RMS Seal replacement at 45k miles?

[racerken]

Hi,

I'm now in the planning phase of a clutch replacement on my 2008 997 and wanted to ask some questions. This car is my daily driver for 4 seasons with 75% of the driving city driving = stop-n-go and recently the clutch has to be pushed 1cm short of the floor in order to disengage.

1. RMS replacement

I don't have any signs of leakage. Should I worry about this during the 90k mile clutch change or replace it now? I mean why risk a bad install which may lead to leakage (in the case that I don't use the Porsche RMS Tool 9699 and the 9699/2 insert guide - per JFP).

If I do decide on replacement, is it mandatory to use the RMS Tool 9699 and the 9699/2 insert guide in order to have a successful install. I read in another posting that the depth has to be for example 14mm, not 13mm.

I would like to hear that the 3" PVC union is sufficient but I might hear that if the depth is off by .5mm, the seal will fail prematurely...

2. Torque requests:

Can someone please provide me with Torque values for:

Axle bolts.

Pressure Plate bolts.

Flywheel bolts.

do you have to stretch them? someone posted a process whereby after torquing, you stretch the bolts by 120 degrees? I can't remember the page due to over-research. Perhaps it was Pelican?

Thanks,

Ken

[JFP in PA]

Hi,

I'm now in the planning phase of a clutch replacement on my 2008 997 and wanted to ask some questions. This car is my daily driver for 4 seasons with 75% of the driving city driving = stop-n-go and recently the clutch has to be pushed 1cm short of the floor in order to disengage.

1. RMS replacement

I don't have any signs of leakage. Should I worry about this during the 90k mile clutch change or replace it now? I mean why risk a bad install which may lead to leakage (in the case that I don't use the Porsche RMS Tool 9699 and the 9699/2 insert guide - per JFP).

If I do decide on replacement, is it mandatory to use the RMS Tool 9699 and the 9699/2 insert guide in order to have a successful install. I read in another posting that the depth has to be for example 14mm, not 13mm.

I would like to hear that the 3" PVC union is sufficient but I might hear that if the depth is off by .5mm, the seal will fail prematurely...

2. Torque requests:

Can someone please provide me with Torque values for:

Axle bolts.

Pressure Plate bolts.

Flywheel bolts.

do you have to stretch them? someone posted a process whereby after torquing, you stretch the bolts by 120 degrees? I can't remember the page due to over-research. Perhaps it was Pelican?

Thanks,

Ken

First of all, when was the last time the clutch hydraulic fluid was flushed? We see a fair number of "dead clutches" that suddenly come back to life with some attention to the hydraulic system.

RMS, if you are in there, change it. Porsche has significantly updated these seals, and the latest PTFE versions have all but eliminated leakage issues.

You can definitely install the RMS using a 4" OD PVC pipe union, if you exercise care. Using the old flywheel bolts, which will rest on the ridge inside the union, hand tighten the bolts in a cross pattern slowly until you obtain the correct installed distance from the flywheel mating surface, which is 13MM, not 14. During the installation of the seal, keep all the surfaces scrupulously clean and free of any lubricant or sealants.

Axles: As you did not say two or four wheel drive, the front axle to flange is 29 ft. lb.; rears are 60 ft. lb. at the transmission, 340 ft. lb. at the hub.

Pressure plate bolts are 17 ft. lb., flywheel bolts are 19 ft. lb. +90 degrees. Both the flywheel and pressure plate bolts are single use only, so do not reuse them.

[racerken]

Hi JFP,

I bled the clutch hydraulic fluid 10k miles ago. I guess it can't hurt to check again this weekend if it thaws.

I have a 2 wheel drive. I'm assuming 2WD is 60 ft-lbs?

Thanks,

Ken

[JFP in PA]

Hi JFP,

I bled the clutch hydraulic fluid 10k miles ago. I guess it can't hurt to check again this weekend if it thaws.

I have a 2 wheel drive. I'm assuming 2WD is 60 ft-lbs?

Thanks,

Ken

Correct. Use some thread locker on the flange bolts, they are under a lot of stress and prone to loosen.

[racerken]

JFP,

I was reading this article on 996 RMS replacement (http://www.c-speedr.com/howto/996rms/rms4.php) and he removed the engine case bolts x 4. In the 997 service guide (which I just received from ebay) there is no mention of removing the engine case bolts prior to extraction of the RMS. What do you think? remove or not remove?

Thanks,

Ken

[JFP in PA]

JFP,

I was reading this article on 996 RMS replacement (http://www.c-speedr.com/howto/996rms/rms4.php) and he removed the engine case bolts x 4. In the 997 service guide (which I just received from ebay) there is no mention of removing the engine case bolts prior to extraction of the RMS. What do you think? remove or not remove?

Thanks,

Ken

I would not touch the case bolts unless they are a problem (show signs of oil seepage). More often than not, fussing with them leads to more problems than it cures, and it is not necessary to loosen or remove them when doing an RMS. Most of the later M96/97 cars already have the longer case bolts in them, so changing them out really does nothing.

[Dennis Nicholls]

Let me tag onto this thread, although my application is for a 986.

JFP had a nice tutorial photo of using a plastic pipe coupler to install a new Teflon (PTFE) RMS. Unfortunately this was in the "parts wanted" part of the forum and has since been deleted.

This is the new RMS which I have received.

The part number appears to be the latest rev. I presume the blue plastic ring is a tool for installation only. It has a small flange at the bottom. I presume the blue plastic ring centers itself on the crankshaft flange to help the actual seal slide onto the crankshaft end without damage. The blue plastic ring then falls off and can be discarded.

In the other thread JFP mentioned using a CPVC coupler instead (chlorinated PVC). PVC and CPVC are different and may have different sized couplers - which to use? All I can find here so far in 4" OD sizes are for black sewer ABS. Please see the following photo - is the fit appropriate? I guess the main concern will be whether the "ridge" in the center is the right size for the old, discarded flywheel bolts to engage when cranking down the new RMS.

Last of all, it appears that the new style RMS is intended to be put in "dry". No Curil T on the outside, and no oil on the contact side (where the seal rubs on the crankshaft). Please comment on this.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but almost all threads on installing a new RMS (here or even via Google) discuss the old-style obsolete RMS.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Dennis Nicholls

[JFP in PA]

Let me tag onto this thread, although my application is for a 986.

JFP had a nice tutorial photo of using a plastic pipe coupler to install a new Teflon (PTFE) RMS. Unfortunately this was in the "parts wanted" part of the forum and has since been deleted.

This is the new RMS which I have received.

The part number appears to be the latest rev. I presume the blue plastic ring is a tool for installation only. It has a small flange at the bottom. I presume the blue plastic ring centers itself on the crankshaft flange to help the actual seal slide onto the crankshaft end without damage. The blue plastic ring then falls off and can be discarded.

In the other thread JFP mentioned using a CPVC coupler instead (chlorinated PVC). PVC and CPVC are different and may have different sized couplers - which to use? All I can find here so far in 4" OD sizes are for black sewer ABS. Please see the following photo - is the fit appropriate? I guess the main concern will be whether the "ridge" in the center is the right size for the old, discarded flywheel bolts to engage when cranking down the new RMS.

Last of all, it appears that the new style RMS is intended to be put in "dry". No Curil T on the outside, and no oil on the contact side (where the seal rubs on the crankshaft). Please comment on this.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but almost all threads on installing a new RMS (here or even via Google) discuss the old-style obsolete RMS.

As long as the coupler had sufficient ridge to catch the flywheel bolts, and the coupler rests nicely on the seal, you are golden. Couple of points on installing the RMS seal: Everything must be scrupulously clean, not even finger prints, no sealer or lubricants of any kind should be used as they will cause the new seal to leak. Clean and dry. The PTFE seal has a different installed depth: 13MM from the flywheel mating face of the crankshaft.

[racerken]

Here is what I did for the RMS seating.

(Edit to include link to Google photos.)

 

Home Depot: 4" PVC cap.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/K9pkfc1sS4PVF3yt2

 

I used the old pressure plate bolt lay-out as a template for the holes to drill.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/0kXyhbqyOBH9n9813

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ouFjzMawr8EonLYd2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uywc3O7y4ZszUPpr1

I also cut the sides of the cap so I could measure the depth without removing the screws.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4So01VfQH5Xdz5rE2

 

 

The car still is running strong.

Edited October 5, 2017 by racerken
replace photobucket to google photo link... I have no clue.

[JFP in PA]

Here is what I did for the RMS seating.

 

Home Depot: 4" PVC cap.

 

I used the old pressure plate bolt lay-out as a template for the holes to drill.

 

I also cut the sides of the cap so I could measure the depth without removing the screws.

 

That would also work well.  The entire trick is to keep the insertion even all the way around while it is going in.  Once cocked, the seal is usually toast.

[Schnell Gelb]

I added the reply below to a similar thread we have here. I included it because it seems so many diy guides are great successes.Sometimes there are failures that can be useful to others who follow?

I made my own tool from a 3" pvc (not ABS) sewer pipe cap.Some mention 4" ,so take your old RMS as a sample when rummaging at Home Depot.

I drilled 4 holes in the cap ,not 2 because I tried a 2 hole system and screwed up ! Why? Impatience. I cleaned the metal surfaces with alcohol but must have failed to wipe off carefully(?) .The slippery surface allowed the new RMS to cant  over - ruined ! To remove, I used a pair of woodworkers gimlets by hand *No screw+slide hammer -too brutal !

I  marked the pvc cap at 13mm and cut out "Witness Windows".

As a precaution glued  in a piece of Sch.80(not 40) pvc pipe at the correct depth.This acts as a stop to prevent over-driving the seal. The Sch 80 has a small cut out for the roll pin. I doubt any of this was necessary !

The contraption was too deep to use the old flywheel bolts to pull the cap on to the RMS. You need  4 x M10 x 1.0 80 mm full thread bolts . I used 4 s/s washers for undertvthe bolt heads to spread the load on the pvc .

So ,if you can , borrow the correct tool or follow the earlier Instructions - not mine.

My system worked but is needlessly complicated.

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Schnell Gelb

[NaijaBerry]

Does anyone have any updates on easier ways to install this seal? I'm about to do a clutch and flywheel overhaul this week, I have the new type of seal ending 01 with the blue plastic, does that blue plastic serve any purpose in the installation process? Pictures of installation above are not showing, so any tips that can help would be most appreciated. Also what's the verdict on Curil T or no Curil T with this new seal?

[JFP in PA]

2 hours ago, NaijaBerry said:

Does anyone have any updates on easier ways to install this seal? I'm about to do a clutch and flywheel overhaul this week, I have the new type of seal ending 01 with the blue plastic, does that blue plastic serve any purpose in the installation process? Pictures of installation above are not showing, so any tips that can help would be most appreciated. Also what's the verdict on Curil T or no Curil T with this new seal?

 

The new design PTFE seal must be set to a critical depth in order to work properly, and all surfaces must be absolutely clean.  Even a finger print can cause leakage. The blue plastic sleeve is designed to hold the seal in the correct shape and protect the surface, the factory tool allows the seal to be installed into the tool with the sleeve still in place, and the sleeve is retained in the tool after the installation is complete.  Absolutely NO sealants of any kind should be used as they will also cause leakage.

 

All of the pictures in the above posts were lost when Photoucket changed their rules, they cannot be recovered.

[NaijaBerry]

2 minutes ago, JFP in PA said:

 

The new design PTFE seal must be set to a critical depth in order to work properly, and all surfaces must be absolutely clean.  Even a finger print can cause leakage. The blue plastic sleeve is designed to hold the seal in the correct shape and protect the surface, the factory tool allows the seal to be installed into the tool with the sleeve still in place, and the sleeve is retained in the tool after the installation is complete.  Absolutely NO sealants of any kind should be used as they will also cause leakage.

 

All of the pictures in the above posts were lost when Photoucket changed their rules, they cannot be recovered.

Thanks.

Are there aftermarket tools that don't cost as much as the factory tools, seems pointless to purchase one just for myself, except I can get one that isn't so expensive.

[JFP in PA]

Unfortunately, there are no after market tools as the application is just too small. Shops like mine are stuck buying the factory unit.

 

It can be done using a tool fabricated from four inch plastic pipe unions and using your old flywheel bolts, but all the photos of that have also been lost.

[NaijaBerry]

4 minutes ago, JFP in PA said:

Unfortunately, there are no after market tools as the application is just too small. Shops like mine are stuck buying the factory unit.

 

It can be done using a tool fabricated from four inch plastic pipe unions and using your old flywheel bolts, but all the photos of that have also been lost.

Thanks for taking your time out to respond.

[Schnell Gelb]

Try this for photos ?

 

[NaijaBerry]

7 minutes ago, Schnell Gelb said:

Try this for photos ?

 

Thanks!

[Schnell Gelb]

See Oct 26 post above for "Witness window " and longer bolts + nuts. Without these it is very easy to mess up !

[NaijaBerry]

Thought I'd share, firstly thanks to racerken for sending me detailed instructions on how to make the tool, unfortunately round my area we use very different materials and I couldn't get the right materials to use.

 

Fortunately after a very deep search, I came across the tool attached below its called a Sir Tools P250 (or SIRP250) and I bought it on ebay for $140, just finished installing, everything looks good, I will follow up after testing.

[Schnell Gelb]

In Search you will find some well-informed comments(not mine) about usin a slightly different depth to set the seal.Perhaps if the c/s exhibits some wear from the old seal . The correct tool is a mere part of the reinstall. The fanatical cleaning is the other -also in Search.

Ignoring either/both of these issues may result in a leak despite the correct updated part and the correct tool.

[NaijaBerry]

1 minute ago, Schnell Gelb said:

In Search you will find some well-informed comments(not mine) about usin a slightly different depth to set the seal.Perhaps if the c/s exhibits some wear from the old seal . The correct tool is a mere part of the reinstall. The fanatical cleaning is the other -also in Search.

Ignoring either/both of these issues may result in a leak despite the correct updated part and the correct tool.

Yes I had read about the cleaning, I've tied my best follow all tips given by different folks, let's see what happens when I fire it up. 

 

Thanks. 

[JFP in PA]

The tool you used is designed for the Viton RMS seal, not the later PTFE seal, and will install the later seal at the incorrect depth.  Currently, only Porsche makes the correct tool for the PTFE seal, or you need to make your own.

[Schnell Gelb]

58 minutes ago, JFP in PA said:

The tool you used is designed for the Viton RMS seal, not the later PTFE seal, and will install the later seal at the incorrect depth.  Currently, only Porsche makes the correct tool for the PTFE seal, or you need to make your own.

In those 2 sentences you have proof of the value of subscribing to Renntech.

Any other Porsche Forum would have pages of banter and dickering before you would find such a gem - if at all.

I made a mistake installing my first RMS and confessed my sins here.

I had to redo using an improved home-brew tool.Fortunately that was before I installed the trans. Set  at the correct depth,the new seal does not leak a drop.

I am grateful to Renntech Forum members who took the time to specify the different depth for the different seal.

[NaijaBerry]

5 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

The tool you used is designed for the Viton RMS seal, not the later PTFE seal, and will install the later seal at the incorrect depth.  Currently, only Porsche makes the correct tool for the PTFE seal, or you need to make your own.

Thanks for this JFP, unfortunately I do not have the luxury of getting the right materials to make my own