Potential IMS Failures

[0356kid]

http://www.rabyenginedevelopment.com/IMS_GUARDIAN.html

Hope i am not creating a lot of controversy on this subject but I'd be interested in an opinion or two on the item in this link that I've included. Is it correct that potential failures were/are more common in earlier 997's (05 to 08)?

And, I have an 08 C2S with no known problems that runs great.

Tony

[JFP in PA]

Jake as developed (and continues to improve) an interesting system, particularly for those with the 05-08 engines that cannot easily be IMSR retrofitted. The system seem to work well and I have not heard any issues other than DIY installation hang ups, which he has moved to address with better instructions and changes to the system to make it easier to do.

Any M9697 engine with an intermediate shaft is at some risk of suffering a failure. The early cars are better known because they have been off warranty longer, have had more owners comment on forums such as this, and have more road miles on them. But the later engines still suffer IMS failures.

[logray]

...although some say perhaps the very early dual row (1997~2000/2001) and the later 2005+ engines through 2009 before DFI are perhaps less susceptible to failure (and LNE and F6I have both commented that they see the most failures from the smallest and weakest 2001-2004 single row bearings).

[jfoxny]

Is it correct that potential failures were/are more common in earlier 997's (05 to 08)?

The bottom line is no one knows for sure. However, I wouldn't necessarily say IMS failures are "common." IMS failures do happen, however, from the techs I've talked to at various dealerships, it's not actually that common. Keep in mind two things: 1) people in the forums represent a small percentage of Porsche's overall customer base and 2) people tend to talk about the bad things that happen to them rather than the good, e.g., I've never seen a forum post entitled "NO IMS FAILURE!" :-)

Jason

PS - You might be interested in this thread over at rennlist: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-forum/629870-ims-failure-for-your-997-car-y-or-n-tell-us-yr-997-1-2-m96-m97-failure-mode.html

Edited May 25, 2012 by jfoxny

[0356kid]

Thanks for the input gentlemen. I did install one of L&N's magnetic drain plugs and during oil changes, cut open my used oil filter to see what it might contain. I also don't follow the factory suggested oil change interval but change mine more frequently.

Tony

[brendel]

Hi there my C4S from 2006 is running very well at 80 KMiles

Last month I did my oil change and checked the filter, it was really clean of metal particles

The oil consumption is amazingly low, I did a quart for 6000 miles

I would suspect that there is something putting stress on the IMS bearing rather than a self destruction, we heard a lot about grease starvation from several sources, why Porsche would then be keeping the same design for over 10 years, it would have been easily fixed without a dry bearing, could the timing chain and tensioners be the cause when they age

I am looking often at Mobile.de a german second hand car website for high mileage car, some do have new engine, but the cause is not explained the 3.8 engine seem to suffer from piston seize also

anyway, I documented myself too much about it and my solution to sleep at night was to take the Porsche guarantee as long as possible

[phillipj]

This subject has been beaten to the point of nauseum. Why don't we just create a folder or link with the IMS subject? Then the curious can find there answers there without having our brightest members answer the same questions over and over and over... Just Sayin... :soapbox:

[JFP in PA]

This subject has been beaten to the point of nauseum. Why don't we just create a folder or link with the IMS subject? Then the curious can find there answers there without having our brightest members answer the same questions over and over and over... Just Sayin... :soapbox:

You are assuming that the newest poster would bother to run a search and find it.........................

[0356kid]

I did try a search and, am aware of the IMS issues. I guess I didn't search using the right word or words though as I was trying to find info related to this new device, if anyone had by chance installed it and opinions on its functionality if they had put it in. Guess I didn't phrase my question correctly the first time.

[phillipj]

0356kid,

I hope you didn't take my response in a negative way..

I wasn't trying to be a jerk.. It just seems that this is such a hugely requested subject it may be warranted to have it's own forum. It would make it easier for new members (like yourself) searching for information.. Just an idea...

There is a lot of information here on the IMS...Jake Raby is another great source. http://www.flat6innovations.com/

Good luck!

Phillip

[0356kid]

Thanks Phillip. I am rather new to this forum and still learning the in's and out's of it. In some ways, it is a little more "involved" than the 356 Registry i use more frequently. I'll try to spend a little more time on it though and get more familiar with it, the contents and what it has to offer. Thanks for the link too.

Tony

[phillipj]

:thumbup:

[AP 997S]

First off . . I have a very early build 997 (Launch Car #337). I'm the 2nd owner (have had it for well over 5 yrs) and currently have >26K miles; no IMS or RMS issues. I'm led to believe (no substantiating data) that Tiptronic equipped 997s (which mine is) are less prone to IMS/RMS because they're 'rev limited' via the DME and therefore 'over-stressed' less. If I was to worry about everything that could go wrong w/ my car I'd be neuritic I must be a little neuritic :D as I did install the LNE magnetic drain plug and filter system. I do my own oil service every 12 months as opposed to miles.

The IMS Guardian is designed for the 996. I suspect it would work on a 997 but the switch w/ it's yellow/red warning led would need to be integrated differently. So far Raby hasn't released such a kit.

Yes . . . There is pile of threads relating to this 'never dying' issue. A search w/ keywords 'IMS' or 'RMS' will yield countless hours of reading enjoyment or additional concern. Excellence magazine has ( written by Tony Callas) many articles regarding the Raby and LNE products. They are pretty good from an informational perspective but really don't have much in the way of statistical data or frequency of occurrence.

As someone already pointed out the Porsche boards/forums comprise of a very small sampling of 997 owners and they are more likely to post problems/issues and modifications as opposed to 'good news'. I worry (my phobia showing through) more about 'cell phone' or texting drivers. When I hear tire squeal from behind I almost unconsciously feel it's aimed at me and take defensive or offensive action. But don't call me paranoid :eek:.

Bottom Line . . . . Enjoy your 997 and drive it in any fashion that brings a smile to your face.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[JFP in PA]

First off . . I have a very early build 997 (Launch Car #337). I'm the 2nd owner (have had it for well over 5 yrs) and currently have >26K miles; no IMS or RMS issues. I'm led to believe (no substantiating data) that Tiptronic equipped 997s (which mine is) are less prone to IMS/RMS because they're 'rev limited' via the DME and therefore 'over-stressed' less.

Cars with the Tiptronic are no more or less prone to IMS failures; fewer are reported simply because of the ratio of Tip cars to manual gearbox cars. RPM limits also do not factor into the failure either. The IMS bearing is believed to die because the seals on it fail and allow motor oil to wash the high pressure grease out of the normally sealed assembly, and then the trapped motor oil breaks down and the bearing has little, if any, lubrication. Obviously, this process is independent of the transmission type. If you would like to learn more about how this process takes place, I’d suggest the LN Engineering and Flat Six websites will provide you with more data than you probably really want to have.

[logray]

;)

[Henrik68]

I found this at rennlist:

"To determine if your M97 engine has the improved IMS, you will need to check your engine number.

if the engine number is 68509790 and below, unfortunately it still has the smaller removable IMS bearing.

if the engine number is 68509791 and above, it will have the new large single row IMS. The IMS cover also has the 22mm nut.";

[JFP in PA]

Unfortunately, that has proven to not be correct. There have been several "number ranges" bandied about for this over the years, and ultimately all have come up short. The only proven way to know for sure which bearing is in a 2005 engine is to pull the flywheel and look for the 22MM center shaft nut

Edited August 13, 2012 by JFP in PA

[Loren]

I totally agree with JFP in PA -- that post on another site is very misleading.

Also, over time engines get changed out, and IMS repairs happen, as well as 3rd party repairs/upgrades.

Again -- the only real way to know for sure is to look at it.

[Henrik68]

Hi

I hade a look at mine and i have 22mm nut :thumbup:

[JFP in PA]

Don't be too over joyed; that means you have the unit that cannot be serviced without tearing the engine apart...... :eek:

[Henrik68]

I´m happy ! I´m not "a prophet of doom"! Enjoy driving my car every day :drive:

[eso1968]

I know how it feels. I used to have a 1998 996 3.4 which I think had the highest risk for IMS failure. I had the car for 2+ years and luckily no problem at all. Then I switched to a 997.1 with 3.8L engine which also some claim with IMS problem still there. I have decided to leave this behind and enjoy the car as much as I can. I think we should not worry too much about this. If it will happen, it will and we should not keep worrying and loose fun having the car.

[Andrej60]

I've been reading religiously about potential engine issues after I bought my 2005 911 Carrera. It's an early model, 997.1 built in May 2004 (bought in NJ) and after 7 years of hard use and daily driving (99k miles on the odometer) I have nothing but good things to say about my car. I make regular weekend excursions on German autobahn (moved from the US 3 yrs ago) and the car is a blast to drive fast. The only unscheduled service item that had to be replaced, and which should be mentioned in the service manual, were the ignition coils. The Porsche mechanics in Germany recommend replacing them as a preventative maintenance at 50k miles. As a matter of fact, they were so apologetic, they provided this service for a very small fee. Other than that and an ABS sensor replaced a year ago, it was a trouble free experience. I follow recommended service intervals, oil and fluids change every 2yrs. The car rattles less in the EU (NJ roads were rough), but overall it is mechanically sound and solid. No worse than my Japanese cars I've driven over previous years.

Regards,

Andrej

[JFP in PA]

"I follow recommended service intervals, oil and fluids change every 2yrs."

I'd seriously reconsider that length service interval and look more towards every 5-6K on the engine oil........................

Edited August 29, 2012 by JFP in PA

[Silver_TT]

I respectfully agree with JFP on this one as well. 5-6K miles or 1 yr -- whichever comes first.

Changing your oil frequently doesn't cost much and it's easy to do yourself in 15 mins (not counting drain time). It's cheap insurance, if for no other reason simply because you can check the oil to make sure it's clean (no metal, particles, irregularities, etc) and everything looks good. It's pretty good "coverage" for such a small price.

I installed the LN Engineering magnetic drain plug with my last oil change. Also cheap insurance.

Cheers!

Edited August 29, 2012 by ferrugia