LN Engenieering failure possibilities?

[Bimmerbenz]

I have an 99 3.4 Carrera, My mileage is 32k,

I had months of searching about these theme Step by Step, so went i deside to do it, my mechanic "With a good reputation in puerto rico an Porsche owners" tells me that I should leave the car as is, because Retrofiting can cause a failure that is a Gamble once these bearing is out..

"Keeping in mind that he gets paid for these, he tells me to enyoy the car and don't do it"

These is driving me nuts, My car runs perfectly i just dont want any problem related to this ims crap.

Did somebody had any issue with LN ENGENIEERING RETROFIT ? DOBLE ROW ECT?

[Stakeman]

I have a 99 as well, with 43k. I did the retrofit myself with the LN. One thing I will say is the early 996 cars from what I've read are LESS inclined to fail. Most are single row, mine was. Before I ordered the new bearing I found the engine number on the case ans spoke with them about if I had a single or double row. I was told to pull the tranny first and look at the depth of the cover as an. Indicator as to if it was single or double row.

That being said. Unless you have good reson to believe your bearing is failing I would not worry about failure. What prompted me to do it was after close inspection of my oil filter. I found some very fine metal in the filter. So I was worried about it enough to put in the LN. I really didn't find much debris but there was some where the bearing seats into the case. I also dropped the oil sump cover(oil pan) to inspect for debris and found none. The old bearing was in very good shape and had just slightly more slop than the new one.

Bottom line it's up to you. If you have signs pointing toward a failure and can't sleep at night then go for it. After all was. Said and done I think mine could have gone another 50k and been fine. I enjoy wrenching on cars so I loved tearing it apart and finding out more about my car anyway. Best of luck with your decision.

[maor]

It's a scam.

Don't LN say to replace the bearing every 40k or something? Why not just buy the Pelican version for a fraction of the price and change that every 40k?

[Sl3ipner]

I have a 99 as well, with 43k. I did the retrofit myself with the LN. One thing I will say is the early 996 cars from what I've read are LESS inclined to fail. Most are single row, mine was. Before I ordered the new bearing I found the engine number on the case ans spoke with them about if I had a single or double row. I was told to pull the tranny first and look at the depth of the cover as an. Indicator as to if it was single or double row.

I was under the impression that *all* 1999 cars was double row IMS, that 2000 was a mix, and 2001-2005 cars had single row IMS. Indeed that should be the reason why the early cars have far less failures on this matter. The bore score issue also favours early cars for quite other reasons :)

Kind Regards

Edited October 15, 2013 by Sl3ipner

[Stakeman]

I have a 99 as well, with 43k. I did the retrofit myself with the LN. One thing I will say is the early 996 cars from what I've read are LESS inclined to fail. Most are single row, mine was. Before I ordered the new bearing I found the engine number on the case ans spoke with them about if I had a single or double row. I was told to pull the tranny first and look at the depth of the cover as an. Indicator as to if it was single or double row.

I was under the impression that *all* 1999 cars was double row IMS, that 2000 was a mix, and 2001-2005 cars had single row IMS. Indeed that should be the reason why the early cars have far less failures on this matter. The bore score issue also favours early cars for quite other reasons :)

Kind Regards

Mine was a single row.. I wish I could post a couple of pics but I'm on a trip and don't have them with me, I took several of the job. Including a good one of the bearing after I pulled it and removed the seals.

[JFP in PA]

I have an 99 3.4 Carrera, My mileage is 32k,

I had months of searching about these theme Step by Step, so went i deside to do it, my mechanic "With a good reputation in puerto rico an Porsche owners" tells me that I should leave the car as is, because Retrofiting can cause a failure that is a Gamble once these bearing is out..

"Keeping in mind that he gets paid for these, he tells me to enyoy the car and don't do it"

These is driving me nuts, My car runs perfectly i just dont want any problem related to this ims crap.

Did somebody had any issue with LN ENGENIEERING RETROFIT ? DOBLE ROW ECT?

Take the car somewhere else to someone that knows what they are talking about.

There have been very few problems with the LN replacement bearings, most of which were traced to poor installation techniques. The number of installations done and still running number in the thousands; the ceramic bearing has proven itself. When LN first introduced the replacement bearing, they did recommend replacing the bearing at each clutch change, but have backed off that somewhat as the ceramic bearing has continued to show its long term strength.

As for using cheaper replacements, in this application you really do get exactly what you pay for. One domestic supplier mentioned above uses all steel single row bearings with spacers to replace double row bearings; so you end up replacing one of the strongest design bearings with one that is known to be the weakest. But you saved a few bucks. Swell.

If you have a dual row bearing car, the LN dual row replacement is the way to go. If you have a single row, going with the solid bearing "IMS Solution" would be optimal, but you could also consider the LN single row if you are on a tighter budget. In either case, go with an approved installer.

[Bimmerbenz]

Thanks all for your response, Definetly I would do the upgrade no matter what he says...

[1dmurrray]

What if there is nothing wrong with the bearing, as is true of the overwhelming majority of these engines? If you want peace of mind, go for it; but I see no need to fix what ain't broken.

[JFP in PA]

What if there is nothing wrong with the bearing, as is true of the overwhelming majority of these engines? If you want peace of mind, go for it; but I see no need to fix what ain't broken.

The problem remains that the bearings with "nothing wrong" can suddenly change and wipe out an otherwise fine engine, and do so with absolutely no warning. Every M96/97 owner needs to make decision based upon what is known about these bearings, and in realtion to their risk tollerance levels. Some will follow Excellence Magazine's recommendation and change the bearing out as soon as possible, others may wait and do it when it is time to do the clutch, and some may choose to not do the upgrade at all. The choice is always yours to make, but it needs to be an informed decision.

[Silver_TT]

It's a scam.

Don't LN say to replace the bearing every 40k or something? Why not just buy the Pelican version for a fraction of the price and change that every 40k?

-1. The IMS bearing in the M96 and M97 should be looked at as a consumable item, much like a set of brake pads or a clutch in a manual transmission. You don't say it's a scam when you have to replace your clutch every 50K miles or whatever, do you? Replacing the IMS bearing should be viewed as insurance, and only you can make the decision how much risk you're willing to take. There's no right or wrong answer, but it would be prudent to understand the consequences of the decisions you make. To me, saying "there's perfectly nothing wrong with my car, why should I replace the bearing?" is a lot like saying "my house is perfectly fine, it hasn't been hit by a tornado or an earthquake, why should I buy insurance?". It's all fun and games until someone blows an IMS bearing..... while the occurance rate is debatable and unknown, it's not pretty when it happens. If you decide to take your chances then you need to be prepared to be able to pay for a new engine if said failure were to in fact occur.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Silver_TT

[maor]

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying, replace every 40k with the $100 Pelican option rather than the $500 LN version.

Why spend the extra money if you are changing every 40k. Both parties advise to change every 40k anyway....

[Sl3ipner]

Official Porsche numbers for failed IMS, as quoted in the Harris papers found at the US IMS Settlement:

Double row IMS (aka 1998/99, and post 2005 models) "far less than 1%".

Single row IMS between 4 and 10%.

Far less than 1% may well be in the 1/200-1/400 area, or less.

These numbers should be taken in consideration before you panic. Id say, If you own a 1999 car, wait for the clutch. A 2003 car: Just do it.

Kind Regards

Edited October 17, 2013 by Sl3ipner

[JFP in PA]

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying, replace every 40k with the $100 Pelican option rather than the $500 LN version.

Why spend the extra money if you are changing every 40k. Both parties advise to change every 40k anyway....

Again, the "Pelican Option" is a single row only steel bearing, basically the weakest known design of any used. If you have a dual row car, you would actually be replacing the strongest of the factory designs with one the weakest. You would be better off leaving the factory bearing in there and just removing the rear seal so it can get some oil.

If you had a single row car, you would be replacing a questionable design with another questionable design, all to save a few bucks.

[Cloudsurfer]

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying, replace every 40k with the $100 Pelican option rather than the $500 LN version.

Why spend the extra money if you are changing every 40k. Both parties advise to change every 40k anyway....

Again, the "Pelican Option" is a single row only steel bearing, basically the weakest known design of any used. If you have a dual row car, you would actually be replacing the strongest of the factory designs with one the weakest. You would be better off leaving the factory bearing in there and just removing the rear seal so it can get some oil.

If you had a single row car, you would be replacing a questionable design with another questionable design, all to save a few bucks.

Agree 100%. While the LN bearing isn't cheap, and I'm sure Charles and the gang are making a nice profit off each one, the R&D has been done, and it's been field proven.

If someone wants to take the gamble to save $400 on this job, be my guest, but I don't think you're going to find much sympathy on this board when your cheaper option fails and you're looking for a new motor.

[Sisuguy]

JFP, could you please elaborate on this statement ?

"The problem remains that the bearings with "nothing wrong" can suddenly change and wipe out an otherwise fine engine, and do so with absolutely no warning. "

The only way this can possibly happen is if the ball retainer cage were to fail and allow the balls to jam and skid. I have never read of any bearing being found with a broken cage? Otherwise the "normal" wear mechanism is galling/pitting over time which should manifest itself slowly with increased wear metals, slop in the bearing which may show up in the cam timing relationship as well.

[JFP in PA]

JFP, could you please elaborate on this statement ?

"The problem remains that the bearings with "nothing wrong" can suddenly change and wipe out an otherwise fine engine, and do so with absolutely no warning. "

The only way this can possibly happen is if the ball retainer cage were to fail and allow the balls to jam and skid. I have never read of any bearing being found with a broken cage? Otherwise the "normal" wear mechanism is galling/pitting over time which should manifest itself slowly with increased wear metals, slop in the bearing which may show up in the cam timing relationship as well.

They do that and more; it is not uncommon for the bearing to quietly start to tear itself apart by first pitting the balls and then galling the races, cage, and even the flange without any noticeable change in the engine until the unit totally fails without any warning, causing piston/valve contact and worse. Often, it is only when the worst happens that the owner even notices something is wrong, and when that happens there is often little left usable in the engine:

[cnavarro]

I have an 99 3.4 Carrera, My mileage is 32k,

I had months of searching about these theme Step by Step, so went i deside to do it, my mechanic "With a good reputation in puerto rico an Porsche owners" tells me that I should leave the car as is, because Retrofiting can cause a failure that is a Gamble once these bearing is out..

"Keeping in mind that he gets paid for these, he tells me to enyoy the car and don't do it"

These is driving me nuts, My car runs perfectly i just dont want any problem related to this ims crap.

Did somebody had any issue with LN ENGENIEERING RETROFIT ? DOBLE ROW ECT?

Take the car somewhere else to someone that knows what they are talking about.

There have been very few problems with the LN replacement bearings, most of which were traced to poor installation techniques. The number of installations done and still running number in the thousands; the ceramic bearing has proven itself. When LN first introduced the replacement bearing, they did recommend replacing the bearing at each clutch change, but have backed off that somewhat as the ceramic bearing has continued to show its long term strength.

As for using cheaper replacements, in this application you really do get exactly what you pay for. One domestic supplier mentioned above uses all steel single row bearings with spacers to replace double row bearings; so you end up replacing one of the strongest design bearings with one that is known to be the weakest. But you saved a few bucks. Swell.

If you have a dual row bearing car, the LN dual row replacement is the way to go. If you have a single row, going with the solid bearing "IMS Solution" would be optimal, but you could also consider the LN single row if you are on a tighter budget. In either case, go with an approved installer.

I touched on this in a post over on Pelican:

Service intervals are something that the factory should have had on this bearing from the first place. These are all mechanical systems and if we have learned anything, all mechanical systems fail. The M96 just does a better job of failing than others. Not putting a service interval on these parts would have one been foolish and also deceptive. The IMS Retrofit has always been considered a maintenance item. Only with years and millions of miles of service have we figured out that the dual row and 06-08 IMS when configured with our ceramic hybrid bearings is pretty much bulletproof and probably will never need replacing where the single rows due to their reduced load capacity will still require replacement, however at a lesser rate than a conventional bearing. I still don't know for sure how long you could run a single row IMS Retrofit's ceramic hybrid bearing - we have some units with way more than 50,000 miles that have been pulled with no wear whatsoever. We do know that if you are going to have a problem, the lower load capacity of the 6204 bearing does pre-dispose the bearing to problems we just don't see in the other bearings, be it improper installation techniques or FOD or even internal defects in the bearing that can't be detected. I'm being as real and honest as I can here.

That said, Jake and I have been developing the next generation of IMS Retrofit and the associated tools to carry out these revised procedures. Only thing in the way right now of bringing these products to market is the patent process.