ECU flash advice

[pgvinter]

I recently picked up my first 911, a 2001 C2 with a somewhat tacky Agency Power muffler and the PVC pipe intake plenum mod. The car is a ton of fun to drive and splits commuting and weekend duties with my 2006 BMW 330 and replaces a lightly modified 1998 M3 4 door. The 911 is by far the best of the three cars and is a huge upgrade over the 2001 Boxster S I owned a few years back.

My question is with the intake and exhaust bolt-ons is it worth spending $700 to $1,000 for a flash? Will I get back any of the low end lost thanks to the exhaust? Will there just be a bit more power up top above 4000? Any recommendations for a particular flash? APR, GIAC and Fabspeed seem to have good reputations but does anyone have experience with either one or both? Also is it worth getting a reusable drop in filter for the stock airbox or should I keep using disposable filters?

I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow, I feel like I lucked out with most of the options on the car. It's Silver on Black with an Alcantara headliner, body color center console surround, e braker and center console. Manual seats. Premium audio with bluetooth aftermarket receiver. Very clean inside and out. Brand new Continental DWS no seas tires, cheap exahust, 18" turbo twist II wheels but which were unfortunately painted black on the spokes and silver on the lip creating a whitewall like effect. Clear turn signals. 3M film on the hood and fenders to reduce rock chips. Heated seats. 110k miles.

When I took it in for the PPI my mechanic said no oil consumption at all and compression between 200 and 200.6 on all six cylinders. Suspension is 100% solid. No leaks anywhere. LM Engineering IMS bearing upgrade, RMS and clutch at 94k miles. New water pump. New tires. Maintenance was all up to date. While I don't like the tacky rims and exhaust the up to date maintenance and a price of $17,500 made me feel like I lucked out. It's a blast to drive and I'm looking forward to owning it for at least a few years.

[JFP in PA]

I, for one, am not a big fan of a lot of the aftermarket DME software out there; most of them do not really do much positive on anything short of a ten tenths prepped car, and even then they don't add all that much, particularly in the RPM range you use every day. Some of these systems also cause issues with the cars, including not being able to pass state "enhanced" emissions testing, which is obviously problematic.

I think if you spent the $700 to $1,000 on some DE seat time at the track, you would get more out of the car's inherent capabilities.

[Loren]

I, for one, am not a big fan of a lot of the aftermarket DME software out there; most of them do not really do much positive on anything short of a ten tenths prepped car, and even then they don't add all that much, particularly in the RPM range you use every day. Some of these systems also cause issues with the cars, including not being able to pass state "enhanced" emissions testing, which is obviously problematic.

I think if you spent the $700 to $1,000 on some DE seat time at the track, you would get more out of the car's inherent capabilities.

+1

[1dmurrray]

I am a skeptic when it comes to "easy" power mods, but I like to try things out too. My '01 C4 (MK2 PSE mufflers and K&N air filter) was getting jealous of a '96 Vette project, so I decided to give it a Softronic tune, which promises about a 22 HP gain. I can't vouch for any power gain as I don't have a dyno, but the car is definitely running better than ever. Maybe it's all in my head, but that might be worth the cost too.

The Softronic tune comes with a Durametric cable (single vin?), so factor that into the price (there is a discount if you already have the cable), and the tune is reversible, so you can go back to the stock map for DMV inspections, if necessary. If you are curious, and it's not going to break the bank, you might give it a try. I did. Just my two cents.

[Silver_TT]

Unfortunately there are no easy power mods. Sorry but stuff like a K&N air filter is getting you nothing extra. If power is what you want, buy a Turbo -- they don't really cost that much more if you consider you're getting a vastly superior car. The problem with these DME flashes is two-fold. First there is no upside in HP gains. When I took the flash off the 996TT I bought I couldn't tell a difference. I had to laugh so hard when the seller told me the car was running up to 150 HP stronger with the software. Second, by flashing the DME to aftermarket, you're taking the car away from a known heavily tested configuration. JFP hit the nail on the head with emissions, which is a moving target as most states are constantly updating their software to catch "defeats". This will be a never ending nightmare. And further, I can't tell you how many posts I've read in the past where people had weird issues that ended up being because of aftermarket software. Generally, I think most aftermarket stuff with these cars doesn't offer enough upside to offset the "risks".

Edited May 20, 2014 by Silver_TT

[1dmurrray]

FWIW, I wasn't claiming any performance gains from the air filter or mufflers. My intent was to point out that the car was essentially stock (other than improved sound) before the tune. Just reporting my experience. No axe to grind. The TT is a supercar and a blast to drive. 50% more HP for 50% more money. Maybe some day, but I'm in no hurry to part with my C4. My favorite mods: ROW M030 suspension and 997 shifter.

[Silver_TT]

cheers :cheers:

[wross996TT]

The problem with these DME flashes is two-fold. First there is no upside in HP gains.

You had a bad tuner...my flash has greatly increased HP, made the torque curve flatter and lessened the lag. This is in general an incorrect statement for the TT.

To the OP I agree with the others for your C4...tunes just don't have much affect on your model.

[Silver_TT]

If my initial post came across as abrasive I apologize. With respect to tune I had, yes, it was garbage and I won't argue with you there. You may be right that your flash greatly increased the HP. I've read your posts and you are generally knowledgeable, so I believe you.... but I'm also generally skeptical about using software alone to get big HP gains. I know you can get plenty when you add hardware, but that's another story. Either way, I'm still not a fan of modding these cars personally (def not the Carreras but not the Turbos either). I'm sure yours is great but mine was a nightmare to get passed emissions. Could just be the state I was in but the software they use is updated weekly they told me and they are always adding new code to catch defeats. At any rate, that's just my 2 cents but I'm a "purist" now and I don't believe in molesting the hardware or software that comes on these cars from the factory. My stock TT scared the heck out of me sometimes as it is and can keep the pace with almost any car at the track -- even those that cost 5 times as much as I paid for mine -- on the days I'm driving well. To each their own. Cheers

Edited May 22, 2014 by Silver_TT

[wross996TT]

No worries, I just didn't want folks to get the idea a re-tune has no affect on the TT. Of course, do what you want.

[Silver_TT]

Fair enough. Those same folks should just know that there are a lot of garbage tunes out there.

I'm just curious, have you not had any issues passing emissions? In the state I needed to get my emissions in they are insanely anal. All "readiness" states were showing as PASS in both Durametric and at the dealer using PIWIS......but the state's software was doing something like a checksum on the flash and knew it wasn't OEM and would fail it every time. For a test being conducted by the government, I was highly impressed with their level of sophistication (granted the software was outsourced to a 3rd party vendor as I understand it). Anyway, with as "green" as Colorado/Boulder is, I have to say that I'm a little surprised that you never ran into the same issues. Also out of curiosity, who did your tune? Are you boosting with K16s or the larger K24s? I never experienced much turbo lag with the K16s. It's punch and go.

[wross996TT]

Fair enough. Those same folks should just know that there are a lot of garbage tunes out there.

I'm just curious, have you not had any issues passing emissions? In the state I needed to get my emissions in they are insanely anal. All "readiness" states were showing as PASS in both Durametric and at the dealer using PIWIS......but the state's software was doing something like a checksum on the flash and knew it wasn't OEM and would fail it every time. For a test being conducted by the government, I was highly impressed with their level of sophistication (granted the software was outsourced to a 3rd party vendor as I understand it). Anyway, with as "green" as Colorado/Boulder is, I have to say that I'm a little surprised that you never ran into the same issues. Also out of curiosity, who did your tune? Are you boosting with K16s or the larger K24s? I never experienced much turbo lag with the K16s. It's punch and go.

Silver, No I have NEVER had problem with emissions test. If I did I would just have to connect my flash loader to the OBD port and re-load the stock program. Kevin at UMW did the flash. We went back and forth with data logs to generate my custom programming (as I am at altitude). I also have hybrid turbos along with some other goodies (see my sig link). It is incredibly more linear and the torque curve is fantastic compared to stock. Yes K16s don't lag as much as K24s, but they do have some lag.

[Silver_TT]

I've seen Kevin's posts on Rennlist. He seems competent although I have no experience with him. The flash that came on my TT had a separate device that would switch it between the stock code and the flash for this reason. However it didn't work very well and the product was shoddy. The support was worse. When I asked their support if I could have the loader .exe and flash files, they told me it was way more complicated and you needed special hardware/software which was only available at an authorized shop (closest one to me was 2 hours away and that's driving in a TT on open highway). Anyway, fast forward to me driving to their "authorized" location 2 hours outside of a major city, which was some junky repair place, and I had to show the tech how to use the program and load the files. He was like 19 years old (not experienced) and didn't know a thing about how to use a computer. So I did the work for him and saw exactly how it works. Turned out there was no special hardware at all. It was an old Dell laptop with and OBD cable and some flash files on a PC.......exactly like I thought but their tech support insisted wasn't true. Anyway, I wasted 4 hours roundtrip of driving and $100 labor for something I could have done in my garage in 3 minutes. All risking getting in trouble for not having my car emissions certified. So anyway, that's my experience with tunes. You may have gotten a good one, but there's a lot of junk floating around out there so buyer beware. The same pretty much goes for software in general across the board. There's 10x more bad software out there than good software. Your tune sounds awesome though.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Silver_TT

[JFP in PA]

Fair enough. Those same folks should just know that there are a lot of garbage tunes out there.

I'm just curious, have you not had any issues passing emissions? In the state I needed to get my emissions in they are insanely anal. All "readiness" states were showing as PASS in both Durametric and at the dealer using PIWIS......but the state's software was doing something like a checksum on the flash and knew it wasn't OEM and would fail it every time. For a test being conducted by the government, I was highly impressed with their level of sophistication (granted the software was outsourced to a 3rd party vendor as I understand it). Anyway, with as "green" as Colorado/Boulder is, I have to say that I'm a little surprised that you never ran into the same issues. Also out of curiosity, who did your tune? Are you boosting with K16s or the larger K24s? I never experienced much turbo lag with the K16s. It's punch and go.

Silver, No I have NEVER had problem with emissions test. If I did I would just have to connect my flash loader to the OBD port and re-load the stock program. Kevin at UMW did the flash. We went back and forth with data logs to generate my custom programming (as I am at altitude). I also have hybrid turbos along with some other goodies (see my sig link). It is incredibly more linear and the torque curve is fantastic compared to stock. Yes K16s don't lag as much as K24s, but they do have some lag.

Not everyone is as lucky on the emissions side. Some, like Silver_TT, bought the car with a re-flash already in it, then moved it to a state with more finicky emissions testing only to run into a brick wall. Car won't pass, new owner does not have the original flash or equipment involved, originator of the re-flash is not exactly helpful, nor is the previous owner. Car is re-re-flashed back to stock at the new owner's expense, and then passes. New owner also notes that they cannot see much if any difference in how the car performs, either on the street or the track. Guys running new cars with an aftermarket flash take their car in for some dealer service item and are promptly told that their warranty in now void due to alterations of the DME software, even though the provider told them the modifications would not be detectable by the PIWIS system. All of which begs a question: exactly what are you gaining for all this folderol and expense? Of course, as their are tuners on top of tuners out there, your mileage may vary..............

[wross996TT]

Guys, I am not saying to everyone "go get your car flashed" and in particular I am not saying "get it flashed from someone you don't know and haven't done your research. about" That being said the stock programming from the factory is for, perhaps obvious reasons, conservative. There is much to be gained in terms of power especially when you have done other modifications. I don't care about warranty as my car hasn't been under warranty for some time (I did the tune when the car was a year old and was never denied warranty by my dealer). I don't care about re-sale as I intend on keeping it as long as I am able. Different strokes for different folks. Love the Feynman quote BTW....Challenger if I recall.

[JFP in PA]

Love the Feynman quote BTW....Challenger if I recall.

Correct.

I think that no one is saying that all flashes are bad, but unfortunately many seem to have their problems. We have seen more than a few, as have other posters. The warranty issue popped up around the time of the release of the PIWIS II, which is a much more "networked" system than the first version. At that time, Porsche released a memo to dealers specifically addressing the DME software issue, making particular note of the Turbo cars. And with the system now sharing data with Stuttgart, when the new algorithm caught a re-flash, your warranty was now voided world wide, so going to another dealer no longer worked, and future PPI's at resale would catch it as well if a real PIWIS was involved. We had a customer with a leased Turbo that the leasing company refused to take back at the end of the lease because of a voided warranty for a re-flash, which violated the lease agreement.

I think the key here is not to scare anyone, but just to make sure they go into entertaining a re-flash with their eyes wide open, as some have been burnt by the experience, in more ways than one.

[Silver_TT]

I totally understand what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense for you. But a lot of folks are going to care about what their resale value is. You buy a car thinking "I love this thing, I'm NEVER going to get rid of it". Then you get married, fall in love with another car later, have to move somewhere that a car isn't needed, or whatever. Life changes in ways you cannot predict.

What JFP was saying about voiding warranties is true and is a more recent phenomenon than your 2004. However it is true, and it will upload your VIN to Porsche's central database letting them know that you're SOL on the warranty, don't pass go, don't collect $200, and don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Silver_TT

[1dmurrray]

Based on my research, I wasn't expecting much from the tune on the 3.4 engine. I chose the Softronic tune because the principal there was a technical advisor to PCA. Why bother? Truth be told, I like fiddling and there's really not too much to fiddle with on these cars (that's why I got the Vette). Having now exhausted the fiddling options on my C4, I guess it might be time for some DE.

:drive: