation yourself to save labor cost. 

 

Can anyone tell me if quantifiably 30 HP really makes a difference on a 3000 lb vehicle.  A 996 Turbo has 420 HP  vs the NA 3.4 which has 296 HP.  the Turbos go for 12000 to 15000 more than the NA.  Quick math the Turbo is $100/1 HP vs $233/1 HP on the FabSpeed Performance package.  I am sure if you shop around you can find cheaper components to upgrade the 996. 

 

I like some others sit and ponder, while having coffee at the computer, about upgrading my 996.  I also have a budget to live with.  I do my own repairs where i am capable and fluids changes as well.  I welcome the advice of those who have greater technical knowledge than I do in this forum.  If money were no object I would be in a turbo but the reality is I could buy the 996 for cash and have the ability to maintain it well.  I lean in and start to believe the marketing and hype of upgrade gains.  I come here to bring me back to reality. 

 

I again like the advice of take DE classes and learn to really drive the care.  Learn to drive it in a safe location where I can get the true feel for what the car can. 

 

I bring a different perspective to the conversation because as a shop owner, I get to see and drive a lot of different cars on a regular basis.  I'm also the guy the cars come to when things are not doing so well, and when the question of why things sometimes cost so much come up.  So let me see if I can help shed any light on your question.

 

Adding a real 30HP to a normally aspirated 996 will make a difference in how the car feels and performs if the modifications raise both the HP and Torque curves above the stock curves in a useful portion of the engine's RPM range.  Unfortunately, in the aftermarket, that seems to rarely happen.  Some modifications, replacement plenums and large throttle bodies come to mind, can actually lower the mid range torque and HP numbers somewhat, only adding real additional power over stock in the last few RPM's before the rev limiter kicks in.  So if asked does this modification make more absolute power, the answer is yes, but the car does not show it in normal driving, and may actually feel a bit softer.  And that can be a lot of money to spend for a small performance advantage in and RPM range that the engine spends very little time in.  Modifications that only make power at the extremes of the RPM range maybe good perhaps for bragging rights, not so much for track lap times.

 

Secondly, when asked what modifications we would suggest, we always start with the basics on the normally aspirated cars: Plan on building a solid foundation before you start trying to build HP.  The normally aspirated M96 engine has a known Achilles heel: the IMS.  Fortunately, there are excellent aftermarket fixes for this.  So before spending a ton of cash on exhaust, intake, or DME modifications, update the IMS, add a spin on oil filter, and a magnetic drain plug and Filter Mag.  Then you have a solid foundation to consider additional modifications to without having everything suddenly being reduced to a boat anchor.

 

Lastly, the Turbos; are they worth the money?  The answer has to be "YES!" in all capital letters.  I have had the pleasure to drive every Turbo made, from the early 930 air cooled street cars, to the 935 slant nose RS and RSR, the 996 and 997, and even a handful of the 991's with the new 9A1 derived engines; and I can assure you that each new model has added to the legend of those that preceded them.  A Mezger engine 996 Turbo is both a well balanced car and one with incredible potential.  For the money it takes to make a claimed additional 30HP in a normally aspirated 996, you can take a 996 Turbo from being very impressive to down right scary across the entire RPM range; and do it knowing the factory engine will happily take it and ask for more.

[Silver_TT]

That's in fact what got me into a TT (and on the bandwagon).  I previously had a M96 and when I figured out all the money I was going to have to spend in preventative maintenance before even thinking about enhancements -- and then still have a much lesser engine -- it was a no-brainer, the cost difference is too small.  While what first attracted me to the vehicle, the additional horsepower is really only grazing the surface of what the Mezger brings to the table.  From an engineering perspective it's near flawless.  Even at stock the car is just downright nasty on a track.  Makes my heart skip beats under full boost on the straights.

[Y2K911]

Come on, you two! Cut it out!

M96 owners are now all drooling profusely for a Mezger engine.

Not fair before Christmas!  :cursing:

 

Enjoy your Holidays!   :cheers:

Edited December 24, 2014 by Y2K911

[JFP in PA]

Come on, you two! Cut it out!

M96 owners are now all drooling profusely for a Mezger engine.

Not fair before Christmas!  :cursing:

 

Enjoy your Holidays!   :cheers:

 

Here ya go, just put a bow on it and place it under your tree..............

 

 

 

And for a bit more "seasonal frivolity", here is a 1054HP race version Hans whipped up for Porsche's Indy and F1 development:

 

[Y2K911]

Good one, Jean-F.!

 

Joyeux Noël à toute la famille "P"!

Martin

[JFP in PA]

Good one, Jean-F.!

 

Joyeux Noël à toute la famille "P"!

Martin

 

Et la même chose pour vous et les vôtres, plus meilleurs voeux pour la nouvelle année sécuritaire, sain et prospère! :cheers:

[Silver_TT]

Indeed, nice one JFP! ha-ha

 

Well, I don't know near as much as JFP but I know a good deal when I see one.  If I am a Turbo-evangelist it is not because I want others to feel inferior or bad about their M96.  I just say the things I wish I had read or that someone that knows had told many years ago.... I only want the best for the Porsche community and I hate seeing folks disappointed or wasting money.

 

Happy Holidays!

Edited December 24, 2014 by Silver_TT

[Y2K911]

No issue at all with your sobering position in this thread, Silver_TT.

Going TT seems to be the way to go if more power is that important to the owner of a 996 platform.

More power & more peace of mind while on the power curve. What's not to like?!

[white out]

Best mod for the dollar, LSx. 

 

 

[996.solo2]

Best mod for the dollar, LSx. 

I saw the black 996 you did on rennlist...excellent work! At the risk of offending the purists, the LS swap is indeed a good bang-for-buck option, should the M96 go kaboom. I've seen a couple of E36s with the same and those cars are really impressive! The fact that you can go to your local AutoZone for parts is a big plus...

[Loren]

I can not speak for Contributing Member creekman (he has done the LS swap) but I think he would say he could have bought a Turbo for what the swap has cost him.

[white out]

I posted jokingly. But for an M96 replacement, the LS swap is a good option. Depending on how you go at it the swap can cost the same as a replacement M96 or $20k. 

[Silver_TT]

I think this was part of JFP's initial point: first focus on building a solid foundation so you minimize the possibility of needing to replace the engine in the first place.  If you have to, then at that point it's a sunk cost anyway because your car is only worth its weight in scrap metal without a working engine.  I made the point that the Turbo doesn't have the vulnerabilities that are inherent in the M96 so that should be priced-in and narrows cost spread of the two vehicles.

 

Three pages into this thread and you still seem naïve to the point.  The only thing I'm a "purist" about is making poor financial decisions.

[JFP in PA]

I posted jokingly. But for an M96 replacement, the LS swap is a good option. Depending on how you go at it the swap can cost the same as a replacement M96 or $20k. 

 

Not really a "level playing field" cost comparison, unless you are starting with a crate engine LS.  You can find a fully serviceable M96 in the $4-7K range, depending upon which model you are looking for.

[white out]

I think you underestimate how cheap an LSx and PCM can be found for. 

 

Biggest cost is the KEP engine/trans adaptor and engine mount (renegade if you buy it). 

[JFP in PA]

I think you underestimate how cheap an LSx and PCM can be found for. 

 

Not at all, but you are vastly over estimating what a replacement M96 can cost.