Which IMS to use?

[Boxsterspharm]

Hello,

2001 Boxster s, 98000........ no know history of anything..specially IMS replacement....Last visit to independent Porsche tech, he suggested to replace the clutch.....no slipping or anything tolerate driving it daily but why not.....I am currently shopping for clutch kit on ebay and found prices for sachs ranging from $330 to $600 (would love to know if I go for cheaper, I am going to be in trouble or really what is the difference??.... I am not clutch abuser by any means).... sure everyone will also suggest IMS replacement....Is 2001 BOXSTER S single or double row???? and finally, I know most will suggest LN engineering but is there other less pricey option like OEM one ( I see one for $50 japan production???..brand new ) specially if you will replace the IMS every clutch cycle...say 30,000 miles!

advice truly appreciated,

[Dennis Nicholls]

First of all this subforum "top issues" is NOT for "most important issues" but rather for "convertible TOP issues".

There is no way to tell by serial numbers etc.whether a 2000 or 2001 car has a dual row or single row IMSB. They are mixed up.

See my post about how the LUK clutch kit contains a Sachs clutch. I got mine for $299 shipped from Rock Auto.

[Boxsterspharm]

opsss sorry about the "top" thing........so $299 did not give you any issues?......I called a local Porsche and the service person said:" honestly if the car is still running with this kind of mileage and there is no problem like IMS failing already, I shouldn't worry much about the IMS and servicing for oil change every 5k miles instead the 15,000 interval will certainly help" is there any truth to that???

Edited March 23, 2014 by Boxsterspharm

[JFP in PA]

opsss sorry about the "top" thing........so $299 did not give you any issues?......I called a local Porsche and the service person said:" honestly if the car is still running with this kind of mileage and there is no problem like IMS failing already, I shouldn't worry much about the IMS and servicing for oil change every 5k miles instead the 15,000 interval will certainly help" is there any truth to that???

You have to remember that Porsche would like the IMS issue to just go away; they have already lost a class action lawsuit over them, and completely deny that it is actually possible to replace many without taking the engine apart, even though many dealers quietly do LN upgrades. And while there have been reports of high mileage cars with good IMS bearings in them, we have seen both very nice and pretty awful bearings come out of low and high mileage cars. The OEM bearing is a total crap shoot; some live, some do not. For the amount of additional cost to replace the IMS and RMS when the car is already apart for a clutch, it makes little sense to leave the original IMS bearing in the car.

[Dennis Nicholls]

The OEM bearing is a crap shoot....I've often wondered whether it's caused by some "counterfeit bearings" entering Porsche's supply chain. IIUC Porsche purchases intermediate shafts, including the bearing, as an assembled subassembly from suppliers. And now OEM IMSB supplier NSK has come forth with their discovery of counterfeit bearings going around in Germany during those particular years.

http://www.nskeurope.com/cps/rde/xchg/eu_en/hs.xsl/resolving-of-counterfeit.html

Maybe the real NSK bearings don't fail but the fake NSK bearings do. This would explain the seemingly random failures observed.

[lkchris]

There is no way to tell by serial numbers etc.whether a 2000 or 2001 car has a dual row or single row IMSB. They are mixed up..

I wonder how this corresponds with the fact the IMS class action settlement specifically identifies VINs?

For example, my 2001 is early production for that year and the VIN is not included in the settlement. (As if that made any difference--it's too old). Doesn't this combination fairly strongly suggest dual row? This given the conclusion the settlement only addresses single-row cars.

What is the VIN thing all about if not identification which cars have which?

[RFM]

I do not understand why they keeps coming back to a VIN number, IMS is after all engine related which have an indification itself, the engine number notably. Some cars (VIN numbers) have a second or even third engine already mounted with obviously different engine numbers, it is obvious that it is difficult or impossible to find out through the VIN. Take it from me that they know well in Stuttgart which bearing is mounted in which engine (engine number). "Deutsche grundlichkeit" you know, it is not because they do not communicate that they do not know how it is structured, i've been there long enough to know them.

[timbo]

Just out of interest, I just visited my local indi and they had a Boxster with a failed LN bearing, they also said that they simply remove the grease seal and let engine oil lube it and have had no issues with this.

[JFP in PA]

Just out of interest, I just visited my local indi and they had a Boxster with a failed LN bearing, they also said that they simply remove the grease seal and let engine oil lube it and have had no issues with this.

 

If it really is a "failed" LN unit, it would be a rarity.  LN has only had about a dozen or so of the 12,000 plus installed units since 2009 develop problems, and most of them were traced to installation issues or other non IMS problems that generated metal grit that ultimately took out the bearing, so I would be rather circumspect of their comment without additional information.

 

Removing the rear seal does help both the dual row and the non serviceable OEM bearings, but does not help the single row units much as they seem unable to deal with the mechanical loads.  What stumps me is that to remove the seal, the car has to be in a configuration that is literally moments away from replacing the OEM bearing with a much better ceramic hybrid bearing, but just removing the seal is still, it is better than nothing.

[mikefocke]

Timbo...any idea of the history of the car before it had the LN installed?  Was the pan pulled? Any debris found there before the LN was installed?  What kind?  Frequency of oil changes thereafter?  How long had the LN been installed in years and miles/clicks? What was the bearing type...single, dual etc?  Without lots of details, it is hard to point to the bearing itself as the cause as there is environment, history and installation at play too.

 

There are LNs out there now which are getting to their recommended replacement point.

 

Yes, in the UK, the approach has been to just remove the seal.

 

Pick your approach, roll them dice.

[2000GotBoxS]

I have a question for those in the "know" concerning the IMS bearing.  If the original is a "sealed" bearing, and is separate from the main engine lubrication system, then why does everyone talk about regular oil change intervals, and using thicker 10/40 motor oil have anything at all to do with IMS condition, whether that condition is good or circumspect?

 

I hear folks talk about that, but, why would it matter?

 

Also, does the LN Engineering IMS replacement not of the sealed type?  So that it gets engine oil lubrication?  If so, how does the oil get there?  just by splashing?  there's obviously no oil pumped there.

 

I am reaching 100K miles on my 2000 Boxster S.  I routinely check the cam deviation using my durametric and have yet to see any deviation.  Also, I have hesitated changing it because I still have the original clutch and have no engine oil leaks in that proximity.  But, I get the feeling a new clutch and lightened flywheel are in my near future, so, I thought I'd start thinking replacement of the IMS Bearing too.

 

thoughts?  anyone?

[JFP in PA]

I have a question for those in the "know" concerning the IMS bearing.  If the original is a "sealed" bearing, and is separate from the main engine lubrication system, then why does everyone talk about regular oil change intervals, and using thicker 10/40 motor oil have anything at all to do with IMS condition, whether that condition is good or circumspect?

 

I hear folks talk about that, but, why would it matter?

 

Also, does the LN Engineering IMS replacement not of the sealed type?  So that it gets engine oil lubrication?  If so, how does the oil get there?  just by splashing?  there's obviously no oil pumped there.

 

I am reaching 100K miles on my 2000 Boxster S.  I routinely check the cam deviation using my durametric and have yet to see any deviation.  Also, I have hesitated changing it because I still have the original clutch and have no engine oil leaks in that proximity.  But, I get the feeling a new clutch and lightened flywheel are in my near future, so, I thought I'd start thinking replacement of the IMS Bearing too.

 

thoughts?  anyone?

 

As a class, 10W-40 oils tend to have higher film strengths than lower weight alternatives, which can afford better engine component protection, and they tend to hold up to high heat/high shear conditions better as well.  Oil change intervals stem from two points:  Realistically, the ideal time to replace the oil is when the additive package is falling off.  This has traditionally been measured by running TBN values on the used oil and trying to catch the oil at a 50% or so fall off in TBN values from that of the virgin oil; but as most people do not regularly or even frequently run used oil analysis, the safe approach is to change the oil more frequently than the factory recommends.  The second reason to change the oil more frequently is to allow you to check for the presence of metallic particulates in the drain oil and filter, which would be a sign of something going south.

 

LN's ceramic hybrid bearings are sealed on the shaft side, but open on the flywheel side.  This allows the oil mist in the engine to lubricate the bearing.

 

Without a doubt, changing the IMS while you have the car apart would be an excellent idea.  Most of the cost of an IMS retrofit is the labor to simply get at it; with the car apart for a clutch, it is the perfect time.  I would also update the RMS at the same time, and would suggest doing your AOS as well a it is out in the open with the trans out of the car, and a simple job to replace.

[2000GotBoxS]

 

I have a question for those in the "know" concerning the IMS bearing.  If the original is a "sealed" bearing, and is separate from the main engine lubrication system, then why does everyone talk about regular oil change intervals, and using thicker 10/40 motor oil have anything at all to do with IMS condition, whether that condition is good or circumspect?

 

I hear folks talk about that, but, why would it matter?

 

Also, does the LN Engineering IMS replacement not of the sealed type?  So that it gets engine oil lubrication?  If so, how does the oil get there?  just by splashing?  there's obviously no oil pumped there.

 

I am reaching 100K miles on my 2000 Boxster S.  I routinely check the cam deviation using my durametric and have yet to see any deviation.  Also, I have hesitated changing it because I still have the original clutch and have no engine oil leaks in that proximity.  But, I get the feeling a new clutch and lightened flywheel are in my near future, so, I thought I'd start thinking replacement of the IMS Bearing too.

 

thoughts?  anyone?

 

As a class, 10W-40 oils tend to have higher film strengths than lower weight alternatives, which can afford better engine component protection, and they tend to hold up to high heat/high shear conditions better as well.  Oil change intervals stem from two points:  Realistically, the ideal time to replace the oil is when the additive package is falling off.  This has traditionally been measured by running TBN values on the used oil and trying to catch the oil at a 50% or so fall off in TBN values from that of the virgin oil; but as most people do not regularly or even frequently run used oil analysis, the safe approach is to change the oil more frequently than the factory recommends.  The second reason to change the oil more frequently is to allow you to check for the presence of metallic particulates in the drain oil and filter, which would be a sign of something going south.

 

LN's ceramic hybrid bearings are sealed on the shaft side, but open on the flywheel side.  This allows the oil mist in the engine to lubricate the bearing.

 

Without a doubt, changing the IMS while you have the car apart would be an excellent idea.  Most of the cost of an IMS retrofit is the labor to simply get at it; with the car apart for a clutch, it is the perfect time.  I would also update the RMS at the same time, and would suggest doing your AOS as well a it is out in the open with the trans out of the car, and a simple job to replace.

 

Thanks JFP, but, I think you kind of missed on my question, I appreciate the explanation of the oil, but, my question is IF THE IMS IS A SEALED BEARING, WHY WOULD THE TYPE, VISCOSITY or OIL CHANGE INTERVAL HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT?  On this very forum, multiple people have referenced using 10/40 to help lengthen the life of the IMS Bearing.  If its sealed from the engine oil, why would that be true?  Its like saying change your engine oil more frequently for longer life span of your wheel bearings.  Do you know what I mean?  In the case of the LN, if Oil "mist" is hitting it, then I get it, but, the stock bearing is completely sealed, correct?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand.    Thanks, B

[JFP in PA]

 

 

I have a question for those in the "know" concerning the IMS bearing.  If the original is a "sealed" bearing, and is separate from the main engine lubrication system, then why does everyone talk about regular oil change intervals, and using thicker 10/40 motor oil have anything at all to do with IMS condition, whether that condition is good or circumspect?

 

I hear folks talk about that, but, why would it matter?

 

Also, does the LN Engineering IMS replacement not of the sealed type?  So that it gets engine oil lubrication?  If so, how does the oil get there?  just by splashing?  there's obviously no oil pumped there.

 

I am reaching 100K miles on my 2000 Boxster S.  I routinely check the cam deviation using my durametric and have yet to see any deviation.  Also, I have hesitated changing it because I still have the original clutch and have no engine oil leaks in that proximity.  But, I get the feeling a new clutch and lightened flywheel are in my near future, so, I thought I'd start thinking replacement of the IMS Bearing too.

 

thoughts?  anyone?

 

As a class, 10W-40 oils tend to have higher film strengths than lower weight alternatives, which can afford better engine component protection, and they tend to hold up to high heat/high shear conditions better as well.  Oil change intervals stem from two points:  Realistically, the ideal time to replace the oil is when the additive package is falling off.  This has traditionally been measured by running TBN values on the used oil and trying to catch the oil at a 50% or so fall off in TBN values from that of the virgin oil; but as most people do not regularly or even frequently run used oil analysis, the safe approach is to change the oil more frequently than the factory recommends.  The second reason to change the oil more frequently is to allow you to check for the presence of metallic particulates in the drain oil and filter, which would be a sign of something going south.

 

LN's ceramic hybrid bearings are sealed on the shaft side, but open on the flywheel side.  This allows the oil mist in the engine to lubricate the bearing.

 

Without a doubt, changing the IMS while you have the car apart would be an excellent idea.  Most of the cost of an IMS retrofit is the labor to simply get at it; with the car apart for a clutch, it is the perfect time.  I would also update the RMS at the same time, and would suggest doing your AOS as well a it is out in the open with the trans out of the car, and a simple job to replace.

 

Thanks JFP, but, I think you kind of missed on my question, I appreciate the explanation of the oil, but, my question is IF THE IMS IS A SEALED BEARING, WHY WOULD THE TYPE, VISCOSITY or OIL CHANGE INTERVAL HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT?  On this very forum, multiple people have referenced using 10/40 to help lengthen the life of the IMS Bearing.  If its sealed from the engine oil, why would that be true?  Its like saying change your engine oil more frequently for longer life span of your wheel bearings.  Do you know what I mean?  In the case of the LN, if Oil "mist" is hitting it, then I get it, but, the stock bearing is completely sealed, correct?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand.    Thanks, B

 

 

Simple, because the seals on the factory bearings harden and fail, allowing the internal grease to seep out but without allowing enough oil in to properly lubricate the bearings, which results in the balls galling and it failing.  LN Engineering used to have a good explanation (with photos) on their website.  Nearly every factory IMS we pull had absolutely no grease left in them, even though the seals still looked good.  The oil weight choice has to do with better protection of all the bearing surfaces in the engine than the factory recommended weights, and less start up noise, and not just for the IMS bearing.  And as I mentioned, the more frequent changes are also for overall engine protection, and possible early detection of metal in the oil, an early warning sign for an IMS failure.

[mikefocke]

The LN bearing, besides the bearing materials having a longer life, are also without one of the seals the OEM bearing uses. Thus the mist (or immersion, when at rest) is effective in lubricating the bearing. Obviously, the better the oil, the better the filtration and the fresher the oil, the better the lubrication.

 

Also, LN/Flat6 provides either 2 or 3 bearing choices depending on which version you find you have once your transmission is removed. How long you expect to keep your car is what they base their suggestion on of which to use.

 

If your car is pristine, you are upgrading lots of engine parts, intend to keep it forever...then "The Solution". 

 

Medium term, for the single row engines, they offer the "Single Row Pro".

 

40k or so on the single row, their ceramic.

 

Their dual row ceramic is now thought to last well beyond the originally cautious 40k.  

 

As to why not the OEM, why use a bearing of known inferior materials and method of lubrication if the labor cost is going to be such a large proportion of the total cost?

[Patrick Pilcher]

Just out of interest, I just visited my local indi and they had a Boxster with a failed LN bearing, they also said that they simply remove the grease seal and let engine oil lube it and have had no issues with this.

If it really is a "failed" LN unit, it would be a rarity. LN has only had about a dozen or so of the 12,000 plus installed units since 2009 develop problems, and most of them were traced to installation issues or other non IMS problems that generated metal grit that ultimately took out the bearing, so I would be rather circumspect of their comment without additional information.

Removing the rear seal does help both the dual row and the non serviceable OEM bearings, but does not help the single row units much as they seem unable to deal with the mechanical loads. What stumps me is that to remove the seal, the car has to be in a configuration that is literally moments away from replacing the OEM bearing with a much better ceramic hybrid bearing, but just removing the seal is still, it is better than nothing.

I'm confused. Are you saying that people are removing the seal on brand new LN IMS bearing? I'm putting a 3.6 996 engine into my 03 986S and unclear if I have dual row. It is 03 also.

[JFP in PA]

 

 

Just out of interest, I just visited my local indi and they had a Boxster with a failed LN bearing, they also said that they simply remove the grease seal and let engine oil lube it and have had no issues with this.

If it really is a "failed" LN unit, it would be a rarity. LN has only had about a dozen or so of the 12,000 plus installed units since 2009 develop problems, and most of them were traced to installation issues or other non IMS problems that generated metal grit that ultimately took out the bearing, so I would be rather circumspect of their comment without additional information.

Removing the rear seal does help both the dual row and the non serviceable OEM bearings, but does not help the single row units much as they seem unable to deal with the mechanical loads. What stumps me is that to remove the seal, the car has to be in a configuration that is literally moments away from replacing the OEM bearing with a much better ceramic hybrid bearing, but just removing the seal is still, it is better than nothing.

I'm confused. Are you saying that people are removing the seal on brand new LN IMS bearing? I'm putting a 3.6 996 engine into my 03 986S and unclear if I have dual row. It is 03 also.

 

 

No, we were talking about the OEM bearings; no modifications are needed with the LN units. 

 

If your engine is an 03, it is a single row bearing; as such, it would also be a candidate for the LN IMS Solution, which is a permanent fix.

[Disaster]

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The seals serve three purposes.  They retain the higher viscosity grease which has better shear strength than the factory oil fill, they keep the bearings "topped off" on start up and they keep contaminants out of the bearings.  When the seals fail and leak they allow the oil to seep in and dilute the grease.  Eventually the bearings are running with less load protection because of the reduced shear strength of the oil and because the oil will drain down off the bearings when the car is sitting, reducing or eliminating the shear protection layer on start up.  This is why cars that sit are more problematic because they have drier seals.  Letting the car warm up before loading the engine will help.