tuneRS Direct Oil Feed

[HalM]

I tried a search on this forum with no luck, so pardon me if already discussed,

Just ran across the tuneRS Direct Oil Feed product for the IMS on Pelican Off Topic of all places! Be that as t may, anyone have any experience? The concept makes sense to me and the price is reasonable.

http://tunersmotorsports.com/?page_id=103

I have the non-changable IMS and this is the only thing short of Jake's Guardian that may be helpful.

[JFP in PA]

I tried a search on this forum with no luck, so pardon me if already discussed,

Just ran across the tuneRS Direct Oil Feed product for the IMS on Pelican Off Topic of all places! Be that as t may, anyone have any experience? The concept makes sense to me and the price is reasonable.

http://tunersmotorsports.com/?page_id=103

I have the non-changable IMS and this is the only thing short of Jake's Guardian that may be helpful.

While continuous lubrication of the IMS bearing appears to be an attractive idea, you need to be careful here, there are considerable differences of opinion on where you can draw oil from to lubricate the IMS without causing other potential problems. Some of these opinions are based upon several years of testing different oil source locations and evaluating their impact on other engine components as well as the IMS bearing itself (e.g.: valve train components, etc.), other opinions are based upon considerably less real world data.

Most people do not realize that the IMS bearing in the M96/97 is actually partially submerged in engine oil when the engine is not running, and that there is considerable oil volume that splashes up into the IMS area as the car goes through its normal running conditions. This is why many astute engine builders have recommended removing the rear seal on the 2005 and later engines as an option to extend the OEM bearing's life expectancy. Many owners of have followed this pathway with success.

While pushing pressurized oil seems a logical idea, over the past several years, multiple people have experimented with the idea using different sources for the oil, and running the design for prolonged periods, both on the dyno and installed in cars. Some these experiments were obvious dead ends, while others were more promising. While spraying oil directly onto the rear of the bearing should offer both cooling and lubrication, unfortunately some methods of oil supply demonstrated the law of unintended consequences of new ideas. Some resulted in more dirt and debris getting into the bearings (which is not good), as well as accelerating wear in the areas of the engine the oil is sourced from (the valve train areas of these engines are already weak in the lubrication area, which is one of the reasons that abnormal lifter wear is common in the factory engines).

Do some in depth research on this subject, and talk to the people that have done the development work before settling on the direction you choose. Just because something is new does not necessarily mean it is better...........

[HalM]

Excellent comments Jeff, thanks.

If one were to buy into the concept of the DOF, then it seems to me that the manufacturer needs to take the step of specifying the oil source and if said source may contain dirty oil, a secondary oil filter should be engineered and include.

At least that is what this IT geek thinks. :)

[JFP in PA]

Excellent comments Jeff, thanks.

If one were to buy into the concept of the DOF, then it seems to me that the manufacturer needs to take the step of specifying the oil source and if said source may contain dirty oil, a secondary oil filter should be engineered and include.

At least that is what this IT geek thinks. :)

That is actually the point of the discussion, some use "just filtered oil" while others do not. And, perhaps more importantly, where is the oil coming from, and what other component's may be suffering as the direct result.

While I do not want to encourage an online pissing contest between the designers of these systems, I do want car owners to stop and think about how these different designs function before spending their hard earned cash.......

[ppbon]

There's been a lot disinformation about the DOF whether intentional or not.
Let me clear it up, again.
The source for the DOF's oil is provided by Porsche right on the engine. We don't have to add spin-on adapters. The DOF's oil port is an M14x1.5 plug right on the engine.
Here's a diagram from Porsche showing the oil flow in the M96/M97 engine.
We've highlighted the route of the DOF flow in red to make it easier to follow:



As you can see from the diagram:
the oil flows from the oil pan (#1)
Up the pickup tube (#2)
through the main pump (#3)
through the filter (#5)
through the oil cooler (#7)
and directly to the port on the engine (DOF Adapter)

This oil is therefore filtered and cooled and does not pass over any other component in the engine where it can collect debris or other.
It does NOT come off the cams (#8 & #11) and it does not rob oil from the cams or lifters.
The oil feed comes off the oil cooler from where it's distributed to the lifters, cams and DOF each independently.
We have tested the pressure losses to one side bank and the other with and without the DOF feed and we measure less than 2 psi difference at 60 psi working pressure.
The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute, cooling the surfaces and as important properly lubricating them. The excess oil drops right back into the oil pan where it's mixed with the rest of the engine oil and goes through the system again.
There is an oil pressure regulator valve that compensates and adjusts oil pressures constantly. If you record the engine's oil pressure you'll see that it's not steady or constant it fluctuates up and down depending on what the car is doing (accelerating, braking, turning, etc.).

Our system has been duly tested in street and racecars for several years with great results using every type of common IMS bearing: OEM steel ball (single and double row) and new-style single row, aftermarket single and double row ceramic balls and aftermarket roller bearing. Our conclusion is very simple:
The bearing is not the problem, it's the lack of proper lubrication!

Also, for those who promote/rely on splash lubrication let me expand a bit here as well.

When the car has the correct amount of oil in the engine and is sitting in level ground, the IMS bearing is 25-30% immersed in engine oil.

Logical thinking would say: "Great! that's all the oil, I need!", but the truth is different.

First there's the law of Inertia. In these cars the IMS is placed front-to-back in the engine. On the Carrera, the IMS bearing is at the front, on the Boxsters and Caymans, because the engine is reversed, it's at the back.

So, when you accelerate and the oil is pushed to the back of the engine, there's no more bearing immersed in oil in the Carreras. The Boxsters do get a higher level of oil at the bearing under acceleration, but under braking it's reversed. The Carreras get more oil at the bearing, the Boxsters get none.

As you can see you can't state that the bearing is immersed. When it counts, when the engine is running that's not always the case.

Then, there's another law of physics called Centrifugal Force.

When the bearing is spinning at even 600 rpm (idle) the centrifugal force acting on the balls is such that ALL of the oil is ejected from the bearing completely and even if the car is on level ground the bearing gets no oil. Picture a full blender. When it's off the liquid is level. When you turn it on it creates a vortex where the center is drained of fluid because of centrifugal force.

The ONLY way you're going to get any oil into a spinning bearing is by injecting a constant stream under pressure to cool and lubricate it.

I hope this clears it up, if not, feel free to contact any of us and we'll offer whatever information you need to fully understand the Direct Oil Feed System for the IMS bearing in the M96/M97 engines.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Edited August 31, 2013 by ppbon

[JFP in PA]

There's been a lot disinformation about the DOF whether intentional or not.

Let me clear it up, again.

The source for the DOF's oil is provided by Porsche right on the engine. We don't have to add spin-on adapters. The DOF's oil port is an M14x1.5 plug right on the engine.

Here's a diagram from Porsche showing the oil flow in the M96/M97 engine.

We've highlighted the route of the DOF flow in red to make it easier to follow:

As you can see from the diagram:

the oil flows from the oil pan (#1)

Up the pickup tube (#2)

through the main pump (#3)

through the filter (#5)

through the oil cooler (#7)

and directly to the port on the engine (DOF Adapter)

This oil is therefore filtered and cooled and does not pass over any other component in the engine where it can collect debris or other.

It does NOT come off the cams (#8 & #11) and it does not rob oil from the cams or lifters.

The oil feed comes off the oil cooler from where it's distributed to the lifters, cams and DOF each independently.

We have tested the pressure losses to one side bank and the other with and without the DOF feed and we measure less than 2 psi difference at 60 psi working pressure.

The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute, cooling the surfaces and as important properly lubricating them. The excess oil drops right back into the oil pan where it's mixed with the rest of the engine oil and goes through the system again.

There is an oil pressure regulator valve that compensates and adjusts oil pressures constantly. If you record the engine's oil pressure you'll see that it's not steady or constant it fluctuates up and down depending on what the car is doing (accelerating, braking, turning, etc.).

Our system has been duly tested in street and racecars for several years with great results using every type of common IMS bearing: OEM steel ball (single and double row) and new-style single row, aftermarket single and double row ceramic balls and aftermarket roller bearing. Our conclusion is very simple:

The bearing is not the problem, it's the lack of proper lubrication!

Also, for those who promote/rely on splash lubrication let me expand a bit here as well.

When the car has the correct amount of oil in the engine and is sitting in level ground, the IMS bearing is 25-30% immersed in engine oil.

Logical thinking would say: "Great! that's all the oil, I need!", but the truth is different.

First there's the law of Inertia. In these cars the IMS is placed front-to-back in the engine. On the Carrera, the IMS bearing is at the front, on the Boxsters and Caymans, because the engine is reversed, it's at the back.

So, when you accelerate and the oil is pushed to the back of the engine, there's no more bearing immersed in oil in the Carreras. The Boxsters do get a higher level of oil at the bearing under acceleration, but under braking it's reversed. The Carreras get more oil at the bearing, the Boxsters get none.

As you can see you can't state that the bearing is immersed. When it counts, when the engine is running that's not always the case.

Then, there's another law of physics called Centrifugal Force.

When the bearing is spinning at even 600 rpm (idle) the centrifugal force acting on the balls is such that ALL of the oil is ejected from the bearing completely and even if the car is on level ground the bearing gets no oil. Picture a full blender. When it's off the liquid is level. When you turn it on it creates a vortex where the center is drained of fluid because of centrifugal force.

The ONLY way you're going to get any oil into a spinning bearing is by injecting a constant stream under pressure to cool and lubricate it.

I hope this clears it up, if not, feel free to contact any of us and we'll offer whatever information you need to fully understand the Direct Oil Feed System for the IMS bearing in the M96/M97 engines.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

Pedro, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't your flow diagram show the oil to the DOF adaptor passing through the oil galleys on one cylinder bank before it reaches the adaptor in the lower portion of your diagram?

[ppbon]

Pedro, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't your flow diagram show the oil to the DOF adaptor passing through the oil galleys on one cylinder bank before it reaches the adaptor in the lower portion of your diagram?

JFP:

It's not as clear on the diagram as on the engine itself where you can actually see the different diameters of the galleys and follow their path from the oil pump to the filter to the heat exchanger to the main galley o the DOF.

I'm preparing a set of photos where I'll highlight the passage of the oil in the galleys using Photoshop but it will be tomorrow or Monday.

The port used for the DOF is fed by the main oil galley and is not shared by any other secondary system.

The only branch-off is to two of the cam's beds but they are also fed from the other side through the inside of the cams.

The diameter of the DOF's injector is smaller than that for the cam beds so its a very low volume of oil

Since its fed from the main oil galley the pressure regulator would adjust accordingly.

On some of our race cars we have also used the oil cooler delete plate as a feed point for the DOF since is easier to service because there's more room once the coolant/oil heat exchanger is removed and we add an external oil cooler.

We have measured oil pressures on these race cars runnind with DOF and compared to street cars with and without DOF and there is no difference.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

[ppbon]

Thanks to Johan for reminding me I owed you some photos.

I thought it would be easier with photos of the engine block and heads, but it's even harder because we're looking at different parts that stack one over the other and the oil galleys connect in three dimensions.

But let's try.

The first image shows one side of the engine block looking from underneath.

You can see the three cylinders.

I've highlighted the main galley that carries oil, directly from the filter and the oil cooler.

The second image shows the head that goes over the cylinders. You can see the valves for two cylinders.

In the circle you can note where the oil flow is split.

The third image is an enlargement of the detail in the second image.

You can see three courses for the oil to flow.

The two on the bottom go to lubricate the beds of the cams, although the cams are also hollow and receive oil from another source as well to keep the beds lubricated.

The larger hole is where the DOF takes the oil for the IMS bearing on the top side.

The final image shows the bed of the cam with the small hole in the center that keeps the bed lubricated.

The important point I want to make with these photos is that the oil feed for the DOF in no way hurts any of the components that are also lubricated by the same galley. You can see how the galley opens up where more oil is required and it's certainly larger at that point. The oil flow is also controlled by the pressure regulator that allows for more or less volume as needed.

Also, the DOF only uses 400 ml/min @ 60 psi which is a minimal amount compared to what the pump sends into the engine.

We have now sold/installed several hundred DOFs that have gone into all mode years from '97 through '08 and no one has had a problem or issue due to oil flow.

If you have any other questions, feel free to post them here or contact me directly.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

[JFP in PA]

The oil flow is also controlled by the pressure regulator that allows for more or less volume as needed.

Pedro, thanks for the clarifying photos. Quick question: The pressure regulator you are referring to is the factory unit in the oil pump, or does the system use and independent regulator to control the flow going to the IMS bearing?

[ppbon]

The pressure regulator I refer to is the factory unit at the pump.

We control flow with the size of the cross section of the oil injector and another restrictor on the oil line adapter that screws into the engine head.

At 60 psi we get an oil flow into the IMS bearing of 400 ml/min.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

[JFP in PA]

The pressure regulator I refer to is the factory unit at the pump.

We control flow with the size of the cross section of the oil injector and another restrictor on the oil line adapter that screws into the engine head.

At 60 psi we get an oil flow into the IMS bearing of 400 ml/min.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

Thanks for the clarification.

[Y2K911]

Pedro, in your 1st post, you stated: "The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute".

In your last post, you state: "At 60 psi we get an oil flow into the IMS bearing of 400 ml/min.".

Unless you are talking about 2 different things, which one is it or is the 1 litre of oil/min., the max amount you have witnessed?

Martin

[Richard Hamilton]

There could easily be that variation depending on the oil temperature.

[Y2K911]

Plausible, Richard and frankly I did not think of temp effect, thanks ... but that much variation due to temp?

[Richard Hamilton]

The kinematic viscosity of Mobil 1 0W-40 reduces by over 5 times between 40degreesC and 100degreesC. I'm no tribologist, but it wouldn't surprise me if the flow through a fixed orifice went from 400ml to 1000ml per minute. I think the direct feed is probably a good idea, but it seems to me that the theory is empirical rather than scientific. I don't know the oil pump flow, but a litre per minute sounds like a lot to me. But then again, The Ark was an amateur, and professionals built the Titanic. ;o)

Ref:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

[ppbon]

Pedro, in your 1st post, you stated: "The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute".

In your last post, you state: "At 60 psi we get an oil flow into the IMS bearing of 400 ml/min.".

Unless you are talking about 2 different things, which one is it or is the 1 litre of oil/min., the max amount you have witnessed?

Martin

Good eyes!

There's a point where more oil does no more good and we kept searching for the perfect amount into the bearing.

Working with three different bearing manufacturers the consensus was reached that 300 - 500 ml/min was optimal, so we split the difference and went with 400 ml/min at 60 psi.

We changed the size of the restrictor to accommodate for the new flow. That's why you saw the two numbers.

This measurement was done using Mobil1 10W40 at 200F and 60 psi.

When cruising, 60 psi is about average.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

[Y2K911]

Thanks Pedro! ... and Maurice!

[Y2K911]

Oops ... meant thanks Richard!

[Bimmerbenz]

Where are these DOF Made? china? japan? eeuu?

Have somebody installed them? can somebody give some feedback ?

Im in between the LN eng or this DOF TUNERS for my 99 doble row, but don't know which one should i buy.

[alw911@ashburnva.net]

Another question is can this DOF kit be install on cars currently with an LN kit?

[1schoir]

Another question is can this DOF kit be install on cars currently with an LN kit?

It can be installed on cars with the LN Engineering IMS ceramic bearing, the original OEM bearing, a replacement OEM bearing, the Pelican parts replacement bearing, etc...

Regards, Maurice.

[TuneRS Motorsports]

One of the questions here that has gone unanswered is in regards to where the DOF is made. All components of our Direct Oil Feed kit are proudly manufactured in the USA and we offer a 2 year manufacturers defect warranty on all parts.

Edited October 14, 2013 by TuneRS Motorsports

[ggilligan]

Pedro, in your 1st post, you stated: "The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute".

In your last post, you state: "At 60 psi we get an oil flow into the IMS bearing of 400 ml/min.".

Unless you are talking about 2 different things, which one is it or is the 1 litre of oil/min., the max amount you have witnessed?

Martin

Good eyes!

There's a point where more oil does no more good and we kept searching for the perfect amount into the bearing.

Working with three different bearing manufacturers the consensus was reached that 300 - 500 ml/min was optimal, so we split the difference and went with 400 ml/min at 60 psi.

We changed the size of the restrictor to accommodate for the new flow. That's why you saw the two numbers.

This measurement was done using Mobil1 10W40 at 200F and 60 psi.

When cruising, 60 psi is about average.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro

[ggilligan]

Pedro:

You mention Mobil 1 in a grade of 10W-40W. I didn't know that Mobil 1 was available in that grade except for a motorcycle application. If Mobil 1 is available in a 10/40 what is your source or do you use the motorcyle oil? Thanks for the information on the above topic. Very informative!!

George

[ppbon]

Where are these DOF Made? china? japan? eeuu?

Have somebody installed them? can somebody give some feedback ?

Im in between the LN eng or this DOF TUNERS for my 99 doble row, but don't know which one should i buy.

Another question is can this DOF kit be install on cars currently with an LN kit?

All of the Direct Oil Feed parts were proudly developed, tested and manufactured in the USA.

The DOF will work on ANY bearing installed on the IMS, including the LNE ceramic bearing.

As a supplement to the DOF you can order a new steel or ceramic ball bearing in single or double row configuration.

Happy Porscheing,

Pedro