Coolant Pipes Litigation Update!

[scubatahiti]

I was quoted $2000 ($2,400 if they need to replace the T's) by Porsche North Scottsdale so they must have lowered their price. Doing this before they break is better than waiting for them to break and having the expense double in my opinion. They are also giving me a loaner car for 3 days while they do it. So in the end i can get out of there for around $1,600 i am happy considering the price i paid for the car 2 weeks ago. I know this issue had a major impact on the resale value of the vehicle. I guess only time will tell once this passes.

[deilenberger]

Got my notice yesterday. Since I bought 04 turbo used and am now at 97,000 miles....I would get $375 towards a dealer installed replacement. That is not a settlement that is another rip off. The aluminum pipes alone cost $1000.

There are quite a few vendors selling a complete kit (pipes, gaskets, replacement hoses, etc.) to do the job for less than $500. Some even include the antifreeze. If your dealer is charging $1,000 for just the pipes, I'd RUN-AWAY, RUN-AWAY..

Of course you can always exclude yourself from the class-settlement - directions on doing that are right there on the forms, then go after Porsche yourself..

Edited December 18, 2013 by deilenberger

[Cayenne Turbo Gal]

I was quoted $2500.00 by my local dealer to replace the tubes. I do not know that my tubes have cracked yet; however, I suspect they have since I have put almost a gallon of antifreeze in her in less than 3 weeks. Like some others here, I have higher mileage so I "may" be able to receive $375.00 back for the replacements.

I have owned my Cayenne for just over one year and in that time I have had to make several repairs to her. As a matter of fact, she's in the shop now for her second round of A/C issues and on a recent trip up north, the park assist sensors decided to take a nose dive. The module had to be replaced and now the shop cannot get it to flash. For the amount of money I have put into her, I could have bought a newer model or even a brand new Cayenne. I love my Porsche, but these constant repairs have to stop! Is it possible to have a cursed vehicle? :eek:

[scubatahiti]

Porsche changed the process, if you take your Cayenne to the stealership they now discount the price of the replacement by the amount that you would have gotten if you had it done and sent the paperwork in. I had mine done and walked away with a $1,500 bill with brand new pipes on my 04 Cayenne. I did this as i just purchased the car for 21K and it is like new with only 36 K miles on it so the peace of mind was well worth it. I love this CTT as it is just a flat out beast!!!!

[PSDog]

the settlement says you get more if you bought your car from an ACPO warranty dealer. Can anyone enlighten me on why this would be the case? The difference is significant. And has anyone had any luck in small claims court against PCNA for either this or other Cayenne repairs?

Ignited - I am with you on this one. I do not understand the rationale for prorating the settlement based on mileage for owners of new/ACPO vehicles but only offering 25% of repair costs for owners of other class vehicles regardless of mileage (subject to a 120k mile max). In my case, even though the original warranty was still in effect at the time of purchase, I would receive $600 less because I purchased from a non-Porsche dealer.

I called the settlement adminstrator but she referred me to PCNA. Anybody else find this inequitable or have any insight on the settlement terms?

[RacerX5]

So there is no settlement if you take the car to an independent mechanic or do the job yourself?

[Nylon]

If you do it yourself or indie your out it looks like. Their settlement doesn't even cover cost of part. Much less the big buck install at dealer. This really is not a settlement in my opinion. It's lip service and it still costs you...now or later and worse if it leaves you stranded in the boonies.

[scubatahiti]

I think the perspective on this changes if you look at what you paid for the vehicle. If you purchased the vehicle from a individual the taxes you save alone and dealership over head more than pays for the replacement of these.

Doing this your self is a valid option considering you can get the parts for around $600. It then comes down to how much is the hassle worth to you to do it and if you do miss something what is the resulting impact vs taking it to Porsche and having it done. I got quotes from 3 places for this Job. Scottsdale Porsche $1985 (According to the service advisor that is the Warranty Price), Sun Valley Imports $2700, iAutohaus $2100. Neither Sun Valley nor iAutohaus could offer the $375 settlement or a free loaner car so you can see why I went with Porsche

Porsche had my Cayenne for almost a week. I believe they do the job over several days to test things out (drive the car, let it sit over night and top off coolant) You are also covered if something happens with the system after that so there is the peace of mind aspect as well.

I made the decision to take that route as the cost differential of $900 was really worth the 8-12 hours of being under the hood and the insurance you get if something goes wrong. These are not cheap vehicles to own but the driving experience is well worth the extra cost. Having a Lexus, Mercedes or even a Audi (SUV) is no comparison and the CTT is really in a class of its own. The only one that compares is the Touareg V8 and I have one of those (well it is my daughters). They don't have the coolant pipe issue but still it is not a Porsche.

You could always opt out of the settlement and go after them your self if you want to deal with that hassle. Again is it really worth the time to do so. It would be interesting to see if anyone has done that with any success. For me I am done with this issue as I have signed the settlement.

[PSDog]

I think the perspective on this changes if you look at what you paid for the vehicle. If you purchased the vehicle from a individual the taxes you save alone and dealership over head more than pays for the replacement of these.

Doubtful, and I certainly did not save enough to pay for a new drive shaft and transmision repair - a couple of other problems that should have been subject to a recall. I loved the car but the '05 and earlier models clearly have some design issues.

.

[scubatahiti]

Well from my perspective it was and that is what I was stating. The sales tax i did not have to pay from a private sale more than paid for replacing the pipes.

In Arizona, a $21,000 sales price at 9.2% tax would have cost an additional $1,932....I paid $1,585 to replace the pipes. When I was looking to purchase a cayenne there were several 04's and 05's for sale from dealers and private sellers. I will compare the 2 closest ones in terms of miles / condition / model.

CraigList individual seller 2004 CTT 36K miles asking price $23,900 --- this is the one I purchased

Scottsdale Porsche 2005 CTT 65K miles asking price $28,000 --- Not sure if the pipes had been replaced, most likely yes.

If i had even negotiated the same deal from the Dealer vs the private seller i would have paid about $24,600 Add Tax, Doc Feed of $600, Several other misc Dealer Charges $400 and Tax $2,263 thats is a additional expense of $3,263. So not only was i looking at a higher mileage vehicle and a total price differential of $6,873 for the individual vs the Dealer. So adding my $1585 expense would have been a differential of about $5,300.

I have not experience the failure of the drive shaft and transmission yet. If I do some time down the road at least i know I have $5,300 in the bank to cover the differential.

[PKN]

I have already been contacted and have to submit the claim (parts and labor) by this time next year. They are offering 25% of the cost and that is prorated by the mileage on the car. As I did the work myself, I can only claim 25% of the value of the parts. I suspect the lawyers will do better out of this than we will

Steve

[gh0stman]

Its a shame that they dont send checks out to folks that can prove that they either have had the work done, or will be needing it done. I called my local dealer and they told me that parts alone will run 902.09. Evidently there is an "update", as they put it, that needs to happen that they were very secretive about. You would think that if they still wanted to make cars/money, they would treat the folks that bought the "vehicle that saved porsche" from the can a tad better.

Edited February 1, 2014 by gh0stman

[gllever]

This settlement is a joke, read the fine print of the settlement and you will find that after you take the mileage and age into consideration , and if you can find your receipts not much there. The lawyers are the only ones that made out.

[Doohan]

Got my notice yesterday. Since I bought 04 turbo used and am now at 97,000 miles....I would get $375 towards a dealer installed replacement. That is not a settlement that is another rip off. The aluminum pipes alone cost $1000.

There are quite a few vendors selling a complete kit (pipes, gaskets, replacement hoses, etc.) to do the job for less than $500. Some even include the antifreeze. If your dealer is charging $1,000 for just the pipes, I'd RUN-AWAY, RUN-AWAY..

Of course you can always exclude yourself from the class-settlement - directions on doing that are right there on the forms, then go after Porsche yourself..

Can you please tell me wich vendors are selling the complete kit for 500$, I've sent the letter for the settlement but my Cayenne now is loosing a inch of coolant each week, I'll probably do the job by myself...

[Pkscheldt]

This is one I found:

http://www.eagleday.com/cayenne-v8-955-coolant-pipe-repair-kit.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=19600381160

[Doohan]

Great! Do I need other sealants or special tools? Am I forced to use the Porsche Coolant?

[Doohan]

I've found that the ECS Kit is more complete:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Porsche-2004-Cayenne-955-S-Sport_Utility-V8_4.5L/Engine/Cooling/ES2501060/

[Nylon]

You do not need to use Porsche Coolant but it is Pentosen coolant. It needs to be done but if you read the print on the class action there will be no $350. They only give that if its installed by a dealer and the dealer will eat that token and give it all back to PNA.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/38388-coolant-pipe-replacement-detailed-instructions/

http://www.renntech.org/forums/tutorials/article/329-cayenne-turbo-brass-t-pipe-mod/

[Doohan]

No pain for a 75c letter... but I took all the parts plus some extras like plugs, polybelt and tools at ECS for 850$ with tax and this hurts a little bit more...

[btmansfi]

Hello everyone.  Just joined the forum today as we purchased our first Porsche.  We purchased a 2004 Cayenne Turbo with 89,000 miles on it for $13,000.  Seems like a pretty good deal to me (it's going to be the wife's car, unfortunately!).  The previous owner had replace the transmission valve body about 5,000 miles ago which he said cost him just shy of $6,000.  He provided the paperwork and warranty, and he wasn't lying.  He also had recently taken care of the brake boost issue.  He was the 3rd owner and unsure if the coolant pipes had been replaced yet, so I will have to take a look this evening to see.  

 

I did my research before buying the vehicle and read up on the coolant pipe issue.  I am fairly mechanically inclined so it doesn't worry me if the pipe needs to be replaced.  The parts are $500 or so and from what I've seen it can be tackled by a novice car owner with the proper tools and patience.  What I was surprised at is how much dealers and independent shops charge for the repair.  I thought I would get some quotes since it looks like the Class Action suit (more displeasure with that in a minute) would reimburse me $375 if I took it to a Porsche dealer.  I called Checkered Flag Porsche in Virginia Beach and they quoted me $2,800.  That seems outrageous to me, so I decided to call an independent shop which I would think would definitely be no more than that.  The guy told me "3 to 5" and I was thinking maybe he was going to say $300-$500 labor, plus parts.  Nope, 3 to 5 grand!  

 

Needless to say, I will be doing this myself.  Even at dealer prices the parts are $700-$800 max.  How would someone possibly charge $2,200 to $4,200 in labor to fix something that requires no more than 10 hours labor?  If mechanics are making $280 - $480 an hour, I'm leaving my job in corporate finance and turning wrenches for a living.

 

Back to the Class Action suit.  It's for all intents and purposes a huge slap in the face.  The most that anyone can receive under this is $1,800.  Realistically, I would bet the average that PCNA will pay out per claimant is more like $500.  The attorney's are getting $4.5M.  So at least 9,000 Cayenne owners will have to (1) know about the claim; (2) submit a claim; and (3) be eligible to receive a benefit before the payout by PCNA will be greater than what the attorneys are getting.  Seems ridiculous to me.  I knew this before buying the vehicle so I can only complain so much, but had I bought the vehicle new I would be fuming right now.

[deilenberger]

Back to the Class Action suit.  It's for all intents and purposes a huge slap in the face.  The most that anyone can receive under this is $1,800.  Realistically, I would bet the average that PCNA will pay out per claimant is more like $500.  The attorney's are getting $4.5M.  So at least 9,000 Cayenne owners will have to (1) know about the claim; (2) submit a claim; and (3) be eligible to receive a benefit before the payout by PCNA will be greater than what the attorneys are getting.  Seems ridiculous to me.  I knew this before buying the vehicle so I can only complain so much, but had I bought the vehicle new I would be fuming right now.

 

That's true of almost every class-action lawsuit I've seen. Claimants get pennies - the lawyers for the defendant and the claimants make a fortune. There is basically something wrong with the class-action laws in the US, and the judges who award the silly lawyer fees.

[WhisperBlade]

I got 25% - About 400$ back. Settled in Canada. 

[deilenberger]

BTW - just curious - has anyone in the US actually collected on the class-action settlement?  Buhler?

Edited November 7, 2014 by deilenberger

[rbaron]

BTW - just curious - has anyone in the US actually collected on the class-action settlement?  Buhler?

 

As a matter of professional curiosity I've been following the progress of the court case for a little while now.  The United States District Judge in Ohio who was assigned to hear this case (under the rules of what is called Multi-District Litigation) approved - after a full hearing - the proposed settlement last spring.  Despite notice having been given to many thousands of potential class members there was only one objector at the hearing: a lawyer from Idaho who was and is, to put it mildly, extremely pissed off at her local dear and everyone and everything upstream to and including PCNA and Porsche AG.  The District Judge heard her out and approved the settlement.  He made many findings against her arguments that I won't go into here but they are available online (for a government imposed fee if you have a PACER account).  She then filed an appeal with the appropriate Circuit Court of Appeals.  Because the appeal is pending the settlement  funds cannot be paid out to the thousands who filed (or may still file)  timely claims. Likewise the class lawyers cannot be reimbursed for their likely hundreds of thousands of dollars advanced on behalf of the class members on a very contingent basis.  (As an aside, whether the US courts have jurisdiction over Porsche AG is an unsettled question as I understand it, which made the case very risky for the plaintiffs' lawyers.)

 

And yes, I'm a lawyer, and yes, I am a class member.  I bought a CS new in '04, I still own it, the pipes failed in the summer of 2013 and I paid the local deal around $2000 give or take to repair the mess.  Because my car was/is low mileage I expect to recover around $1100 IIRC.  But only when due process has been done.

 

In my practice I try to help people who've been wronged.  I only recover costs and get paid a fee if I win, and I advance the costs, which can be very very high. So I'd suggest we go easy on the lawyer class.  You never know when you might need a good one.

 

<rant off>

 

--Lawyer Bob

[deilenberger]

Lawyer Bob,

 

I have no doubt you're a great lawyer, and there are other great lawyers.. but when I see a lawyers fee of $4,500,000 (which I believe is what the class action law firm in this settlement gets) vs their expenses (which are also being paid) of $250,000 - well, it appears fee is excessive.. That irks me.  If this was being handled on a normal contingency basis - the law firms would be entitled to 1/3rd of the settlement and expenses, which to me sounds like a fair return.  These sort of fee awards do nothing to advance the feeling of trust the average person has in the law profession. Speaking as a non-member of the lawyer class.

 

As far as US courts having jurisdiction over Porsche AG - they certainly have jurisdiction over Porsche North America, so there was a safe target they could go after.

 

BTW - thanks for this surfacing again. I just dug out my paperwork and see I have about a month to get the claim in. Have to do that tomorrow.

Edited November 8, 2014 by deilenberger