997.1 Purchase Advice Please

[A34735]

Hi there,

I totalled my 996 (avoiding a deer) on Monday, have just been to see a lovely 997.1 C4 Manual Cabriolet as potential replacement. It's 2006, has only 15000 miles on it. The local Porsche dealer gave it a clean PPI, looks like new to me.

Are there any issues with such a low mileage car? Should I consider the L&N IMS retrofit?

I'm guessing my 996 hard-top won't fit on the 997....can anyone confirm?

All advice will be much appreciated.

With thanks in advance,

Nigel

[JFP in PA]

Hi there,

I totalled my 996 (avoiding a deer) on Monday, have just been to see a lovely 997.1 C4 Manual Cabriolet as potential replacement. It's 2006, has only 15000 miles on it. The local Porsche dealer gave it a clean PPI, looks like new to me.

Are there any issues with such a low mileage car? Should I consider the L&N IMS retrofit?

I'm guessing my 996 hard-top won't fit on the 997....can anyone confirm?

All advice will be much appreciated.

With thanks in advance,

Nigel

Because this version of the engine utilized the OEM "final solution" oversized IMS bearing, you cannot replace it without dismantling the entire engine. You best bet here is to remove the rear IMS bearing seal and leave it at that.

[Silver_TT]

Just one opinion here but for the exact reason that JFP stated, that the IMS bearing can't be replaced without a complete tear-down of that engine in the 2006 you are looking at, I would not buy that model year with this engine design. For the kind of money you are looking at spending on this new car I would look for a low mileage 996TT instead. Just my opinion. But with all due respect to the 997.1, the 996TT is a better car in every regard (with the exception of some interior updates).

Edited November 8, 2013 by Silver_TT

[Mijostyn]

Silver TT I owned a 2001 911TT and I got rid of it after 10,000 miles because it was BORING and it had silly Boxter headlights. I currently have a 2006 C4S which is a better car in every respect accept acceleration. For 99.99 % of us the IMS bearing will never be an issue before the engine needs a rebuild anyway.

A34735 I'm not a cab guy but if you love the car go for it. Forget about the IMS bearing. Worry about hitting another deer. GET THE CAR CERTIFIED!!

JFP, what is the reasoning behind removing the IMS bearing seal?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Mijostyn

[JFP in PA]

JFP, what is the reasoning behind removing the IMS bearing seal?

As the bearing cannot easily be upgraded, removing the rear seal will allow continuous splash lubrication by the sump oil, eliminating the "trapped oil breakdown" pathway to bearing failure. We have several customers running this way with no problems.

[Silver_TT]

To each their own....but the TT "bored" you...that's interesting. I actually did the exact opposite and went from a C4S to a TT and, in my opinion, it's hands down a better car on the 4S's best day and the TT's worst day. As far as the motor goes, Mezger vs M96/97, there's no comparison and they aren't even in the same league. The Mezger is a engineering masterpiece and one of the best engines Porsche ever made. I wouldn't be able to say that about the M96/97 with a straight face. I think it's misleading to say that the odds of never having a failure are 99.99%.

I never got my cars certified. I prefer the route of maintaining them well and saving the money for fixing things on my own when they break rather than paying Porsche to do it. Then again, half the fun of owning one of these cars is getting to work on them...if that sort of thing interests you.

The reason to remove the bearing seal is so the oil can get in there and help lubricate the bearing. Not the most ideal solution, but that's pretty much the option you are stuck with on this car unless you want to tear apart the entire engine.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Silver_TT

[JFP in PA]

To each their own....but the TT "bored" you...that's interesting. I actually did the exact opposite and went from a C4S to a TT and, in my opinion, it's hands down a better car on the 4S's best day and the TT's worst day. As far as the motor goes, Mezger vs M96/97, there's no comparison and they aren't even in the same league. The Mezger is a engineering masterpiece and one of the best engines Porsche ever made. I wouldn't be able to say that about the M96/97 with a straight face. I think it's misleading to say that the odds of a failure are 99.99%.

I never got my cars certified. I prefer the route of maintaining them well and saving the money for fixing things on my own when they break rather than paying Porsche to do it. Then again, half the fun of owning one of these cars is getting to work on them...if that sort of thing interests you.

The reason to remove the bearing seal is so the oil can get in there and help lubricate the bearing. Not the most ideal solution, but that's pretty much the option you are stuck with on this car unless you want to tear apart the entire engine.

+1 The Metzger engine is a work of engineering art when compared to the M96/97 engine. Flog the Hell out of them and they keep coming back for more..........

[Mijostyn]

It was not the engine. It was the car. Having come from a 993 TT the 996 was more like driving a Toyota Supra. No craziness. The 997 C4S handles better than a 996 TT and it has more of that endearing craziness factor. Plus it has round headlights, IMHO and that of thousands of others, nothing else works. It is not how fast you go but rather how you go fast. Otherwise, the Metzger engine is wonderful. If I had not decided to go for a 991 TT I would have seriously considered getting one wrapped in 997 livery.

Silver TT, I love working on my car and I would have hated having to pay for a Homelink module, a PCM, a Yellow Instrument cluster, a PASM computer, a Gateway Module, a wheel carrier, a hub, and three, that's right count em, one two three rear wheel bearings.

JFP, how do you get to that seal?

Edited November 10, 2013 by Mijostyn

[JFP in PA]

You need to pull the gearbox, clutch, and flywheel off the car, which will expose both the RMS and IMS flange. Here is an ugly but informative photo:

The RMS replacement is straight forward, you just pull the old one out using a suitable pick, and install the latest PTFE version, being sure to set it to the correct depth from the face of the crank flange. As you will need to remove the IMS support flange, the engine will need to be locked at TDC with a pin, and the cams plugs need to be pulled and the cams locked before removing the three primary cam tensioners first. Then remove the IMS flange, which will expose the rear of the IMS bearing:

Now use the same pick you used on the RMS to pop out the IMS rear seal. Reassemble and you are in business. There are several on-line tutorials on doing an IMS upgrade that will provide you with detailed step by step procedures, just follow one of them but leave out the IMS extraction and replacement steps. I would highly recommend using the LN Engineering procedure without short cutting any of the other steps: http://www.imsretrofit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/imsretrofit.pdf

[Silver_TT]

:huh: What could be more "crazy" than feeling those TTs spool and the subsequent pure injection of torque and power?...in such a clean delivery. As you know, both the 4S and TT share the same wide-body, suspension, braking system, etc. The difference is the engine. The 4S is a TT with a M96/97 instead of a Mezger for all intents and purposes. After driving a Turbo, I will never be able to go back to a NA engine.

Don't mean to disagree, but in my opinion the 996TT is majorly undervalued. It amazes me what an incredible piece of technology and engineering you can get for the price. People are selling them with 30K miles (mere babies...barely even broken in) for less than 1/3 of the original price. That's insane to me. If you don't like the 996 headlights or whatever that's fine, but from a pure fundamentals and engineering perspective I think the TT brings a gun to a knife fight with a 4S. My 4S with PSE sounded way "meaner" than my silent-by-contrast TT....but as soon as you got into the car and started driving it, that whole notion was dispelled......... but, hey, drive em' both and go with what you like. At the end of the day that's what's most important!

It was not the engine. It was the car. Having come from a 993 TT the 996 was more like driving a Toyota Supra. No craziness. The 997 C4S handles better than a 996 TT and it has more of that endearing craziness factor. Plus it has round headlights, IMHO and that of thousands of others, nothing else works. It is not how fast you go but rather how you go fast. Otherwise, the Metzger engine is wonderful. If I had not decided to go for a 991 TT I would have seriously considered getting one wrapped in 997 livery.
Silver TT, I love working on my car and I would have hated having to pay for a Homelink module, a PCM, a Yellow Instrument cluster, a PASM computer, a Gateway Module, a wheel carrier, a hub, and three, that's right count em, one two three rear wheel bearings.
JFP, how do you get to that seal?

[Mijostyn]

Thanx JFP. Excuse me for being dim witted. But, wouldn't that be the front seal? Isn't the oil on the other side?

SilverTT, I'm all for G-forces and Turbos have spoiled me on that regard. I lost my 993 TT due to financial stress and having recovered ordered the 996 TT without much thought. Speed yellow, brown natural leather, big stereo. It was very fast and very competent but I guess what I was expecting was more on the lines of the 993. It was relatively sedate and I could not get use to the head lights. I unloaded it fast and for all the reasons you mention that was a good move as these cars have not held their value well. Which does make them a good deal if all you want are those little wizards spinning under the exhaust manifold. But, there is more to a car than thrust. Ever drive a circa 1984 Turbo? Talking about nuts. That was a little over the edge. The 1992-4 car was the first Turbo a doctor could drive but still a bit more lag than one would like ideally. But, that 993 TT was brilliant. You had to think about it to detect the lag and that car was alive. Now my current 997 C4S AeroKit car was unintentional. I had already put a deposit down on the 991 TT which would not be around until after my kids graduated college ( sort of intentional) I was up getting my Audi serviced and this thing was in the parking lot stealing the show. I have a weakness for Yellow cars. It had arrived on consignment 20 minutes before I got there. Didn't last long. It has more of that 911ness dialed in, enough to put the smile back on my face. The 991 TT makes me a bit nervous. I would have gotten a manual if they had offered it. I like lively steering and the electric rig makes me nervous. I drove a 991 C2S and did not like it. They are supposed to have improved it in the Turbo but you never know until you drive the car. I like the aggressiveness of my AeroKit. I think the new GT3 is stunning. Pictures of the new Turbo leave me a bit flat but they say it is better looking in person. If I like the car I can always mod it out.

It will have a good start. Guards red and black with black headlights, black wheels, clear tail lights, red stitching, red belts, red dials, carbon trim, leather seat backs and rear tunnel, Burmester surround system, get out of jail free card.

Cars are a personal thing and we tend to invest our egos in them. If you love your car that is all that counts. That is why Howard Johnson made 28 flavors.

[JFP in PA]

Thanx JFP. Excuse me for being dim witted. But, wouldn't that be the front seal? Isn't the oil on the other side?

No, that is actually the rear seal of the IMS bearing, but in a 996/997 it would be facing towards the front of the car. There is no oil, or should not be any oil, inside the shaft it self as there would be no way for it to get out; the IMS bearing is blocking that path. When the indicated seal is removed, there is still another seal on the other side of the bearing which seals off the inside of the IMS shaft. The bearing will be partially submerged in the normal sump oil capacity when the engine is not running, and oil will be splashing up between the IMS bering and flange when the engine is running, and is more than enough to lubricate the bearing.

[Mijostyn]

Thanx JFP,

When I have to replace the clutch I'll revisit the subject and modify the car accordingly. Hopefully, that will not be for another 100 K miles. At that point it will be my " remember what it use to be like to shift" car so I will be able to have it apart for prolonged periods. If you only do this stuff once I a while it never helps to rush things.

[A34735]

Thanks for all your good replies. Turned out I found a 2007 Cabrio S with only 11,000miles. CPO'ed for another 18 months, and I added a warranty for 6 years/100K....so feeling good.

Amazing improvement of the 2007 Cabrio C2S over the 1999 Cabrio C2...

And thanks again for all the good advice,

Nigel

[Mijostyn]

Nice score. Color? Options? 6 speed? Let's hear it!!

[A34735]

Nice score. Color? Options? 6 speed? Let's hear it!!

Blue, 6 speed manual (I miss the tiptronic!). Lightly loaded - though the heated seats are great in the morning with the top down...

These are beautiful cars!

[Mijostyn]

6 speed is the only way to fly. What color are the top and the interior? Do you have the Bose system?

[anthonycocca]

Thanks for all your good replies. Turned out I found a 2007 Cabrio S with only 11,000miles. CPO'ed for another 18 months, and I added a warranty for 6 years/100K....so feeling good.

Amazing improvement of the 2007 Cabrio C2S over the 1999 Cabrio C2...

And thanks again for all the good advice,

Nigel

Niiiiiiiiiiice....... Enjoy it. I had a 2000 C2 Cab and traded for an '07 C4S. Yes! An amazing improvement indeed.

[A34735]

JFP, what is the reasoning behind removing the IMS bearing seal?

As the bearing cannot easily be upgraded, removing the rear seal will allow continuous splash lubrication by the sump oil, eliminating the "trapped oil breakdown" pathway to bearing failure. We have several customers running this way with no problems.

Hi JFP in PA,

I believe my engine has the IMS version that requires splitting the case to access it. Can you say if just prising off the cover (to allow splash lube) is a realistic option for me?

As always, with thanks in advance,

Nigel

[JFP in PA]

JFP, what is the reasoning behind removing the IMS bearing seal?

As the bearing cannot easily be upgraded, removing the rear seal will allow continuous splash lubrication by the sump oil, eliminating the "trapped oil breakdown" pathway to bearing failure. We have several customers running this way with no problems.

Hi JFP in PA,

I believe my engine has the IMS version that requires splitting the case to access it. Can you say if just prising off the cover (to allow splash lube) is a realistic option for me?

As always, with thanks in advance,

Nigel

Yes, but it requires doing nearly all the work required to do an IMS bearing swap on an earlier car. While the bearing cannot be removed without a total engine tear down, once the flywheel is removed you can easily access the IMS flange cover (you still need to lock the engine at TDC and lock the cams as though you were doing an IMS upgrade before removing the IMS flange cover), and then using a tool like a dental pick just pry out the IMS bearings rear seal (it is flexible, so you can get it out without problems). Then button everything back up.

[A34735]

JFP, what is the reasoning behind removing the IMS bearing seal?

As the bearing cannot easily be upgraded, removing the rear seal will allow continuous splash lubrication by the sump oil, eliminating the "trapped oil breakdown" pathway to bearing failure. We have several customers running this way with no problems.

Hi JFP in PA,

I believe my engine has the IMS version that requires splitting the case to access it. Can you say if just prising off the cover (to allow splash lube) is a realistic option for me?

As always, with thanks in advance,

Nigel

Yes, but it requires doing nearly all the work required to do an IMS bearing swap on an earlier car. While the bearing cannot be removed without a total engine tear down, once the flywheel is removed you can easily access the IMS flange cover (you still need to lock the engine at TDC and lock the cams as though you were doing an IMS upgrade before removing the IMS flange cover), and then using a tool like a dental pick just pry out the IMS bearings rear seal (it is flexible, so you can get it out without problems). Then button everything back up.

Thx JFP