Ceramic Hybrid Bearing Choices for DIY IMSB Retrofit

[318touring]

Good points, from a quick phone conversation their advise was not to touch it if it isn't misbehaving.

PM me when you're next in Wellington (coolest little capital in the world).

Edited April 10, 2013 by 318touring

[krazyk]

The bearing install is easy but one of the most important things is qualifing the engine for retrofit in the first place. Im currently working on sourcing another USA made single row ceramic hybrid bearing at a much lower cost than the LNE bearing kit. I have learned people are very touchy about this subject and resist any new input.

Edited January 31, 2014 by krazyk

[JFP in PA]

The bearing install is easy but one of the most important things is qualifing the engine for retrofit in the first place. Im currently working on sourcing another USA made single row ceramic hybrid bearing at a much lower cost than the LNE bearing kit. I have learned people are very touchy about this suject and resist any new input.

Just be aware that the bearings that LN sells are made to their specification's with specific cage materials, etc. Jake and LN learned a lot about what works, and what doesn't, and even hired a bearing engineer to help them when they were doing the R&D on their ceramic bearing, so sourcing an "off the shelf" look alike may not end up being the same. Others have tried this route before, one even posted about their low cost alternative on multiple websites, including this one; and then promptly disappeared after installations went catastrophically wrong.

While Jake may come across as a bit mercurial for some tastes, he has done his homework; the installed base for the LN ceramic hybrids, now in the tens of thousands, speaks for itself. Add in their new dual row ceramic replacement for the OEM single row bearing, with patent protection, and it is going to be difficult to try and be price competitive, particularly when buyer's realize they are making a nearly $20K bet on whatever bearing they choose.......

[krazyk]

I certainly understand where Jakes coming from but does everyone realize that the OEM SR bearing is indeed an "off the shelf" $12 bearing. Some seem to last and some dont. Those that dont can usually be explained. I would imagine installing the OEM type SR bearing without the seals would work just fine.

I decided to install a Bocca CH SR bearing without the seals. When I drop the engine again later this year, I will check this bearing and probably replace it with the US made CH.

If one chooses to look and do the research, there are many "off the shelf" CH SR bearings that far exceed the specs of the OEM SR bearing. If I remember correctly the LNE bearing is made by Timken.

Edited January 31, 2014 by krazyk

[JFP in PA]

I certainly understand where Jakes coming from but does everyone realize that the OEM SR bearing is indeed an "off the shelf" $12 bearing. Some seem to last and some dont. Those that dont can usually be explained. I would imagine installing the OEM type SR bearing without the seals would work just fine.

If one chooses to look and do the research, there are many "off the shelf" CH SR bearings that far exceed the specs of the OEM SR bearing. If I remember correctly the LNE bearing is made by Timken.

I'm not all that sure that removing both seals is a good idea as it could flood the shaft unnecessarily. The LN kits all have seals facing the shaft side, and the IMS Solution uses a pressed in plug to seal the shaft from oil as well.

As for using COTS bearings, knowing more than a bit about the effort and trial and error that went into the LN designs, I would really caution anyone going that route, you are potentially playing a form of "Russian roulette" in an attempt to save a few bucks. It simply ain't worth it unless you have a lot of disposable income you are willing to commit to your cost savings efforts.....................but in the end, it is your car and your money.

[krazyk]

After researching everything I could possibly find about IMSB issues, my theory behind not using seals at all is because of a few known facts:

It seems every IMSB that has been inspected has had oil go through the seals into the tube.

Oil allowed to freely (no seals) go through, in, and out of the bearing as engine conditions change (oil level, temp, etc.) cant possibly harm the bearing but will in fact keep it better lubed.

Sealing the tube with an expansion plug still poses the risk of creating differences in pressure.

Sealing the tube by using the bearing seal on the tube side only is completely useless because hot oil will compromise that single seal just as it does the dual sealed version.

The seals are designed to protect against dust and dirt not hot oil.

Alleged debri protection afforded by the seal(s) is a baseless argument because LNE doesnt use a seal on the flywheel side anyway.

You are certainly correct. Its each owners choice to decide. I would like to hear anyones theory as to why the tube must be plugged.

Edited January 31, 2014 by krazyk

[JFP in PA]

After researching everything I could possibly find about IMSB issues, my theory behind not using seals at all is because of a few known facts:

It seems every IMSB that has been inspected has had oil go through the seals into the tube.

Oil allowed to freely (no seals) go through, in, and out of the bearing as engine conditions change (oil level, temp, etc.) cant possibly harm the bearing but will in fact keep it better lubed.

Sealing the tube with an expansion plug still poses the risk of creating differences in pressure.

Sealing the tube by using the bearing seal on the tube side only is completely useless because hot oil will compromise that single seal just as it does the dual sealed version.

The seals are designed to protect against dust and dirt not hot oil.

Alleged debri protection afforded by the seal(s) is a baseless argument because LNE doesnt use a seal on the flywheel side anyway.

You are certainly correct. Its each owners choice to decide. I would like to hear anyones theory as to why the tube must be plugged.

I would fully agree that OEM bearings with failed seals have oil in the shaft, but at the same time I personally have not seen a used LN bearing allow oil to leak into the shaft to any great degree. Add to the fact that Raby has commented against allowing oil intrusion into the shaft as well (no, I do not have a web quote to refer to, you would need to research that one), and he also specifically puts plugs into the shaft to stop oil intrusion on his engines, so he must have a valid reason to block the oil movement. I'd suggest you refer questions about why to him directly.

As for the shaft pressurizing, I don't see that happening as the result of the way the oil pump is driven by the shaft at the other end; it is not really sealed, so I don't see how it can become pressurized.

As for oil compromising the oil seals, while that may be true of the OEM seals, I do not believe the LN units use the same seal materials as the OEM bearings, but I also do not know how theirs are different from the OEM seals.

I completely do not understand your comment on debris protection afforded by the seals; I have never made any comment on that.

[krazyk]

I completely do not understand your comment on debris protection afforded by the seals; I have never made any comment on that.

Not you, sorry. Many others gave me giref about "debri" on another forum for my theories. I appreciate and read everything here you guys post.

I think Jake is careful to say too much about his research but I hope he goes into detail in his new book.

[JFP in PA]

I completely do not understand your comment on debris protection afforded by the seals; I have never made any comment on that.

Not you, sorry. Many others gave me giref about "debri" on another forum for my theories. I appreciate and read everything here you guys post.

I think Jake is careful to say too much about his research but I hope he goes into detail in his new book.

He got into a discussion specifically on oil intrusion into the shaft with someone that was looking at creating his own version of the DOF system, which I think took place on the 986 forum website. In any case, he was obviously opposed to allowing oil to collect inside the shaft.