Non Turbo to Turbo options

[tccack]

Hi all...

I have a 2002 C2 996 Trip car, that I am looking to revitalise in the power department.

I would really like a turbo car (996 manual) but given the cost difference here in Australia between my cars value and what I can have to pay for a suitable turbo car, its making financial sense to retro fit a turbo engine to my car.

I understand that the MY02 trip transmission is the same unit as fitted to the 996 turbo models, so I figure that the gearbox and balance of driveline should be retained. Essentially giving me a 2WD Turbo Auto which could be fun :-)

Apart from the addition of the complete turbocharged engine assembly and the third radiator I cant see much in it.

The advantage I think is that I would have a rebuilt engine installed versus the 57,000 km orginal engine.

What do you guys think of the idea?

Do you think this is a logical choice?

Am I going to bastardise the car and have resale value issues? (I would retain the original engine assembly ideally)

I dont really want to turbocharge the existing engine as the rebuild and the kit pretty much just equates to a factory spec turbo motor I think.

Thanks in advance for any pearls of wisdom or flames thrown at the idea.

[logray]

I would sell the car and buy a turbo. There is much more to a turbo than just the motor and gearbox. Better cooling, better suspension, etc. etc. etc.

But... if the financial doesn't make sense and you are dead set on more power, the only thing I would consider in this department is to supercharge it.

http://www.vf-engineering.com/vf_old/996-34.htm

There are a couple members here who have SC their NA 996's with good success.

[demosan]

Hi all...

I have a 2002 C2 996 Trip car, that I am looking to revitalise in the power department.

I would really like a turbo car (996 manual) but given the cost difference here in Australia between my cars value and what I can have to pay for a suitable turbo car, its making financial sense to retro fit a turbo engine to my car.

I understand that the MY02 trip transmission is the same unit as fitted to the 996 turbo models, so I figure that the gearbox and balance of driveline should be retained. Essentially giving me a 2WD Turbo Auto which could be fun :-)

Apart from the addition of the complete turbocharged engine assembly and the third radiator I cant see much in it.

The advantage I think is that I would have a rebuilt engine installed versus the 57,000 km orginal engine.

What do you guys think of the idea?

Do you think this is a logical choice?

Am I going to bastardise the car and have resale value issues? (I would retain the original engine assembly ideally)

I dont really want to turbocharge the existing engine as the rebuild and the kit pretty much just equates to a factory spec turbo motor I think.

Thanks in advance for any pearls of wisdom or flames thrown at the idea.

As the previous poster states, there is more to a turbo than just the motor differences. If you ever have any tendencies to track the car ( even auto-X's) the turbo has wider wheels and the beffier brakes and wider rear axle that would put you at a disadvantage when competing with other factory turbo's. Most important to me would be the factory turbo has a better engineered oil sump and is also less prone to IMS problems. If you wetre here in the states it would be a "no-brainer" to wait for a factory turbo to come up on the sales block. In Australia much more difficult........................... Good Luck in whatever you choose to do!! Demosan My $.02 :cheers:

[rogerjohnsen]

I've never done it but apparently it's possible to upgrade your existing engine with an aftermarket kit. Seems like this would be a potential option for you...

[tccack]

I would sell the car and buy a turbo. There is much more to a turbo than just the motor and gearbox. Better cooling, better suspension, etc. etc. etc.

But... if the financial doesn't make sense and you are dead set on more power, the only thing I would consider in this department is to supercharge it.

http://www.vf-engineering.com/vf_old/996-34.htm

There are a couple members here who have SC their NA 996's with good success.

The SC option is certainly attractive and quite cheap given the current exchange rate USD:AUD.

[Gator]

I suspect there are a number of threads that will provide a lot of insight to this question (search is always my friend), but it happens that I was brousing just last evening through the Enhancing Performance chapter (chapter 11) in Adrian Streather's 996 The Essential Companion. I don't think I've seen many references to Adrian's book on this site, and as it is fresh in my mind, I'll share his thoughts. In the perforance chapter he reviews a number of potential modifications. In the Turbocharger sub-section (pg 535) he states: "The normally aspirated, fully water-cooled enginers types M96/01/02/04 and the 03 are not suitable for turbocharging, so this type of modification should never be considered; in theory a 996 GT-3 type M96/76/79 could be turbocharged."

Unfortunately, he doesn't outline specifically why.

In the Supercharger section on the following page he does admit that supercharging is a viable option for the fully water cooled engines but points to the significant costs and suggests one read and fully understand the warranty.

A number of times in the chapter, Adrian points to cost, risk, and what you may or may not get in return for your money and suggests one just buy a 996 Turbo car instead.

For what it is worth, I feel the same way.

btw, I have really enjoyed this rather sizable book and recommend it to all 996 owners.

[whall]

+1 for Porche 996 The Essential Companion.

Bill

[tccack]

Well thats some excellent food for thought. I guess I'll be better off just waiting for the right 996 turbo or GT3 to come along.

I'll have to check amazon for this book too, sounds like a good read.

[RyanDarr1979]

i have an 03 c2 with the evo/vf engineering supercharger kit installed, and I love it. The kit is overengineered with stock reliability, oem install and 996tt performance as primary goals. I have 35k miles and the car runs like a top. The kit also comes with a chargecooler to cool the charge before entering the throttle body. For $11k-$13k USD, you get +120 hp/80 lbft (150 hp/90 lbft on 3.6 engine) with a relatively modest 6psi boost. With the kit and a performance exhaust, I am at about 480 hp. They also reset the redline to 7k rpms and remove the soft limiter and top speed gov. Dont expect 996tt deliverability though, as the kit is designed to provide the increase in the mid range (3k to redline) as opposed to the turbo's monstrous low end torque delivery. Whatever you decide to do, best of luck...

[pete95zhn]

Old post, but because of interesting topic I decided to comment. Because of OP's location and thus hefty taxes (am I correct?) and high prices on OEM turbos installing a turbo engine into a Carrera body might be an viable option. But that requires DIY capabilities and attitude.

Technically, while the car is a '02 model and Tiptronic, it is not that difficult as you might expect. Some details about this:

-transmission: no need to change

-drive shafts: turbo might have beefier, but in any case normally aspirated has different than turbo or tipped NA (which has the same lenght as tipped turbo)

-cooling: Tip already has that third cooler in front. Rear hosing needs to be changed

-electronics: Instrument cluster must be changed because NA measures oil level in a different way than a turbo. Then there's the boost gauge. BUT '02 already has CANbus, so no problems there. HVAC stays. DME. Now this is the question...with a suitable piggyback computer you could control the boost without changing the DME because both '02--> and turbo have the same ME7.8. Some minor things there with programming, wiring and pinouts, but PM me if you're interested. Anyway if you install turbos's DME you need to change to C4's/turbo's ( with correct part MY) ABS/PSM pump in order to get the system working. 2WD PSM doesn't discuss with 4WD DME. This needs PIWIS programming with all correct codes.

-IC's will fit into OEM positions, but you'll need aftermarket rear bumper for outlets. Cool air ducting is the issue there

-Engine carrier (rear) must be modified to fit NA's body. Alternatively you must modify the body to install turbo's unmodified parts.

-few minor changes to fuel and vacuum lines

-beefier fuel pump is a must. At least if you're going to use 5 bar FPR. OEM pump will die within months. And if it survives the car will run lean if it's tuned...even more so if there's bigger turbos.

Then there's the thing with suspension and brakes. Buy a set of used GT3 brakes and a new aftermarket (Bilstein, H&R, KW3 etc) set of GT3 suspension. And GT3's roll bars.

If you don't track the car then consider using air-to-water intercooling. Proper system is sufficient for normal driving and occasional pulls, that way you can use OEM rear bumper (but need to modify turbo's OEM exhaust) and retain OEM stealthy looks.

Been there, done that. '00 C2 (OEM Aerokit) with '01 turbo engine and transmission, fully operational PSM.

Financially I'm still about €15K below turbo's cost, but I haven't counted the hours. And suspension and brake mods were done before the engine anyway.

[phillipj]

Can we see pictures please? :jump:

[pete95zhn]

A quote from last spring:

Today was a club race day and between practice and races there was a chance to get also others than racers corner weighed. So what I got?

First the starting point, Sept '09.

Front: 281 / 270,5

Rear: 481,5 / 458,5

Total 1491 kg, including 86 kg of driver and 15 liters of fuel = net 1393 kg. With 300 hp that was 4,64 kg/hp

Today

Front: 299 / 300

Rear: 504 / 462

Total 1565 kg, including 91 kg of fat and 55l of fuel = net 1430 kg. With 420 hp that is 3,4 kg/hp.

So the net addition of engine and transmission change was only 37 kilos! ( Both measurements were done with the same equipment. ) OK, lighter wheels equal around 15kgs... BTW, how much does a std 996 turbo weigh?

I still have front sports seats and rear seats , Hi-Fi audio system ( whatever that means ) , AC, GSM phone with HF.... If all that audio would be deleted along with rear seats and lighter front seats and thinner carpeting installed I could get it close to 1380 kgs.

Rear seats are now deleted, a full gage ordered as well as Cobra Suzuka seats. GT3 clubsport carpeting wainting to be installed. Next weighing is interesting.

As per request, few pics of different stages of this project. And more to follow. Also here's a link to the car in action:

It's a video where you can see my car too... A buddy catches me at Adenauer-Forst, I was stuck ( until Kesselschen ) behind a 997 turbo which was shy to take over slower ones... Then we catch a friend at Karussell who started his lap from Breidscheid ( Adenau ) gate. He was supposed to be on a warmup lap without helmet, but after seeing who's tailgating he floored too...driving a Manthey M415 GT3.

Edited March 5, 2012 by pete95zhn

[jml3p]

wait wait wait - is the best bit

[jjb7]

I own a 99 NA Cab with Tip. I asked a freind about converting to a manual gearbox. He said "just buy another car". He'd did it on his Boxster. There are so many little things too replace.

Turbo: you will also need to get a different airbox and exhaust system to handle the increased air flow. Any increase in HP requires an increase in airflow. Its chemistry not magic.

Turbo on a NA engine? Too high compression ratio.

Supercharge a NA engine? A great way to boost the low end. I am thinking about too.