Porsche 911 (996) performance?

[shawnbem]

A1999 Porsche 911 (996) w/ 65k miles on it. What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car? It is all stock. I was thinking about a K&N filter but any other ideas?

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Edited December 12, 2014 by shawnbem

[987_RDC]

Likely replacing the heavy exhaust with something lighter and free flowing. Intake is just for sound.

Shed weight.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 987_RDC

[Ronnie38]

Shed sprung weight.

[Silver_TT]

You're not going to be able to add any cheap noticeable horsepower to that car.  A lot of people spend money to mod their cars which only places additional stress on the components of the vehicle.  Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes it ends in disaster.  It also doesn't make any sense economically with your car because for what you would have to spend doing a major overhaul of several components of the vehicle to accomodate the additional stress of more HP, you could just spend the money on a Turbo, for example, which is still going to be better than whatever you are able to do by modding your car.  There is no gain with the K&N filter despite what folks say, to me it's just an expensive air filter, that is all.  Anyway, I know all the modding folks are going to jump on my case but if you think about it objectively and don't just read some tuners' websites making all sorts of unproven claims, you will see that it's just throwing money away.  Conversely, you can add lots of horsepower to a Turbo (a block built to take much more intense punishment).......but it ain't cheap.

[JFP in PA]

A1999 Porsche 911 (996) w/ 65k miles on it. What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car? It is all stock. I was thinking about a K&N filter but any other ideas?

 

First of all, welcome to RennTech :welcome:

 

If the car has not had it done already, invest in and IMS and RMS update to assure the engine's longevity, add a spin on oil filter and a magnetic drain plug for insurance.

 

And before investing large sums of money into aftermarket components with little or dubious power advantages, put some money into a good driver's education session or two to learn how to competently drive your car.  Most that have done so will tell you it was one of the best investments they ever made.

[Silver_TT]

What JFP says about taking some DE is really good advice.  You really will be amazed how much better you can drive with some DE and practice (the DE is necessary but not sufficient).

 

I don't mean to be a Debbie-downer, I just hate seeing marketing making claims about filters adding 30 HP.  Or "high performance" filters that cost ten times as much as the OEM filter.  Unfortunately if you read what's out there there's a lot more false information than good information (this site would be an exception because it's moderated).  If all it really took to get more HP was adding a different filter, Porsche would have done that from the factory.  

 

Congrats on your new car!... they are a blast to drive.

[996.solo2]

Follow Chapman's advice and add lightness. Not always free but it does wonders. However, to actually add power, I'd start with a good set of headers, a set of 200-cell cats and a custom tune. 

[Silver_TT]

Follow Chapman's advice and add lightness. Not always free but it does wonders. However, to actually add power, I'd start with a good set of headers, a set of 200-cell cats and a custom tune. 

 

 

Sorry but this is completely bogus.  A "custom tune" is getting you nothing on a M96 except a lighter wallet and probably pushing your engine out of spec.

[Loren]

I agree on a normally aspirated 996 you can spend several thousand dollars and maybe get to an additional 30 HP.

If you want a lot more HP and the ability to add much more -- then trade the car in and get a 996 Turbo. Turbos are pretty easy to get additional 100 plus HP from exhaust, divertor valves and and a good tune.

[judgejon]

haven't been around the forum for a while, and glad to come on and see this thread.

I agree with Loren and the others.  Mods may look and sound great, and thats ok if thats what you want to do.  Lots of cool mods are all over the forum.

But for HP and handling you need to go to track mode.  For daily driving and looks, that's a totally different issue.

I did engine and exhaust mods on my old 911SC and kicked up performance pretty good.  totally different car.

My 996 hasn't really been touched, but I've considered wheels, coil-overs, front spoiler, exhaust tips, and painted low side panels just cause I think all that might look good.  No autocross or hot-track with this car.  Just daily driving, and I'm happy, and haven't poured $ into any mods.  Some might change over to C$S mode.  It would be easy.  

Is yours a daily driver like mine?  Do what you want re appearance for sure.  But its not cost effective to sink $ into horsepower.  320 or 345 is pretty good, all IMHO of course.  Cheers,

[gordon24]

This is great discussion and I really appreciate the points and perspectives people are sharing.  

 

I use my 02 C4S as a daily driver with limited track time.  I've built a list of all the cool performance things I could do and, once I added the column up I quickly realized I need a plan. I remind myself I could quickly get a much greater level of performance at a lower cost just simply selling my car and getting into a 996 Turbo.  

 

I've rationalized my approach now:

1. Simply enjoy driving a great car everyday to/from work along with weekend trips through the incredible mountain roads here in the NW.

2. Upgrade on failure; my cats went so I put in 200 cell x-design and changed to a BMC air filter ... some torque add and nice exhaust notes, when mufflers fail I'll upgrade those and do headers at the same time.

3. Do the essential maintenance needed for longevity; I've installed the LN Engineering spin on oil filter adapter and shortened my oil change intervals to 5K miles.  My next action will be LMS/RMS with clutch, flywheel and AOS as needed.

 

So many different approaches depending on you goals, budget and patience. I've reached the conclusion that as long as I'm not doing something that's just plain dumb it's hard go wrong.  For me, having a clear set of priorities has really helped me keep perspective.

 

I've learned so much from this forum since buying my car 18 months and 15K miles ago; my personal thank you to Loren and all the folks that contribute.

[996.solo2]

 

Follow Chapman's advice and add lightness. Not always free but it does wonders. However, to actually add power, I'd start with a good set of headers, a set of 200-cell cats and a custom tune. 

 

 

Sorry but this is completely bogus.  A "custom tune" is getting you nothing on a M96 except a lighter wallet and probably pushing your engine out of spec.

 

And I take it you speak from experience? If so, please share...

 

And while *most* comments here are indeed helpful, it really takes away from the OP's question: What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car?

 

Suggestions are great but if the OP was looking to trade in the car for a Turbo, maybe he/she would've asked a different question. If he/she was looking to improve his/her driving skills in the immediate future with DEs or such, same thing. Why for once can't folks just give a direct answer to a simple question? 

Edited December 12, 2014 by 996.solo2

[JFP in PA]

 

 

Follow Chapman's advice and add lightness. Not always free but it does wonders. However, to actually add power, I'd start with a good set of headers, a set of 200-cell cats and a custom tune. 

 

 

Sorry but this is completely bogus.  A "custom tune" is getting you nothing on a M96 except a lighter wallet and probably pushing your engine out of spec.

 

And I take it you speak from experience? If so, please share...

 

And while *most* comments here are indeed helpful, it really takes away from the OP's question: What is the easiest & cheapest way to add horsepower and performance to this car?

 

Suggestions are great but if the OP was looking to trade in the car for a Turbo, maybe he/she would've asked a different question. If he/she was looking to improve his/her driving skills in the immediate future with DEs or such, same thing. Why for once can't folks just give a direct answer to a simple question? 

 

 

Several did just that.  Unfortunately, a lot of aftermarket claims are cannot be substantiated by real world dyno testing and/or track lap times, and most of the modifications are neither cheap or performance enhancing.  We have seen expensive mods that resulted in very marginal HP increases on a dyno, and then only in RPM ranges where the car spends very little of its life.  Silver_TT purchased a 996 Turbo car with an expensive aftermarket "tune" already installed, and which would not pass state inspection where he lived.  After flashing the car back to stock configurations, it went right through inspection, but he also found the performance was literally no different with the stock flash.

 

Quite often, the real world ends up being quite a bit different than the marketing hype.  And as Loren correctly pointed out, on the normally aspirated 996's, you can spend a lot of money and get very little in return.

[Silver_TT]

My response was quite direct; the point was that there is no easy and cheap way to add horsepower and performance to his car.  The benefits of tuning are little to none on an M96, despite the trade-offs.  I just hate seeing folks spending thousands of dollars and getting the idea that it's actually going to make a difference.  The point about DE is simply that there are cheaper ways to get more performance out of your car than thinking software is going to magically make your car go faster than what the Germans figured out.

 

I am not the resident expert but it's a well known fact that trying to get more horsepower out of an M96 is like squeezing water from a rock.  My 996 TT came with a tune on it and when I took it off I couldn't tell a single bit of difference.  The original owner told me "it adds 100 HP to the Mezger."  The reason I took it off was because it wouldn't pass emissions in the state I brought the car to, and because the device that it came with that was supposed to be able to switch between stock and various performance/octane modes didn't work.  Further, their technical support was horrendous and when I had to drive four hours roundtrip to their "authorized" shop to have the tune taken off because tech support in England told me it required special hardware and software, it turns out they just have some junky Dell laptop with their garbage software running on it.  Their authorized tech was an 18 year old kid who was very nice but didn't know how to use a PC, I had to do all the work for him.  When I asked him how many Porsche's they have worked on he said that was their first.

 

Anyway, while there may be a handful of decent tuners out there I can really only see it being justified on a Turbo if you're so inclined.  I just hate to see folks get the wrong idea and waste money on stuff like this.  I made the mistake of doing it so I feel compelled to let other people know because I'm not happy with the experience.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Silver_TT

[996.solo2]

I'm not going to go back-and-forth with what headers and 200-cell cats can do for NA 996s. The ones who've actual experience with such upgrades don't need convincing.

As far as the custom tune, that bit isn't just about power. It's also about making sure your motor isn't running on the lean side with your new bolt-ons so you don't burn a piston. It's about making sure that the power that you do have is nice, linear and without flat spots. And yes, it's also about maximizing the output from the said bolt-ons and getting every hp you can...

Edited December 13, 2014 by 996.solo2

[JFP in PA]

As far as the custom tune, that bit isn't just about power. It's also about making sure your motor isn't running on the lean side with your new bolt-ons so you don't burn a piston. It's about making sure that the power that you do have is nice, linear and without flat spots. And yes, it's also about maximizing the output from the said bolt-ons and getting every hp you can...

 

Long before you would burn a piston, the car would code, even with the stock DME flash.  And to go back to what Loren already stated, "on a normally aspirated 996 you can spend several thousand dollars and maybe get to an additional 30 HP", and that would be on a ten-tenths prepped car.  We have had customers literally go the full boat (headers, sport cats, exhaust, intake mods, and even multiple DME re-flashes) and barely get that level of increase on these normally aspirated cars on a good dyno.  We have also had owners try multiple brands of component's (headers, exhaust systems, re-flashes, etc.) end up with more spare parts than I have in my shop and a wallet that is easier to sit on, but not much more of an improvement, which was also completely born out in track lap times.  It is not easy to get a ton more performance out of these cars, and quite plainly many owner's end up wondering if the view was really worth the climb.

[Y2K911]

J-F: You signature quote by RP Feynman, supports your answer completely or as we say in french: Elle est très à-propos!

[JFP in PA]

J-F: You signature quote by RP Feynman, supports your answer completely or as we say in french: Elle est très à-propos!

 

Or as Americans often say, and loosely translated, "La preuve est dans le pudding!"

[996.solo2]

 

As far as the custom tune, that bit isn't just about power. It's also about making sure your motor isn't running on the lean side with your new bolt-ons so you don't burn a piston. It's about making sure that the power that you do have is nice, linear and without flat spots. And yes, it's also about maximizing the output from the said bolt-ons and getting every hp you can...

 

Long before you would burn a piston, the car would code, even with the stock DME flash.  And to go back to what Loren already stated, "on a normally aspirated 996 you can spend several thousand dollars and maybe get to an additional 30 HP", and that would be on a ten-tenths prepped car.  We have had customers literally go the full boat (headers, sport cats, exhaust, intake mods, and even multiple DME re-flashes) and barely get that level of increase on these normally aspirated cars on a good dyno.  We have also had owners try multiple brands of component's (headers, exhaust systems, re-flashes, etc.) end up with more spare parts than I have in my shop and a wallet that is easier to sit on, but not much more of an improvement, which was also completely born out in track lap times.  It is not easy to get a ton more performance out of these cars, and quite plainly many owner's end up wondering if the view was really worth the climb.

 

For 996 NA cars - as I'm sure you'd know - tuning is more about the driveability, throttle response, air/fuel ratios...about maximizing the gains from the headers and cats you just added to the car. Then again, feel free to nitpick and focus on certain points of my response to benefit the lesser-informed. Or if you simply wish to discredit my suggestion.

 

The mods I suggested can be done for under $1500, if one has decent DIY skills. Headers, 200-cell cats welded in place of the OEM ones, a $720 tune such as this. Relatively affordable for the Porsche-owning high-rollers, right?

 

Again, remember the OP's question. While at no point did I mention anything about "a ton more performance," my response simply offered the biggest bang-for-buck suggestion. Power-wise, it's where NA 996s get the most noticeable gains for the least outlay. No more, no less.

Edited December 13, 2014 by 996.solo2

[JFP in PA]

 

 

As far as the custom tune, that bit isn't just about power. It's also about making sure your motor isn't running on the lean side with your new bolt-ons so you don't burn a piston. It's about making sure that the power that you do have is nice, linear and without flat spots. And yes, it's also about maximizing the output from the said bolt-ons and getting every hp you can...

 

Long before you would burn a piston, the car would code, even with the stock DME flash.  And to go back to what Loren already stated, "on a normally aspirated 996 you can spend several thousand dollars and maybe get to an additional 30 HP", and that would be on a ten-tenths prepped car.  We have had customers literally go the full boat (headers, sport cats, exhaust, intake mods, and even multiple DME re-flashes) and barely get that level of increase on these normally aspirated cars on a good dyno.  We have also had owners try multiple brands of component's (headers, exhaust systems, re-flashes, etc.) end up with more spare parts than I have in my shop and a wallet that is easier to sit on, but not much more of an improvement, which was also completely born out in track lap times.  It is not easy to get a ton more performance out of these cars, and quite plainly many owner's end up wondering if the view was really worth the climb.

 

For 996 NA cars - as I'm sure you'd know - tuning is more about the driveability, throttle response, air/fuel ratios...about maximizing the gains from the headers and cats you just added to the car. Then again, feel free to nitpick and focus on certain points of my response to benefit the lesser-informed. Or if you simply wish to discredit my suggestion.

 

The mods I suggested can be done for under $1500, if one has decent DIY skills. a custom tune such as this. Relatively affordable for the Porsche-owning high-rollers, right?

 

Again, remember the OP's question. While at no point did I mention anything about "a ton more performance," my response simply offered the biggest bang-for-buck suggestion, addressing the areas where one tends to offer the most noticeable gains (for the least outlay) on NA 996s. No more, no less.

 

 

Actually, the EVOM table is quite informative.  According to the information listed in the table for  3.6L 996, and using the prices listed on the EVOM website as of today, as well as the E-bay headers and cats you mentioned, the following should apply:

 

EVOM tune             $1000

V-Flow intake            $695

E-bay Headers          $250

Cats                           $200

                       

Total (no labor)       $2145

 

Gain: 320HP to 345HP, or a 25HP increase, or a little less than $86 per HP, assuming a dyno would confirm their increase numbers.

 

If you went with their "Stage 2" tune, intake and exhaust (no headers), again parts only (no labor), your gain would be around 30HP, for $2750, or around $92 per HP, again assuming the gains can be verified on the dyno.

[996.solo2]

Oh, I forgot about the intake. Still, only the lazy, brand-loyal or frivolous would pay seven bills for an intake! A quick search on Rennlist or 6speedonline and one can find used intake for $100 or so. If one must have a new intake, it can be had for as little as $320. And that was found with just a quick search. There might be better deals out there if one takes more time to look.

 

As for the tune, you can actually get it for either $800 (3.6) or $720 (3.4) if you take advantage of the sale...

 

With a bit of elbow grease, everything installed for still under $1500.

Edited December 14, 2014 by 996.solo2

[stutzchris]

I get the $$/HP ratio is not good on upgrading the 996 NA.  I would like to know if the Softronic tune is worth the investment. Are there real gains the tune.  I am very satisfied with my Durametric and they are partnered with Softronic. Are there real gains the tune. 

Edited December 14, 2014 by stutzchris

[JFP in PA]

I get the $$/HP ratio is not good on upgrading the 996 NA.  I would like to know if the Softronic tune is worth the investment. Are there real gains the tune.  I am very satisfied with my Durametric and they are partnered with Softronic. Are there real gains the tune. 

 

Softronic at around $900, claim a 20HP increase over factory, or about a 6.3%,which if verifiable comes in at around $45 per claimed HP increase.  While Softronic has traditionally claimed more conservative increases, what is not stated in their literature is what, if any, other modifications were done to the car (it is not uncommon for "tuners" to fail to disclose that they stated improvements were on a car that already had significant other modifications such as headers, intake, exhaust, cat modifications or bypass, etc.) .  You would need to speak with them to verify that the 996 test vehicle was completely stock before the re-flash, and then determine if it meets your expectations.

[Silver_TT]

After my experience I became interested and wanted to know "how can a company claim a tune adds that much HP and when I took it off, I couldn't tell a difference?"  The shop I have always gone to has a dyno.  Local PCA has had events where we go over and use his dyno for the day.  From what I have seen for the modded NA 996s, you would need to haircut those stated figures...they are giving you the best case or there is some other caveat like the power increase is only at certain [moderately useful] points on the curve -- not linear like you said.  I have even heard people retort things like "Well I don't care if it isn't really faster, it mentally feels faster and that's good enough for me."  Whatever floats your boat but in my experience "tuning" is much lighter on the scientific rigor than what the people buying it perceive.  I'm still baffled by the tuning hype out there given the lack of actual, verifiable, real results.

 

Assume for the moment that these stated claims of HP increase are correct and it's the cost/HP you state.  Even if that were the case, all of this and trade-offs just to get an extra 25-30 HP.  Like someone already said, the view isn't worth the climb or toll it could take later.  And all of this is assuming you have a dedicated track car, because if you want to be able to drive on the street you need to pass emissions...... and I already gave you the surface of a story of the type of thing you could be leaving yourself vulnerable to.  They aren't horsing around with emissions anymore.  In the state I was working in the 3rd party emissions software vendor told me flat out on the phone, "look man, I know you're running a flash on the car even if you just bought it and didn't know it's there.  I can see the checksum of your ECU binary doesn't match what comes from the factory and is on the 100+ other registered 2002 911 Turbos in my database.  You won't pass until the stock flash is back on there."  Meaning it was not legal to drive my new car.  Not to mention the other issues that flashes present such as suppression of codes as part of their defeats strategies, which makes troubleshooting using the data from the ECU sometimes unreliable since the software is sometimes giving false or dummy signals to keep the car from coding.

[Silver_TT]

I get the $$/HP ratio is not good on upgrading the 996 NA.  I would like to know if the Softronic tune is worth the investment. Are there real gains the tune.  I am very satisfied with my Durametric and they are partnered with Softronic. Are there real gains the tune. 

 

 

I know some of these software tuners offer 30-day trials, etc.  Before you spend your hard earned money for good, see if you can do a before-and-after using a dyno.... then make the decision if it's really worth the money and giving you what you expected before your trial period expires and your money is gone.