which way does oil flow?

[orangem]

Hi all,

Notice a few black plastic pieces in the oil filter. It is on the outside of the filter, the inner core side is clean as a whistle. Does the outside get oil flowed towards the inside after circulating through the engine or is it from the inside out?

I am hoping it is not sign of disaster...

[logray]

The oil flows from the oil sump/pump into the outside of the filter to the inside.

Next stop is the oil cooler and then off to the various engine pieces.

[Loren]

Oil circulation in the M96 engines.

Click to enlarge...

[orangem]

thanks!

I have attached my picture of dissecting my filter.

I saw various pieces of black rubber. The longest piece is 1 cm (length) x 2mm width. It looks to be flat on one side and semi circular on the other side.

The red one circles are the black pieces I found.

The other picture is one black piece against the ruler.

There are only a few metallic speckles here and there (may be like 4 or 5). The mileage on this engine is around 20,000miles .The car is an 05 but got a remanufactured engine from Porsche in '08. Would these black plastic pieces still due to engine breaking in? Or would it be Porsche didn't clean up the engine during remanufacturing and those are left overs?

Or simply the IMS is on its path to destruction?

I thought the '08 remanufactured engine would have the latest bearing and IMS bearing problems would be least likely to happen. Please advice. Kind of fearful of what would happen.

Thanks

[logray]

I wouldn't freak out about it.

It could be silicone and the metal could just be normal wear.

If it were me I would just clean it up (and i've been there before seeing more debris), I would just keep an eye on it. Perhaps change the filter in a 100 miles or so and cut it apart. You can change the filter without changing or draining the oil.

[orangem]

thanks! I think you are right. The black plastic is soft and feels like some silicone. I figure if the IMS bearing seal disintegrating, the seal got to be a hard plastic seal... sigh of relief.....

[Smartstrike]

Bumping this thread to ask question. The oil pump and intermediate shaft (numbers 3 and 6) shown in the diagram I assume are on the "front" of the engine. "Front" being the part of the engine facing the front of the car. So, oil is drawn from the sump by the pump then goes to the filter and then the engine.  The diagram does not show the rear of the intermediate shaft where the notorious IMS bearing is. When does the oil reach that area and does it flow directly back to the sump from that area or go through one of the banks?

[JFP in PA]

53 minutes ago, Smartstrike said:

Bumping this thread to ask question. The oil pump and intermediate shaft (numbers 3 and 6) shown in the diagram I assume are on the "front" of the engine. "Front" being the part of the engine facing the front of the car. So, oil is drawn from the sump by the pump then goes to the filter and then the engine.  The diagram does not show the rear of the intermediate shaft where the notorious IMS bearing is. When does the oil reach that area and does it flow directly back to the sump from that area or go through one of the banks?

Welcome to RennTech 

 

Simple: Unless you have retrofitted the rear factory IMS bearing with LN Engineering's IMS Solution, which is pressurized oil fed, there is NO oil feed to the rear IMS sealed ball bearing, which is why many die prematurely. The front IMS bearing is oil fed and drains back to the sump.

[Smartstrike]

Thank you for the reply. The fact that the oil doesn't actually get into the sealed IMS bearing is not the issue.  Not your fault though as I now realize that is what anyone would think I am concerned about based on what I wrote.

 

I am actually trying to solve a problem with a small piece of metal that broke off a tool and fell down into the Intermediate shaft area while I was removing the rear shaft seal. I know oil gets to this area because there are chains and gears there. 

 

Basically, I am trying to figure out when the oil flow goes through this area where does it go next. Directly to the sump or through other parts of the engine like the banks or crankshaft. This broken metal piece, which would match almost exactly like a piece if you cut a 3/8's inch piece off the end of a fork tine and, is probably sitting at the bottom of the case under the IMS, would probably be caught up in the flow and move along with the flow. I am hoping it goes from where it is straight into the sump.  

 

The reason it is important to know, in my opinion, is that I have used an endoscope camera, magnetic flexible pickup tool and a small suction hose to try and locate and get it out but have had no luck yet. If I don't find it I have two options that I can think off.  One, break the engine apart, find it and then put the engine back together. Or, put the new real shaft seal in, start the engine and hope it make it to the sump and stays there or makes it to the oil filter, which should stop it because it is a magnetic filter. 

 

The piece that fell in is ferrous.

 

No good answer here but I want to have the correct facts before I make a decision.

[JFP in PA]

All of the oil from the chains on the back of the engine gravity flows towards the sump.

[Smartstrike]

thank you

[JFP in PA]

Just be aware that small metallic parts being loose in the area of the IMS chains it problematic; if it doesn't drop to the sump, it could get picked up by one of the chains or rotating chain gears, and if it gets under the chain, you will have problems.  Proceed with caution....

[Smartstrike]

 

Thank you for the advice. I, and a friend who works for RedIine Service in Tucson, have taken many looks in with the endoscope and have seen nothing on the chains or lodged between the chains and gears, but I do realize it could be there.  I think I have around a 50% chance of it coming out fine but like I said above, there is no good answer here. Putting the rear shaft seal in, starting the engine and hoping it flows into the sump where I will capture it with magnets is the only option I can think of.  If it doesn't work, I'm where I would be if I don't try it, open the engine up anyway.  I do understand that I will probably have to pay for some new parts but this should be limited to the rear intermediate shaft area.

[JFP in PA]

You could try spraying some lightweight engine oil into the cavity through where you were working on the seal, then draining the oil and pulling the sump cover to see if it washed down before ever starting the engine. Just be sure to filter all the oil coming out through a suitable screen to watch for the part.

 

Unfortunately, like most modern engine case castings, there are a lot of small "nooks" where things can get caught, only to pop loose later on.  Good luck with this, these problems are always nerve racking...

[Smartstrike]

Thank you for the suggestion. I will try that, and anything else you can think off before I use the "Hail Mary".

[Smartstrike]

No luck yet. I pulled oil pan bottom so I could get in the the area from where the oil gravity drops into the pan. Nothing yet. What do you think of putting the right sized socket on the pulley and manually turning the crankshaft to see if anything falls from the rear chains of if something hangs them up?

[JFP in PA]

13 hours ago, Smartstrike said:

No luck yet. I pulled oil pan bottom so I could get in the the area from where the oil gravity drops into the pan. Nothing yet. What do you think of putting the right sized socket on the pulley and manually turning the crankshaft to see if anything falls from the rear chains of if something hangs them up?

That would be fine, but just remember to only turn the engine in the clockwise direction (from looking at the front crank pulley) as these are interference engines and do not like rotating backwards.

[Smartstrike]

Ok. Will do. I did try spraying oil into the crank, intermediate shaft region and draining the oil but nothing came out.  Using my compressor I also shot some high-pressure air into that area hoping it might dislodge the metal piece if it was caught up in a chain or gear. 

Thank you again for your help.

[Smartstrike]

JFP,

I put the new rear main seal in, put the new flywheel on, put oil pan bottom back on and filled the car with oil.

I then tried to start it but I get a rapid noise sort of like an impact gun sound. Sounds like it is coming from the starter area. The clutch was depressed so that should have released the clutch safety switch under the drives side.  

Any input you can give me??

Smartstrike

[Smartstrike]

JFP,

I just checked under the car and the starter is engaged with the flywheel if that helps sort out the problem.

Smartstrike

[Smartstrike]

Just checked battery. Reads 11.00 Volts. I'm not sure but that may be too low to start the engine. I sill  jump it and see what happens.

[Smartstrike]

Jumped car and it started. Ran it for about 5 minutes up to 2000 RPM with no problems and no weird noises. Didn't want to run it too long or to fast because muffler is off. Very noisy.