Installing RMS without Porsche Special Tool 9609 + 9606/1

[Domiac]

NOTICE: The correct depth is 13mm (not 14mm like stated in this message) from the crank as of April 16, 2014. Check update info from forums like renntech.org before installation.

If one takes his time and is continuously taking measurements from multiple positions, is it reasonably possible to install RMS without the expensive special tools that Porsche pros use? These tools are hard to source with a reasonable price. And I cannot find a single person to do this job on my region. The closest Porsche mechanic is over 100 miles away and I'd not like to haul my engine on another car.

Regarding the steps, I'd first clean my crankcase using Isopropyl Alcohol, use clean gloves and only touch the outer rim of new RMS when setting it to the crank. Then tap it gently cross wise pattern to the correct depth with a plastic cylinder part that matches the outer diameter of RMS, constantly taking measurements when expecting the reach of 14mm from crank.

Also, should one put a touch of Curil T on the outer rim of RMS or simply let it be? I know some people do that. In any case the inner rim should be left alone.

I have to tell this seems a bit strange why the RMS leaks so easily, usually these seals just work, and what it is with the fact that you cannot use lubricate at all as the seal works under the stress of oil constantly. Nevertheless, I'll follow the instructions and go in dry!

Thank you!

Edited May 21, 2014 by Domiac

[JFP in PA]

If one takes his time and is continuously taking measurements from multiple positions, is it reasonably possible to install RMS without the expensive special tools that Porsche pros use? These tools are hard to source with a reasonable price. And I cannot find a single person to do this job on my region. The closest Porsche mechanic is over 100 miles away and I'd not like to haul my engine on another car.

Regarding the steps, I'd first clean my crankcase using Isopropyl Alcohol, use clean gloves and only touch the outer rim of new RMS when setting it to the crank. Then tap it gently cross wise pattern to the correct depth with a plastic cylinder part that matches the outer diameter of RMS, constantly taking measurements when expecting the reach of 14mm from crank.

Also, should one put a touch of Curil T on the outer rim of RMS or simply let it be? I know some people do that. In any case the inner rim should be left alone.

I have to tell this seems a bit strange why the RMS leaks so easily, usually these seals just work, and what it is with the fact that you cannot use lubricate at all as the seal works under the stress of oil constantly. Nevertheless, I'll follow the instructions and go in dry!

Thank you!

This has been covered before, but it can be done using a 4" diameter plastic pipe coupler (has a ridge half way down the inside that the old flywheel bolt heads can rest on, then tighten slowly in a crosswise pattern to pull it in evenly.)

The trick to getting the new design PTFE seal to work where the older design did not is being absolutely scrupulously clean, not even finger prints on any parts, and no sealant of any kind. You also have to install it at an unusual depth, 13MM from the flywheel mating surface of the crank, not 14MM.

[Domiac]

If one takes his time and is continuously taking measurements from multiple positions, is it reasonably possible to install RMS without the expensive special tools that Porsche pros use? These tools are hard to source with a reasonable price. And I cannot find a single person to do this job on my region. The closest Porsche mechanic is over 100 miles away and I'd not like to haul my engine on another car.

Regarding the steps, I'd first clean my crankcase using Isopropyl Alcohol, use clean gloves and only touch the outer rim of new RMS when setting it to the crank. Then tap it gently cross wise pattern to the correct depth with a plastic cylinder part that matches the outer diameter of RMS, constantly taking measurements when expecting the reach of 14mm from crank.

Also, should one put a touch of Curil T on the outer rim of RMS or simply let it be? I know some people do that. In any case the inner rim should be left alone.

I have to tell this seems a bit strange why the RMS leaks so easily, usually these seals just work, and what it is with the fact that you cannot use lubricate at all as the seal works under the stress of oil constantly. Nevertheless, I'll follow the instructions and go in dry!

Thank you!

This has been covered before, but it can be done using a 4" diameter plastic pipe coupler (has a ridge half way down the inside that the old flywheel bolt heads can rest on, then tighten slowly in a crosswise pattern to pull it in evenly.) The trick to getting the new design PTFE seal to work where the older design did not is being absolutely scrupulously clean, not even finger prints on any parts, and no sealant of any kind. You also have to install it at an unusual depth, 13MM from the flywheel mating surface of the crank, not 14MM.

Wonderful! I've considered to fabricate a tool like this (did a crude sketchup), which is a bit wider than 4" but still fits.

Don't know how to thank you enough JFP!

Edited April 16, 2014 by Domiac

[JFP in PA]

If one takes his time and is continuously taking measurements from multiple positions, is it reasonably possible to install RMS without the expensive special tools that Porsche pros use? These tools are hard to source with a reasonable price. And I cannot find a single person to do this job on my region. The closest Porsche mechanic is over 100 miles away and I'd not like to haul my engine on another car.

Regarding the steps, I'd first clean my crankcase using Isopropyl Alcohol, use clean gloves and only touch the outer rim of new RMS when setting it to the crank. Then tap it gently cross wise pattern to the correct depth with a plastic cylinder part that matches the outer diameter of RMS, constantly taking measurements when expecting the reach of 14mm from crank.

Also, should one put a touch of Curil T on the outer rim of RMS or simply let it be? I know some people do that. In any case the inner rim should be left alone.

I have to tell this seems a bit strange why the RMS leaks so easily, usually these seals just work, and what it is with the fact that you cannot use lubricate at all as the seal works under the stress of oil constantly. Nevertheless, I'll follow the instructions and go in dry!

Thank you!

This has been covered before, but it can be done using a 4" diameter plastic pipe coupler (has a ridge half way down the inside that the old flywheel bolt heads can rest on, then tighten slowly in a crosswise pattern to pull it in evenly.) The trick to getting the new design PTFE seal to work where the older design did not is being absolutely scrupulously clean, not even finger prints on any parts, and no sealant of any kind. You also have to install it at an unusual depth, 13MM from the flywheel mating surface of the crank, not 14MM.

Wonderful! I've considered to fabricate a tool like this (did a crude sketchup), which is a bit wider than 4" but still fits.

Don't know how to thank you enough JFP!

You are not the first to attempt this:

[Domiac]

I have seen this fabrication too. The trouble is that on Northern Europe, all the pipes are pretty big, like 110mm. I got bunch of friends on the Bay Area, CA, might need them to have a visit on Lowe's or such :-) It can be that I'll have a chat with a local metal or even a woodcrafting shop in order to produce two cylinders than can do the trick.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Domiac

[JFP in PA]

I have seen this fabrication too. The trouble is that on Northern Europe, all the pipes are pretty big, like 110mm. I got bunch of friends on the Bay Area, CA, might need them to have a visit on Lowe's or such :-) It can be that I'll have a chat with a local metal or even a woodcrafting shop in order to produce two cylinders than can do the trick.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, the Special Toll 9609 would not have worked anyway, you needed Special Tool 9699 and 9699/2 to do the new style seal:

These are hard to find items even here, and will set you back over $500 (US) if you could find one. Get the plastic pipe coupler...........

[Domiac]

I ended up visiting a local shop, it had a gorgeous amount of various industry drills. It was a no brainer for the owner to drill a part based on the specs I gave him. Cost was $40. Made from nylon.

I took the measurements with my digital caliper and surprisingly it feels almost perfect. I'll either tap it gently from the middle or drill largish bolt holes and "draw it in" with a larger plate on top of my custom tool.

PS. If you live in the states, be sure to have a look on what http://www.renntech.org/forums/user/20799-cheetah/ has to offer. I'd have ordered his tool myself but shipping it to Europe is a pain.

[stutzchris]

Were you a Roadie in a past life???

[Domiac]

Were you a Roadie in a past life???

You've lost me, please elaborate :beer:

[Dennis Nicholls]

"Roadie" is American slang for technicians who follow around rock groups setting up the sound equipment and light shows. They hope to get the excess girls that the rock stars don't have time for.

[stutzchris]

"Roadie" is American slang for technicians who follow around rock groups setting up the sound equipment and light shows. They hope to get the excess girls that the rock stars don't have time for.

LOL ...The girls thing is actually the reverse, the band got the cast offs!!! ... I was referring to Domiac's resourcefulness and ingenuity to make a tool ... Next he will be using duct tape and cans to make IMS ... ;)

And yes I was ... :)

[Domiac]

Gentlemen,

I think I got it :cheers: Most of the seal is in 13mm depth, one corner of it is in 13.25mm, I hope <2% difference is OK. Took many measurements with my caliper.

Used gloves and cleaned everything rigorously with isopropyl alcohol before I installed the seal. Will be fun to see if my installation actually works, will drop transmission next year again just for the fun of it (I want to check out my IMS installation too).

A few tips if someone does anything similar. I'd suggest you keep things clean, it does not hurt to use gloves, and I think cleaning surfaces with isopropyl alcohol is a good thing. When you first push RMS to crank using your hand, try to set it as straight or equal depth as possible, it should be easier to tap it in right from the center of the tool.

Stutzchris, I think you are tight, I am a roadie and JFP in PA kind of guys here are the true rock stars :notworthy:

If anyone is interested of the measurements for this tool, send me a PM, but I still suggest that anyone located in the US should simply contact cheetah and save time.

Thanks a lot guys!

[Domiac]

One more pic..

[Coloradocurt]

Good thread.

I've gotten the impression that at some point in the history of the 996 RMS issue that Porsche 'modified' the recommended installation to incorporate recessing the RMS to that 13mm depth, and possibly at that time also changed to an updated seal design. My question is if anyone knows (about) when that (I presume) TSB was issued? My 2003 C4S had the RMS seal replaced in 8/04, and inasmuch as I'm in there anyhow for a clutch and to do the IMS retrofit and the RMS is at the correct depth and appears not to be leaking, I'm thinking "if it ain't broke,.............."

Edited May 17, 2014 by Coloradocurt

[JFP in PA]

Good thread.

I've gotten the impression that at some point in the history of the 996 RMS issue that Porsche 'modified' the recommended installation to incorporate recessing the RMS to that 13mm depth, and possibly at that time also changed to an updated seal design. My question is if anyone knows (about) when that (I presume) TSB was issued? My 2003 C4S had the RMS seal replaced in 8/04, and inasmuch as I'm in there anyhow for a clutch and to do the IMS retrofit and the RMS is at the correct depth and appears not to be leaking, I'm thinking "if it ain't broke,.............."

Porsche adjusted the installed depth when the PTFE seal was released, without a TSB.

Any car we take apart to the level the seal is exposed gets a new PTFE seal, regardless of leaks or no leaks; they are substantially less problematic than the earlier designs. At the end of the day, the seal is only a $20 item, and take about 5 min. to install, while the labor to get at it is just a bit more............

[JFP in PA]

Gentlemen,

I think I got it :cheers: Most of the seal is in 13mm depth, one corner of it is in 13.25mm, I hope <2% difference is OK. Took many measurements with my caliper.

Used gloves and cleaned everything rigorously with isopropyl alcohol before I installed the seal. Will be fun to see if my installation actually works, will drop transmission next year again just for the fun of it (I want to check out my IMS installation too).

A few tips if someone does anything similar. I'd suggest you keep things clean, it does not hurt to use gloves, and I think cleaning surfaces with isopropyl alcohol is a good thing. When you first push RMS to crank using your hand, try to set it as straight or equal depth as possible, it should be easier to tap it in right from the center of the tool.

Stutzchris, I think you are tight, I am a roadie and JFP in PA kind of guys here are the true rock stars :notworthy:

If anyone is interested of the measurements for this tool, send me a PM, but I still suggest that anyone located in the US should simply contact cheetah and save time.

Thanks a lot guys!

Cheetah seems to have fallen off the face of the earth...........

[Coloradocurt]

Just curious exactly what purpose that roll pin serves. Anyone know.

[Domiac]

I'd think that one needs to install the flywheel back just in the correct position so that engine timing is kept right or in synch with the "flywheel" sensor. ECU is constantly reading how flywheel (read crank) is turning and therefore it is using this information to execute fuel injectors and spark plugs just at the right moment. Notice that there is a sensor on the engine, right next to flywheel, which reads how the crank rotates per each power stroke.

I am sure JFP, Ahsai or many others can offer even better answer than me :-)

Edited May 19, 2014 by Domiac

[JFP in PA]

I'd think that one needs to install the flywheel back just in the correct position so that engine timing is kept right or in synch with the "flywheel" sensor. ECU is constantly reading how flywheel (read crank) is turning and therefore it is using this information to execute fuel injectors and spark plugs just at the right moment. Notice that there is a sensor on the engine, right next to flywheel, which reads how the crank rotates per each power stroke.

I am sure JFP, Ahsai or many others can offer even better answer than me :-)

You are correct, the roll pin on the crank locates the flywheel in the correct orientation for the single gap in the teeth on the back of the flywheel that are read by the crank position sensor to be in the required position so that the DME knows where the crank is in relation to the cams for ignition timing, etc..

[Coloradocurt]

I've tried purchasing that tool from Cheetah (Cheetahonline.com) but the web site is a disaster in terms of the checkout process actually working (plus it offers no way to contact them via email or phone message). I'm checking into alternative fabrication options, and just curious if anyone else would be interested in buying one if they're available.

[JFP in PA]

I've tried purchasing that tool from Cheetah (Cheetahonline.com) but the web site is a disaster in terms of the checkout process actually working (plus it offers no way to contact them via email or phone message). I'm checking into alternative fabrication options, and just curious if anyone else would be interested in buying one if they're available.

Considering what the OEM tool cost, I would say there probably would be interest, depending upon the final cost.

[Domiac]

I got a PM where someone asked the dimensions of my tool, here it is. Print the image and give it to a person who can drill the tool out of nylon or something similar (strong but softer than metal).

First check my image and then when fabricating the tool, make sure that the

- first dimension is <105mm

- second dimension is >85mm

- third dimension is >43mm

- first depth is 13mm

- second depth is at least 13mm + 6mm

You also have to drill a hole for the pin, paint pin and then try to fit the tool and you'll see which place to drill.

How much over or under you wish to go depends on how good drill you have, but I'd use 0.2mm difference to ensure it fits reasonably easy and that the extraction is also easy.

When using such tool, I'd advise using clean gloves and clean crankcase surfaces with isopropyl alcohol. Do not apply anything else, e.g. grease or such, latest RMS itself has PTFE coating and you should not touch it with bare hands. Correct installation depth is 13mm from the face of the crankshaft where the flywheel mates to the crank when using latest model of RMS (in my case I used 997-101-212-01-M17) as of the date when this message was written. Before you start tapping RMS in with this custom tool, try to set it as level as possible to the crank with your both hands (use gloves) and push it as deep as it goes with ease. Then tap it in from the center. I'd suggest you check how it goes in by using caliper every now and then. At least I had to tap a bit to non center position to get it in level to 13mm depth.

(edited wording on correct installation depth, thanks JFP)

Best of luck!

Edited May 20, 2014 by Domiac

[JFP in PA]

I got a PM where someone asked the dimensions of my tool, here it is. Print the image and give it to a person who can drill the tool out of nylon or something similar (strong but softer than metal).

First check my image and then when fabricating the tool, make sure that the

- first dimension is <105mm

- second dimension is >85mm

- third dimension is >43mm

- first depth is 13mm

- second depth is at least 6mm

You also have to drill a hole for the pin, paint pin and then try to fit the tool and you'll see which place to drill.

How much over or under you wish to go depends on how good drill you have, but I'd use 0.2mm difference to ensure it fits reasonably easy and that the extraction is also easy.

When using such tool, I'd advise using clean gloves and clean crankcase surfaces with isopropyl alcohol. Do not apply anything else, e.g. grease or such, latest RMS itself has PTFE coating and you should not touch it with bare hands. The installation depth should be 13mm from the edge of crankcase to RMS when using latest model of RMS (in my case I used 997-101-212-01-M17) as of the date when this message was written. Before you start tapping RMS in with this custom tool, try to set it as level as possible to the crank with your both hands (use gloves) and push it as deep as it goes with ease. Then tap it in from the center. I'd suggest you check how it goes in by using caliper every now and then. At least I had to tap a bit to non center position to get it in level to 13mm depth.

Best of luck!

Excellent drawing. Delrin or similar nylon would be a good choice as they are tough enough for a tool, but easily machined. The correct installed depth for the PTFE seal is also 13MM from the face of the crankshaft where the flywheel mates to the crank.

[Coloradocurt]

Thanks, guys. My friend in Toledo has a very hi-tech, state-of-the-art machine shop, and I'm curious - especially from John - as to what sort of demand you feel is out there - from both DIY'ers as well as Porsche shops - at different price points.

[JFP in PA]

Thanks, guys. My friend in Toledo has a very hi-tech, state-of-the-art machine shop, and I'm curious - especially from John - as to what sort of demand you feel is out there - from both DIY'ers as well as Porsche shops - at different price points.

Cheap enough, which means quantity sales, this would be a hit for the DIY market. I'd be looking at something in the $25 range. You have to remember that the backyard guys can do this install with a plastic pipe fitting from their local Lowes that sets them back less than $5. Most Porsche specialty shops have already jumped for the factory $500 tool as we can amortize the cost across a large number of jobs already done and yet to come in the door. You could still count on some shop sales for those that do low volume work, or as a back up tool for when multiple cars are apart at the same time. I know I would buy one or two (depending upon the cost) for that reason alone.