Casper Labs Ceramic IMS Bearing

[casperlabs]

Those of you who have tried to clean these engines, know that the outside casting roughness and number of crevices make this a difficult to clean. With all the environmental concerns with this type of operation, we suggest you consider pressure washing... if the engine needs a major clean-up. Washing with only water at 1500PSI or greater is very effective at mechanically removing all the grime without dealing with solvents. The grime comes off in small chunks that are easily floated to the edge of a concrete or asphalt surface, where they can be collected with a shovel. Typical homeowner grade grade units of 4HP or greater seem to work well. Renting units may be more practical for those of you wanting to try it out first. Use care around more delicate parts (such as the crank rear main seal) to avoid damage or water intrusion. This process is not necessary for most every IMS bearing repacement, as the condition of this area can vary considerably in cleanliness.

BR

[utkinpol]

Hi,

What is the situation with 997 m96 motors made with most recent bearing design? Obviously it cost prohibitive to split the case to replace bearing, so, what are the options? I am tracking my car since i got it in '09 , it is MY06 made in july, new bearing design. Reading all info above does not add up much confidence

[casperlabs]

Your assessment is pretty much correct. If you have the engine apart it would be advisable to find an earlier shaft, or possibly have the existing one reworked for the dual row configuration. We have very mixed feelings about removing the outer seal when you have steel balls in the bearing. Any piece of metallic FOD could start a bearing failure. In the mean time, keep your oil level topped off at all times. Sustained high RPM running of that big bearing should be avoided in our opinion.

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

[slbates]

As you all know, the amount of load on any screw fastener can vary greatly with lubrication, thread condition, etc.)

BR

We tested several types of lubricants when I was in school and found that the type could cause wild swings in torque applied vs. elongation. Generic torque tables being used with lubricants is a recipe for disaster and can easily overstress a fastener. An article I read years later in AOPA (September 2000) seemed to have a very good discussion on the subject and is worth a quick read .

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2000/anp0009.html

[mikefocke]

My take away from these discussions:

I'm as worried here with Casper Labs testing as I was when I first publically challenged Jake/Charles on how many test units and how many miles they had tested the LN units. If the problem didn't show up with all of the testing Porsche must have done with their test mules as they prepared the first water cooled engines for mass production, why should I trust a few cars with relatively limited miles on the bearings was my question to Jake. With 4k installed now, and about a .1% failure rate (for whatever reason) with some now approaching 3 years and 30k miles LN now has some stats. Failed bearings are sent to Ed, the bearing engineer for analysis.

I also said early on in the LN introduction discussions that, if I have a heart opperation, I want the guy to be doing it who has done hundreds, even several this week, and who keeps track of his results. I'm not inclined to do it myself or to be trusting my local do-it-all mechanic.

Tools, instructions (that have gone through several clarification revisions) and supporting an experienced installation network of mechanics are important to the successful installation of the bearing and they contribute to cost. As one who used to produce a product that sold in the 200 per year quantities (but cost $20m to develop), I appreciate what any small market manufacturer has to pay in overhead per unit beyond simple bearing part costs. And I expect to pay those costs for my betterment because I want that guy to stay in business and be in a position to support me. I don't want a situation where he ships and forgets.

A $300-400 cost difference is inconsequential in the total cost of running these P-cars compared to the depreciation, tires, etc. I'm one to do it once and do it right. Its only a single rear tire after all.

And finally I appreciate any one trying to develop products to make our P-cars better. I'm not trying to suggest that Casper might not have a potentially better product, just pointing out where I (with life cycle product planning experience) might be seeing beyond just either better or cheaper as I consider which total solution is right for me (or if one is right at all).

All moving parts wear and fail. Some fail sooner than others. Some later. Some installations are better than others. Somebody has to be on the ends of those bell curves.

[holden997]

I'm interested to know what was the initial source that triggered an IMS bearing to fail? I know a lack of lubrication is the final step to the death of the bearing. There seem to be a lot more engines with the "6204" bearing failing than the revised larger "6305". I suspect the covers used on the "6204" are not the same design/quality as the ones on the "6305". I believe the better seals on the "6305" is preventing oil from getting into the bearings and washing out the grease. On the weekend while doing my clutch, I decided to popped out my IMS flange to inspect the IMS bearing and from what I can see, there is no play, no oil/grease seeping out of the seal, there is no crack on the seal, the plastic looks very good and when I spun it, I can feel the resistance of the grease so the grease is still in there. This is the "6305" bearing.

What is your opinion on this?

[logray]

The 6204 single row (~2001-2004) seem to have higher reports of failure, they are the weakest.

The 6204 dual row seem to have less failure reports, they are as strong as the newest single row.

"Engines replaced or vehicles purchased in or after MY2006 should have the revised, larger single-row IMS bearing, identifiable by a larger 22mm nut in the center of the IMS hub flange. This uses a very large 6305 single-row bearing with a load rating similar to the dual row 6204 bearing compared to the earlier single row 6204 bearing which has about 2/3rds the load rating of the 6305."

[luxter]

Single row replaceable bearing 6204

ID = 20mm

OD = 47mm

Dynamic Load = 12,800 N

Static Load = 6,600 N

Limiting Speed = 11,000 RPMs with grease

Single Row Non-Replaceable bearing 6305

ID = 25mm

OD = 62mm

Dynamic Load = 23,600 N

Static Load = 12,100 N

Limiting Speed = 12,000 RPMs with grease

The load rating of 6305 (the non-replaceable one) has been increased by nearly 85% compared to 6204.

The 6305 is larger therefore more of the bearing is submerged in engine lubricant all other things equal.

Seems like a substantial change in design.

=L=

[casperlabs]

One additional reason the dual row lasts longer than the early single row (same diameter ID/OD) is the reduced deflection of the ID race under load. Every bearing develops normal wear that increases internal clearances. As the clearance opens, the seal has to deal with more runout. This gets to an unacceptable level faster with the single row because of its lower load rating (faster wear) and lack of the "wheelbase" of two ball rows. Once the runout exceeds the seal's sealing limit, the bearing is on its way out. A bearing with small balls will have a larger angular wobble than one with big balls given the same internal clearance.

I sometimes think we should have added some hi-tech coating or other superfluous feature and priced the bearing higher than LN. There will always be those who believe higher cost means "superior". There is a particularly large Porsche market down here in south Florida. My survey of the dealers and independent shops shows there are less than a dozen cars down here with the hybrid bearings. If you multiply the cost of a bearing by 4000 supposed users..... you have at least $2million 400 thousand in sales. Do you believe that?

Our experience with these simple bearing types,.... is that every failure will be traceable to an installation error. If you survey the major bearing manufacturers, they will repeat this. Properly designed, a bearing has truly incredible life. That means no sealed, grease lubed bearings immersed in hot oil.

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

[dcdrechsel]

Being first to market can pay big dividends .

Here is a question......I have the LNE bearing and it has always bothered me that there isn't a seal .I think the seal serves two functions keep grease in and junk out .These motors because of all the cam chains and related hardware shed a lot of junk .What are your thoughts on some type of screen ?There is a post going on Rennlist 996 forum that started me thinking about this again .

Don't know who you know in South Florida but would suggest that Pedro of Pedro's garage would be a great source to get acquainted with .

Dave

[JFP in PA]

My survey of the dealers and independent shops shows there are less than a dozen cars down here with the hybrid bearings. If you multiply the cost of a bearing by 4000 supposed users..... you have at least $2million 400 thousand in sales. Do you believe that?

Yes. LN's owner openly and quite willingly shares the data he has with anyone that asks for it.......................

[casperlabs]

We gave some thought to making a full pressure lubed journal bearing kit that would completely eliminate any IMS failure scenario short of some loss of oil pressure. It is really quite simple, using a bearing essentially the same as a pressed in cam in block camshaft bearing. The oil pump has plenty of reserve capacity in these engines for the miniscule add'l oil req'd, and the risk of damaging the bearing going in...... is much lower than any ball bearing. The drawbacks are an external oil line (and you have to drill a hole thru the open bell housing side of the case to feed the oil line to the bottom side of a new support --no nearby pressurized oil sources), and a lot more parts. You would have to sell 4000 of these to get a price that would make it affordable. If I make that much money, the IRS will be wondering where it all came from!

When the engine is running with a hybrid bearing IMS, the RPM is sufficient to create enough windage that very little liquid oil gets to the bearing. It is being lubed by oil vapor virtually all the time. This windage keeps the possibility of FOD way down when spinning, and the stack up of parts is also helpful (the face of the bearing is close to the vertical side of the support,... and the ball separator we use blocks the opening). This limits the size of foreign objects that can find their way in. The greatest possibility of something getting in is when the engine is stopped and the oil level full (above the bottom of the bearing), then.... something could float in. Since oil has a specific gravity somewhere around 0.8, it is not going to be anything made of metal that "floats in". There just are not materials in these engines that have low S.G. and enough hardness to damage one of these bearings. Gasket material and little bits of chain guide will be mashed by the ceramic ball w/o causing bearing problems.

To give you an idea of how little space there is on the open side of the bearing, we ship each kit with a veterinarian's needle syringe to startup lube the the bearing (after it is in place and locked). The needle is .030 diameter, and you can just get it past the ball separator. Now, ....if you put a screen it there, it has to be supported. That means it has to spin (remember the OD rotates on this bearing). Having a fragile screen spinning at approx 3000 rpm is not a good idea. If it comes apart, most of it will be centerfuged away, but it could end up in the bearing. What is the benefit when you are down to .030" anyway?

Regardless of what bearing you buy, it all going to come down to the installer. There is not a bearing made that can't be ruined in hearbeat by dirt or overload. Everybody should be focused on who they pick to install it.

For those of you contemplating purchasing one of these cars, if the seller tells you it has a ceramic bearing,.............ask to see the invoice. I had one independent shop tell me that he replaced an engine in a Boxster for IMS failure. The customer was upset because the seller told him it had been upgraded to the hybrid. When the mech pulled the support, ...it was just another steel bearing.

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

[logray]

...we ship each kit with a veterinarian's needle syringe to startup lube the the bearing (after it is in place and locked). The needle is .030 diameter, and you can just get it past the ball separator. Now, ....if you put a screen it there, it has to be supported...

This is interesting, considering the LNE retrofits come pre-packed with lube.

[dcdrechsel]

Ok -if the chainguide material is crunchable I am worrying about the wrong things .As always thank you for your complete answer .

[casperlabs]

The bearings are shipped with an extremely light oil that is really just for preservation (as a lube it is pretty much worthless). Reason for this is that viscous oil masks the feel of contaminant in the bearing. Our sense of feel is critical to determining if any foreign objects got in during handling or tapping in place.

BR

[mikefocke]

Give us a list of the parts list included with your kit please. Also a link to the installation guide might help people see what is involved. Do you have any already experienced installers in any location other than S FL? Any "marketing material"?

Edited March 23, 2012 by mikefocke

[casperlabs]

Mike,

You sent me a direct message thru the Renntech system, and I could not reply because the text size would require a microcope to read it. I have written to the webmaster, but the problem persists. Please send me a direct email at N1WR@juno.com

On your requests above.............our position with this bearing replacement is that it is a job for trained, skilled, mechanics who already have experience with major repairs to these specific engines. There are so many unique construction features and special tools required for these engines, that the chance of a novice installing one w/o creating more problems is just about nil. I have an installation manual I can mail you. It is written with a very specific procedure. If you do everything exactly as written , it seems very simple. However,.....people change things, or mistakes get made.............and then (OH NO!) if you don't know what is going on inside the engine, you can really mess up an expensive powerplant. In the past two weeks I have talked 3 customers out of purchasing for self install. They just did not have a clue what they were getting into. You have to have the experience of going thru one of these engines to really appreciate what I have just written.

We have no intention of developing a marketing brocure. The market for this bearing upgrade is pretty small right now. As these vehicle age, and more and more shops start rebuilding them, the market will grow. We will be here with a reasonably priced solution to the IMS worry. All the history and misinformation surrounding the OEM bearing is not helped by the fact there are very few of us who have experience with ceramic bearings. Customers don't know if these bearings are a real solution, or just more smoke and mirrors from someone trying to make a sale. They don't know which aspects are critically important, and which do not matter at all. You can't solve these problems overnight, and you can't provide the education/experience needed with a brocure.

The parts in the kit are shown in the ebay ad with the exception of the syringe (which we intentionally did not show), The present kit has a bearing, retaining ring, spacer, and cup plug. You will also need OEM consumables (seals) depending on what support/stud you elect to use. We also recommend a new factory clinch nut, but it is not absolutely necessary. We have (optional) pullers and bearing drifts shown on the ebay ad as well.

At the present time, all the shops we recommend are in FL, however .....there are hundreds of qualified mechanics that are out there and could easily step up to the job. We can tell over the phone (in less than a couple min.) if the mech knows what he is doing by the questions asked.

Would also like to talk to you about some other elements you might consider for your IMS comparison web page.

Bill Ryan

Casper Labs, Inc.

[Loren]

You sent me a direct message thru the Renntech system, and I could not reply because the text size would require a microcope to read it. I have written to the webmaster, but the problem persists.

I have not received any messages from you either via email or the Personal Message system here.

If someone sent you a message through this forum they have the ability to size and change the fonts to their liking.

So, I guess I am confused with what you are talking about?

[casperlabs]

Thanks Loren, hope this can be resolved as I do not like letting people think they are sending messages to a vacuum! All personal incoming messages thru the Renntech system are in miniscule text regardless of which of my 3 computers I am using. To read them I have to forward the message using my regular JUNO email. When the forwarded message opens, it is in my usual text size. However,.........any links in the original message will not open, making a reply impossible unless the writer has included a direct email address. This situation is completely unique to Renntech correspondance.

This problem goes all the way back to when I registered to be a Renn member. I had to send a regular email to the system admin to get the confirmation pushed thru on the other end. Call me if you wish 561-575-3157 ETZ 8-5 weekdays.

Regards

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

[Loren]

Thanks Loren, hope this can be resolved as I do not like letting people think they are sending messages to a vacuum! All personal incoming messages thru the Renntech system are in miniscule text regardless of which of my 3 computers I am using. To read them I have to forward the message using my regular JUNO email. When the forwarded message opens, it is in my usual text size. However,.........any links in the original message will not open, making a reply impossible unless the writer has included a direct email address. This situation is completely unique to Renntech correspondance.

This problem goes all the way back to when I registered to be a Renn member. I had to send a regular email to the system admin to get the confirmation pushed thru on the other end. Call me if you wish 561-575-3157 ETZ 8-5 weekdays.

Regards

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

Can you forward one of these to me please?

[casperlabs]

On the subject of mechanic qualifications for installing the hybrid bearing kit..................

If your mechanic has personal experience doing Variocam actuator replacement, has renewed the chain guides both on the Variocam actuator and in the crankcase, has removed and replaced all the three (totally unique but unfortunately interchangeable) chain tensioners, has sequenced and timed the camshafts on both banks, and has field serviced an open bearing or two in his past............then he is qualified (he understand how this valve train works). If he says " I've done it on a Toyota, same thing..." get in your car and leave immediatly! The experience has to be directly with these Porsche water boxers.

BR

Casper Labs, Inc

[casperlabs]

Loren

What email would you like it sent to?

BR

[Loren]

Loren

What email would you like it sent to?

BR

I sent you a PM.

[mikefocke]

Loren, I sent casper labs a routine message (no conscious formatting) using the Renntech system and Bill responded to me to ask me to resend it to him via an external email system so he could read it.

Other forums simply send an email to the intended recipient of the forum message system on their external email system saying they have a private message on the forum system and not trying to relay the entire text of the message. Feel free to send me a message if would help you debug what happened to him. Feel free to examine any message I may have sent if it helps you in your debugging.

[Loren]

Loren, I sent casper labs a routine message (no conscious formatting) using the Renntech system and Bill responded to me to ask me to resend it to him via an external email system so he could read it.

Other forums simply send an email to the intended recipient of the forum message system on their external email system saying they have a private message on the forum system and not trying to relay the entire text of the message. Feel free to send me a message if would help you debug what happened to him. Feel free to examine any message I may have sent if it helps you in your debugging.

Thanks, this issue has already been taken care of and resolved.