Serious problem.. after oil change 04CS

[jplumlee]

Ok.. so here's what happened...

Thought I would save myself some money and do my own oil change this time. Anyway went through the process and all was well, then we f'd up. My friend that was helping " thought" he was having trouble removing the crush washer but guess what? the washer had already come off. Anyway they continued to pry the problem washer only to realize that they were actually messing up the flat facing that would normally be flush with the crush washer..... I know i know. Anyway after the panic had subsided we decided to see if the damage was enough to keep the plug from sealing. Luckily the threads were ok and we seated the plug and filled the CS with oil. at first it looked like all was ok but after a couple of minutes of sitting (not running ) it started to drip... slowly but still a drip.

so... now I have to figure out a way to seal this drain plug. I thought perhaps I could:

1 use a dremel or something like that with a flat disk and "reface" the flat part that the crush washer would normally press against.

2 use some kind of O-ring or flat rubber washer that would seal off the plug and keep it from leaking

3 use some kind of sealant ( if you guys know of anything ) that I could use to put around the plug as it seats, or on the threads, that would would keep it from leaking but also not set hard enough to cause problems with future oil changes.

I'm just sick about it but it is what it is..... Any ideas or suggestions are very much appreciated. BTW and strangely enough, it only leaks when the car is NOT running. Dry as a bone when the engine is cranked.

I'll probably be up all night trying to come up with something.... man this really sucks. I'm going to post this at a couple of other sites so you may see it in other places... thanks!

[Carmon997S]

A good high temp rtv sealant might work if you clean the surface of all oil first. But with that said I would only do that as a last resort. I would try to fix the sealing surface properly first. If you post some pics maybe someone could give you an idea of how to smooth the surface. It will have to be done evenly or you will be wasting your time and maybe make it worse. Don't put a dremel on it unless your sure you can do it right. It sucks that it happened but hopefully it can be repaired.

[jworden]

I would resist the urge to use any power tool - try some hand work instead.

How about a metal disk 1 or 2 inches in diameter with some fine emery paper or similar glued on. Punch or cut a nice clean hole the same diameter as the drain plug.

Gently tighten down the drain plug with this "sanding disk" held against the damaged surface. Try to rotate the disk back and forth while maintaining light pressure with the drain plug. This should keep the surface flat and parallel. Maybe you want to bend some tabs on the disk to hold onto.

If the damage is more severe you will need a cutting tool rather than an abrasive. There are simple tools in the hardware store for refacing kitchen faucet valve seats - the trick would be to mount it on a mandrel(shaft) which fits nicely in the threaded drain hole, allows rotation, and does not damage the threads. The mandrel's job is to keep the cutting tool parallel to the surface.

Good luck.

John

[UTRacerX9]

Go to an automotive store and pick up a viton washer. It will conform to the gouges and seal the leak. Viton is used for sealing fuel injectors, so it will hold up as drain plug gasket.

[jplumlee]

that's kinda what I was thinking... kind of a flat washer that would "fill in the gaps"

great idea thanks for the suggestion. I was up all night, kept having this dream where I just couldn't keep the oil from POURING out of the engine.... I'm talking gallons. weird

Go to an automotive store and pick up a viton washer. It will conform to the gouges and seal the leak. Viton is used for sealing fuel injectors, so it will hold up as drain plug gasket.

[UTRacerX9]

No problem... Oh, and afterwards... Find a new friend. B)

[jplumlee]

would you leave still use the reg. crush washer AND the viton? if so which one would you put on first?

No problem... Oh, and afterwards... Find a new friend. B)

[wvicary]

Is it possible to post a pic of the damage? I have also seen the drain plug itself crack so examine it carefully or better yet replace it. Your local OPC should stock the item.

[UTRacerX9]

would you leave still use the reg. crush washer AND the viton? if so which one would you put on first?

Ideally, you should use both, so long as there are enough threads on the drain plug for that. The viton washer should go directly against the oil pan, then the crush washer. You also won't be able to tighten it down quite as much as before, or you may split/crack the viton. Just torque it slightly less than spec, and you should be ok. I'd drive the next hundred miles or so carefully, keeping an eye on your gauges and checking for leaks.

[deilenberger]

Use of a viton washer is a bad idea. You don't see this sort of seal anyplace on an aluminum block engine for a reason - the expansion/contraction of the aluminum will make that washer creep out from the aluminum crush washer.

This is a case of suck it up and get it fixed right. I would suggest the OP take it to a pro who is likely to have the knowledge, experience and ability to actually fix it - not try a band-aid solution that well may cost you an engine (loss of all oil when heading down the highway will do that.) You're dicking around with a $26,000 engine in order to try to save a visit to a mechanic. To me - that equation doesn't work. Nor do many of the suggestions here - there is a reason for the aluminum crush washer used in an aluminum sump.

And I'd suggest the OP refrain from working with his "friend" in the future... it sounds like a costly friend to have.

[jplumlee]

I haven't quit decided what to do or what to try... If I were to REPLACE the drain pan, does anyone have an idea what it would take money wise? It looks like the part isn't too expensive but I imagine the labor is where most of the cost would be. Does the engine have to come out to get to it?

[Loren]

I haven't quit decided what to do or what to try... If I were to REPLACE the drain pan, does anyone have an idea what it would take money wise? It looks like the part isn't too expensive but I imagine the labor is where most of the cost would be. Does the engine have to come out to get to it?

Porsche book time is 7.7 hours.

Requires removal (and replacement) of the following:

[UTRacerX9]

Use of a viton washer is a bad idea. You don't see this sort of seal anyplace on an aluminum block engine for a reason - the expansion/contraction of the aluminum will make that washer creep out from the aluminum crush washer.

It's the pan, not the block. The area of the drain plug isn't going to be susceptible to expansion/contraction. Viton will work just fine, it's already being used as valve stem seals and other higher temp, moving part areas. A drain plug doesn't even compare.

http://www.dupontelastomers.com/apps/autofocus/a5/af5.asp?article=BMW

If you scroll down here, you can see they actually make viton/metal oil plug washers.

http://www.oildrainplug.com/index.htm

Edited August 30, 2011 by UTRacerX9

[jplumlee]

thanks for the info guys... I have a couple of new drain plugs on the way as the one that are on the pan are a rounded out too much to use again. I actually may have some trouble getting the leaking one out, and will probably have to use some kind of "ease out" to remove it.( anyone had this problem? any trick to getting it out without tearing anything up?)

Do you know where I can find a washer(s) like this that would be the right size? the little town I'm in does not have them.

Use of a viton washer is a bad idea. You don't see this sort of seal anyplace on an aluminum block engine for a reason - the expansion/contraction of the aluminum will make that washer creep out from the aluminum crush washer.

It's the pan, not the block. The area of the drain plug isn't going to be susceptible to expansion/contraction. Viton will work just fine, it's already being used as valve stem seals and other higher temp, moving part areas. A drain plug doesn't even compare.

http://www.dupontela...asp?article=BMW

If you scroll down here, you can see they actually make viton/metal oil plug washers.

http://www.oildrainplug.com/index.htm

[hahnmgh63]

Just looked mine over and it looks like there is plenty of meat to just get a plug/bolt the next size up and tap the hole for it. Use a good copper or aluminum crush washer and it may seem anal but always use a Torque wrench when installing. Steel bolt into an Aluminum pan can easlily spell trouble.

[UTRacerX9]

You'll need to measure the size of the drain plug. I'm guessing the "bolt" part is about 15mm or so? Then just search for a washer online with an ID (inner diameter) that will fit. Here's one with a 3/4" ID that might work.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&q=viton+washer&gs_upl=6967l7470l0l8793l2l2l0l0l0l0l231l435l2-2l2l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1920&bih=1015&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7639183251312492377&sa=X&ei=lRddTteuJ_HfsQLS0O0B&ved=0CGUQ8wIwAg

[deilenberger]

It's the pan, not the block. The area of the drain plug isn't going to be susceptible to expansion/contraction. Viton will work just fine, it's already being used as valve stem seals and other higher temp, moving part areas. A drain plug doesn't even compare.

http://www.dupontela...asp?article=BMW

If you scroll down here, you can see they actually make viton/metal oil plug washers.

http://www.oildrainplug.com/index.htm

I'll agree "it doesn't even compare" - you're suggesting to use an O ring in a crush ring application. The O ring will be crushed flat, and start to creep out of the interface between the pan and plug. The link you provided shows designs like "Flanged Head w/ rubber o-ring under head" - NOTE rubber O-ring "UNDER" head - it's a recessed O ring, that will be partly compressed when the plug metal to metal surfaces bottom out. The other designs are using a rubber coated washer - not an O ring.

Hey - the OP can do as he wants, but from someone who designed lots of equipment that used O ring seals - using it under the existing pan bolt/crush-ring without a recess for the ring - isn't a correct application for it, and is going to fail.

BTW - I'll have to think about adding "racer" in my username.. it seems so authoritative.

[t6pilot]

Dimple magnetic drain plug may be your answer tapered at the base uses no washer installed on my 2009S no leaks

[UTRacerX9]

I'll agree "it doesn't even compare" - you're suggesting to use an O ring in a crush ring application. The O ring will be crushed flat, and start to creep out of the interface between the pan and plug. The link you provided shows designs like "Flanged Head w/ rubber o-ring under head" - NOTE rubber O-ring "UNDER" head - it's a recessed O ring, that will be partly compressed when the plug metal to metal surfaces bottom out. The other designs are using a rubber coated washer - not an O ring.

Hey - the OP can do as he wants, but from someone who designed lots of equipment that used O ring seals - using it under the existing pan bolt/crush-ring without a recess for the ring - isn't a correct application for it, and is going to fail.

BTW - I'll have to think about adding "racer" in my username.. it seems so authoritative.

No, I'm not suggesting to use an O-ring. It's a washer specifically made for this purpose. There's even a picture of it in the link I posted, which I guess you completely skipped over.

Oh, and so far... don't add racer to your user name until you've earned it. :rolleyes:

[jplumlee]

do you have a link to what you used? I'm not familiar with these so any info would be much appreciated.

Dimple magnetic drain plug may be your answer tapered at the base uses no washer installed on my 2009S no leaks

[jplumlee]

so I've looked around but still not sure what I'm looking for ( I REALLY appreciate any help or direction) the ID on the bolt is 17mm and the OD is 22mm. (the actual aluminum crush washer is 18mm ID and 23mm OD) I've tried to find what you were talking about with those specs but no luck so far...

more bad news... on the plug that's leaking, an 8mm hex will not grab enough to break it loose. any suggestions for removing it?

I'll agree "it doesn't even compare" - you're suggesting to use an O ring in a crush ring application. The O ring will be crushed flat, and start to creep out of the interface between the pan and plug. The link you provided shows designs like "Flanged Head w/ rubber o-ring under head" - NOTE rubber O-ring "UNDER" head - it's a recessed O ring, that will be partly compressed when the plug metal to metal surfaces bottom out. The other designs are using a rubber coated washer - not an O ring.

Hey - the OP can do as he wants, but from someone who designed lots of equipment that used O ring seals - using it under the existing pan bolt/crush-ring without a recess for the ring - isn't a correct application for it, and is going to fail.

BTW - I'll have to think about adding "racer" in my username.. it seems so authoritative.

No, I'm not suggesting to use an O-ring. It's a washer specifically made for this purpose. There's even a picture of it in the link I posted, which I guess you completely skipped over.

Oh, and so far... don't add racer to your user name until you've earned it. :rolleyes:

Edited August 31, 2011 by jplumlee

[UTRacerX9]

Here's an example of a metal/viton washer. This won't work for you, it's a bit too small, you'll just need to google search for viton washers for the right size.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Banjo-Bolt-Seal-X4-M12-M14-Viton-Dowty-Bonded-Washer-/150645447178?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item23132b1a0a

Now, you could use an all viton washer, with the aluminum crush washer with it, but using one of these specialty washers is much better.

[deilenberger]

No, I'm not suggesting to use an O-ring. It's a washer specifically made for this purpose. There's even a picture of it in the link I posted, which I guess you completely skipped over.

Oh, and so far... don't add racer to your user name until you've earned it. :rolleyes:

Saw them - they are a real "maybe" - they might work if the metal part of the washer crushes enough that the rubber insert can seal. It's still a bodge (google if you haven't heard the term.) The right way is to fix the damage to the drain flange.

And I'm curious - what sort of racing qualifies you to use "racer" in your user name? My racing was mostly on motorcycles and sailboats, both of which are great instruction on the properties and use of different materials..

[UTRacerX9]

Do you own a string of McDonald's to have "berger" in your last name?

A "maybe" solution is a lot better to try first than to spend 8+ hours removing the drain pan and spending a hefty chunk of change on a new pan and fluids. I'm confident it will work.

[jplumlee]

I really like your confidence... I just wish I could locate some of these. I've looked everywhere but can't find them in the size I need.

(I still have to get the old drain plug out before I can try it) any suggestions?

Do you own a string of McDonald's to have "berger" in your last name?

A "maybe" solution is a lot better to try first than to spend 8+ hours removing the drain pan and spending a hefty chunk of change on a new pan and fluids. I'm confident it will work.