Engine rebuild and P1539 and P1324

[phil53chevy]

1999, M92, 3.6 (Land N nickies),carreera cab-

Just got the old girl running and am getting P1539-camshaft adjustment bank 2 and p1324 timing chain out of position bank 2,

also o2 sensors which i have ordered.

I am positive i had the cam chains and dots on cam lined up but the canm sensor wire on the 4-6 (bank2) was broken and had to solder three wires back together.Could the soldering job be interfering with the signal (too much resistence) or is my timing most likely off? I dont have a durametric so I am kind of reaching here.

[Loren]

Why not just clear the codes and then re-test. See if they come back.

[phil53chevy]

yep, did that. these are the codes I am now getting.

P0131, O2 sensor , bank 1 sensor 1, low voltage (ordered new O2s)

P0157, O2 sensor , bank 2 sensor 2, low voltage (ordered new O2s)

P1539, camshaft adjustment bank 2

P1324, timing chain out of position , bank 2

Could actuator be faulty, checked cylinoids before reinstall with 12 volts, they were ok.

Timing or cam wires really concern me. I think i will purchase new cam sensor plug for piece of mind, replace the two bad oxygen sensors and recheck codes

how did you break in your rebuilt motor ? I have heard putting a load ( i.e. hills) is the best way to seat the rings.

[Loren]

Check for damage to the harness and connectors - these are all part of the engine harness and easy to pinch when installing.

Breaking in a new engine (or rebuilt) is the same as a new car break in. Follow the owners manual.

[phil53chevy]

thanks loren, i'll start with the cam sensor plug.

[phil53chevy]

checked all the connectors, cam sensor on bank 2 was ok. dissconnected cam sensor and immedialtely it gave me the bank 2 cam sensor fault. so i pulled the valve cover on bank 2 with the previous 1324 and 1539 codes to check cam allocation and was right on. 8 links correct (see attached) ? exhaust cam "notch" on IMS chain side facing crankase and other end mark facing straight up and down and right on the head/cover seam.

Could the cylinoid or variocam actuator give me these two faults. I bought the car with intermix and am wondering how much water snot went throught the actuator(s).

stumped.

[logray]

Congrats on getting it back together, sorry to hear it is out again...

Your cam to cam allocation looks correct. Have a look at this to verify:

from (http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/16-ENGINE-Camshaft_Swap_and_Chain_Tensioner/16-ENGINE-Camshaft_Swap_and_Chain_Tensioner.htm)

How is your bank 1 to bank 2 allocation? Have a look here:

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/26418-diy-setting-cam-timing-m96.html

If your cam to cam is correct and your bank 1 to bank 2 is correct then you are dealing with a sensor or wiring problem (unlikely DME).

IIRC you can unplug cam 2 sensor and then the bank 1 sensor and TDC from the flywheel will sensor will take over and apply (default) ignition timing for bank 2 on a USA car based on readings from bank 1 and tdc, of course it will throw a code. But that doesn't mean mechanical timing is correct from bank to bank (of course, ROW cars have no bank 2 sensor)

Did it sound OK if you fired it up? Because if the timing was way off you could have misfires and valve/piston contact and it would run like crap.

exhaust cam "notch" on IMS chain side facing crankase and other end mark facing straight up and down and right on the head/cover seam.

See the link above on how to correctly set bank to bank timing, the answer to your question depends on which TDC you are at, bank 1 or bank 2.... interference design.

Could the cylinoid or variocam actuator give me these two faults. I bought the car with intermix and am wondering how much water snot went throught the actuator(s).

Perhaps, if a variocam valve is stuck open or closed it might adjust timing, but I would tend to think you should have a variocam error as well since the DME can sense if it has trouble with the cam solenoid/actuator activation/interaction. Did you clean/flush the actuators?

Edited December 15, 2012 by logray

[phil53chevy]

Congrats on getting it back together, sorry to hear it is out again...

Your cam to cam allocation looks correct. Have a look at this to verify:

from (http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/16-ENGINE-Camshaft_Swap_and_Chain_Tensioner/16-ENGINE-Camshaft_Swap_and_Chain_Tensioner.htm)

How is your bank 1 to bank 2 allocation? Have a look here:

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/26418-diy-setting-cam-timing-m96.html

If your cam to cam is correct and your bank 1 to bank 2 is correct then you are dealing with a sensor or wiring problem (unlikely DME).

the car sat in New jersey for at least 6 months and 8 months here in VA after I bought it and saved for all the parts. I have had rodents eat wiring on a Knock sensor before( honda) so it is plausable. engine and tranny went in like butter, took my time, did'nt slam any wires in to the chassis. cam to cam is correct. compression bank 1, exhaust notch facing cover, rotate 360 to tdc compression stroke bank 2, cylinder 4, exhaust notch facing crankcase. rotated the assembly on the engine stand multiple times to check timing and allocation.

IIRC you can unplug cam 2 sensor and then the bank 1 sensor and TDC from the flywheel will sensor will take over and apply (default) ignition timing for bank 2 on a USA car based on readings from bank 1 and tdc, of course it will throw a code. But that doesn't mean mechanical timing is correct from bank to bank (of course, ROW cars have no bank 2 sensor)

Did it sound OK if you fired it up? Because if the timing was way off you could have misfires and valve/piston contact and it would run like crap.

sounded and ran great. but threw the 1539 and 1324. now getting thsoe and missfire bank 1 cyl 1,2 3, and emmissions 1,2,3, and now running crappy. concerned about old coils.OR WIRING ???

exhaust cam "notch" on IMS chain side facing crankase and other end mark facing straight up and down and right on the head/cover seam.

See the link above on how to correctly set bank to bank timing, the answer to your question depends on which TDC you are at, bank 1 or bank 2.... interference design.

yes, set per the Porsche shop manual after reading aand rereading 20 times AND with lap top in garage as I went along.

Could the cylinoid or variocam actuator give me these two faults. I bought the car with intermix and am wondering how much water snot went throught the actuator(s).

Perhaps, if a variocam valve is stuck open or closed it might adjust timing, but I would tend to think you should have a variocam error as well since the DME can sense if it has trouble with the cam solenoid/actuator activation/interaction. Did you clean/flush the actuators?

no variocam error, flushed with some clean oil and parts cleaner. looks like it has a check valve of some sort. how would you clean.

[phil53chevy]

Didn't take the engine out, just bank 2 cover, it bleeds all over the place and wanted to avoid coolant mess.I dont think it is mechanical and not sure if my generic code reader is going to help me. Only way to check all the wiring is to pull it again but when it went together all the wiring "looked" ok.

could bank 2 wiring issue cause bank 1 missfires? should I recheck bank 1 allocation by pulling the green cam caps or will I need to pull cover and physically inspect cam allocation ? I was very careful when i put this thing together and really had no problems other than broken bank 1 cam sensor bolt, that i retrieved and put in new bolt.

[phil53chevy]

Just a thought, I soldered the three broken cam sensor wires on bank 2 as they were orriented on the bank 1 cam sensor side.Now if this wiring is incorrect, by error or whatever, or a buggered solder jod, could this potentially cause my problems ? I was actually surprised at how "not difficult" it was to get to the back a/c bolt. air tools are a wonderful thing !!

[dcdrechsel]

The fact that bank 1 is now acting up suggests that something slipped .There was a similiar case on another forum where the IMS sprocket had slipped .Maybe a false alarm but it might be wise to recheck all cam timing -the odds are in your favor that you have the cam to cam chains right .The other remote possibility is that the cam timing ring bank 2 is bent -(not sure the proper name ).

Once you decipher the shop manual these engines are pretty easy time .

[phil53chevy]

yes, saw the bent cam timing ring issue with "dharn" a few years back. My IMS was sent to LN and they inserted the new bearing and sent the kit to me. Are you saying it could have slipped after they did their work? wouldn't this show up when I recheck the cam allocation? My hall sensor pickup on intake cam was straight as an arrow and I was sure not to drop my cam on the floor off of the bench when I was reassembling ; )

[logray]

As dcd points out yes if you bent the timing "prong/tang" on the end of the camshaft it will read as bad cam timing no matter what. It's the little arm on the end of the camshaft that the cam sensor reads (hall sensor effect), and if it was bent that could cause a problem with reading of timing (although engine should still run OK). However that shouldn't cause a misfire, as far as I know.

The IMS tube does not have any timing tabs/prongs on it. If LNE had your tube it is very unlikely the IMS tube sprocket slipped, ESPECIALLY if yours is/was an early dual row.

A bad solder job on cam sensors would just show as, well probably bad cam sensor or bad timing on that side. If you unplug the cam sensor (make sure the wires are not shorted) and the engine still runs like crap even though it is timed mechanically 100% right, then you might just have a bad actuator that is stuck and timing is advanced by 25 degrees.

I would go back to validating and triple checking the cam timing between banks. You don't want to run the engine if the mechancial timing is wrong (not the cam to cam allocation even though that is also critical, but the overall engine timing, bad cam to cam timing will show up when you go through the full timing recheck procedure). Here is the link again below, it really spells it out better than the workshop manual if you ask me (but the workshop manual does work OK if you read step by step and don't skip anything like turning the engine 360 degrees before timing the opposite bank). Have you triple checked the bank to bank timing?

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/26418-diy-setting-cam-timing-m96.html

Maybe if you are uncertain, pull those green cam plugs and send some pictures of both sides of the cams at TDC on both banks, then rotate 360 and show us TDC again on both banks. You don't have to pull the cam cover to validate timing, but if you have one cover off, don't rotate the engine until the cover is back on (sealed, torqued, tensioners in place, etc.), otherwise timing will CERTAINLY slip.

A bad actuator that is stuck on or open can also cause a misfire, as one bank's mechanical timing will be advanced by 25 degrees.

If it is misfiring it is probably not because of a bad cam sensor. The engine should run just fine without both cam sensors (or maybe just one) and will default to standard ignition timing and use the crank position sensor and the other bank to determine the proper ignition timing. IF the timing is right this is going to be good for about 95% of your horsepower and the engine should run fine.

Bad wiring on a fuel injector or coil pack would cause a mis.

You could disable each cylinder one by one and if the problem goes away the mis is due to bad spark or injector or wiring associated with each.

Edited December 15, 2012 by logray

[phil53chevy]

Got it, need to check both banks cam timing allocation first ! I will post what I find out. thanks for all the comments/input !

[logray]

No problem, don't hesitate to ask for help.

[dcdrechsel]

Just looked at wiring diagram -pin3-re/vi , pin2 re/gr , pin 1 br/pk .The same for both banks .

[logray]

Phil: also you can reuse those green cam plugs a couple times after you pull them, just put a little RTV where you poked a hole. Then at some point go back and replace them with new ones.

DCD: Yes they are run off the same "wire" and in fact, the DME just reads the voltage oscilations each 360 degrees... one of the WSM procedures is to watch this on an o-scope.. so you'll have a double hump (one for each TDC). Not until later cars they added more wires and stuff..

On ROW cars there is just one cam sensor and it just figures out where bank 2 "should be" by looking at bank 1 and the crank sensor... and you'll just have a single hump every 4 strokes when looking at cam sensor. I think it an emissions regulation for USA to have both.

Edited December 15, 2012 by logray

[phil53chevy]

thanks. I actually used a pick to get the green caps off without tearing them up. I am putting the bank 2 cams back on and will post pics of both bank 1 and bank 2 cam allocations relative to TDC for each compression stroke.

exhaust cam in proper orientation for each bank

<[ bank 1 cam notch facing valve cover

]< bank 2 cam notch facing crankcase

[phil53chevy]

my mistake inprevious post description . notch is on intake cam.

anyway, bank 1 cam cover back on ,torqued and green plugs out on both bank 1 and bank 2.

first pic with mirror is bank 2 intake cam at TDC, intake cam notch facing crankcase.

second pic, left to right, is exhaust cam bank 2, compression stroke, cam in line with head seam.

then i unpinned motor and rotated 360 to bank 1 compression stroke

third pic, intake cam notch, bank 1 facing valve cover.

fourth pic, exhaust cam bank 1 in line with head seam.

[logray]

Ok, I'm trying to follow your pictures and I think you are good, maybe you can double and triple check (I chcked mine over about 4 times before starting it up). It looks like you started at STEP 2 since your bank 2 notch was facing inwards and the small segment was facing the cam cover.

Before you rotated, at the same time, did you look at Bank 1 to see if it's notch was also facing inwards and the small segment was facing the crankcase? Even though everything is chained together, and you might think it would make sense if one bank looks one way and you rotate it should look the same the other, if you are a tooth or two off when you installed, after repeating the procedure a few times the orientation will change between banks, making it important to rotate at least 2 or 3 times and check both sides at each TDC.Here's the procedure summarized:If you start at Bank 1 at TDC start with STEP 1. (otherwise just reverse the two steps if you find that the slot on bank 2 intake is already facing towards the engine at TDC).STEP 1Bank 1, groove/slot/notch on intake cam (rear of engine) faces towards cam coverBank 1, narrow segment on exhaust cam (front of engine) faces towards cam coverVERY important AT the SAME TIME without rotating the engineBank 2, groove/slot/notch on intake cam (front of engine) faces towards cam coverBank 2, narrow segment on exhaust cam (rear of engine) faces towards crankcaseTHEN, rotate engine 360 degreesSTEP 2Bank 1, groove/slot/notch on intake cam (rear of engine) faces towards crankcaseBank 1, narrow segment on exhaust cam (front of engine) faces towards engineVERY important AT the SAME TIME without rotating the engineBank 2, groove/slot/notch on intake cam (front of engine) faces towards crankcaseBank 2, narrow segment on exhaust cam (rear of engine) faces towards cam coverIf your slots and segments line up exactly as laid out above, and your slots are aligned straight up and down with the parting line of the cam covers, and you rotate multiple times and each time they line up correctly then you are timed correctly.I still like to repeat the procedure 2 or 3 more times, because each time you rotate you validate the chains are set at the proper number of teeth on the sprokets and nothing is slipping.As long as you put the correct cams in the correct banks (they are not interchangable), you should be OK, and it looks that way from your pics, but even still - you are there with the engine and with the procedure you should be confident you are timed right, don't just take my word for it.So that being said if everything checks out with the timing then you are probably looking at a bad actuator or bad sensor/wiring.If it's a bad actuator that is stuck and causing misfires the engine is going to run really rough and it could cause a misfire because one bank is far out of time with the other bank.If it is just a bad sensor or wiring you are probably just going to have codes, and the engine should run fine.You could be dealing with multiple issues including a bad actuator, solenoid, sensor, wiring, and it is even possible at the same time you have bad fuel or spark causing a mis as well (perhaps retorque spark plugs and dis/reconnect all packs and injectors). When I first fired up my engine I installed a spark plug incorrectly and it was causing a terrible spark knock, I thought it was going to blow up. After I reinstalled the spark plug it was perfect.

I know it sucks to have to take the cover off again (I had to do mine about 6 times to get things right), and if it were me I would probably just throw a new actuator (~$750 for the actuator/solenoid combo) in there unless you want to take it in steps and eliminate the bad spark/fuel and sensor/wiring first.

[phil53chevy]

Logray,

I rotated the engine 4 times and notches and cam allocation were right on the money.

I drained all fuel and ran what was left in fuel lines in to a jar untill the clean peremium came out. Also cleaned the fuel rail with injectors out before i put together. I did not clean the injectors. the coils "look" old and cracked, and ia mowndering if the new engine heat from satrt up has affected them. The engine was running great at first but now all bank 1missfires and of course the bank 2 the cam codes 1324, 1539. I will dis/reconnect the coils and wires, injectors and check plug torques.

[logray]

Well that's good news then the the mises are prob not related to timing, that would be a big problem!

Fortunately I learned very early on that when you upgrade the cylinder size, you also need injectors to match. At first mine ran OK, but slowly started to sorta stumble on idle and power wasn't all that great. With just a few miles on the car the DME adapted to very lean and was dumping tons of fuel into the cylinders. I had the old injectors cleaned and they came out great, but they were not matched to the 3.6L cylinders. Once I put in the white injectors to match the 3.6L cylinders the lean running problem went away and it ran even better than before. Heat is a big enemy to any engine, but especially one that is breaking in.

When I did my engine I replaced just about everything including the coils and plugs. The only thing I cut a corner on was the injectors, and later ended up replacing those too.

If you are suspecting coils you can swap them between banks, and of course if the mises follow... although I wouldn't run a rebuilt engine very long if it is missing.

[dcdrechsel]

This may be a dumb idea -try disconnecting the maf .Better yet disconnect battery and let dme reset as step 1 and maf as step 2 .If it ran ok at first start this might help zero in on what's malfunctioning .

[phil53chevy]

Logray-I read you rebuld article and very other one on earth !! I think dharn had the same injector issue when he upsized cylinders.

It was odd that it ran great at fisrt and has slowly starting to run crarpy.

dcdrechsel- I was palnning to disconnect the battery to reset dme and see if misses went away. Then i could confirm either injectors were too small or coils, etc.What happens when you dissconnect maf ? what does that do ?

[logray]

The MAF kicks in mainly at higher RPMs and adjusts fuel delivery based on intake air temp and quantity of air coming in, if you unplug MAF the DME will use the default map and the engine should run fine without it (although you won't get all the possible HP, and if it can't read intake temp or air quantity the fuel map is not going to be corrected towards various sensor readings). It usually doesn't run as smoothly if it is unplugged, but plugging unplugging can eliminate the MAF as a contributing factor. It sounds like you are dealing with other issues though (or maybe multiple).

It's not unusual that the engine runs OK (or better) after you reset the DME (battery reset) for a little while, because the DME will use the factory MAP, then as it starts to learn the running characteristics it will adjust fuel mixture to compensate for problems, prevent long term damage, and control emissions. IN the case of undersized injectors it's going to add more fuel, which IMHO is not a good thing letting the computer decide versus just putting in the right size (or even larger) injectors in the first place. In every car I've seen/read about that has lean running (and computer compensates by adding more fuel, whether it's injectors or an air leak), the engine runs like crap.

A DME itself should not normally cause misfires though, unless it is really corrupt after a bad third party flash (I've seen a couple of these).

Edited December 17, 2012 by logray