Cayenne 2008 3,6L V6 -- Ethanol conversion kit

[ttamas]

Does anyone have any experience with any Ethanol conversion kit?

There are certain Ethanol E85 advantages such:

--less pollution

--better performance

--ethanol price

Thank you so much in advance,

Ted

[JFP in PA]

Does anyone have any experience with any Ethanol conversion kit?

There are certain Ethanol E85 advantages such:

--less pollution

--better performance

--ethanol price

Thank you so much in advance,

Ted

I hate to let the wind out of your sails; however, I would not touch an aftermarket kit to convert any vehicle, much less a Porsche, to use ethanol.

First, true "E85" vehicles have an entirely different fuel system in them, in some cases including a different fuel tank. All mild steel and certain alloy components must be changed for stainless steel, including the fuel lines that run the length of the car. The fuel pump and injectors are different, and it runs an entirely different DME mapping. Most aftermarket conversion kits sell for hundreds of dollars, OEM parts to do a real conversion sell in the thousands, without labor. And all you need it to leave out one part that needs to be changed, and the car will strand you, or worse.

Ethanol has about one third less energy than gas, so to propel the vehicle in the same manner; you will need about one third more fuel. Fuel mileage? What fuel mileage? As for performance, I'd suggest you test drive an OEM E85 vehicle on gas and then E85, the performance sucks, which is why E85 has not caught on in the mainstream, and stations that sell it are few and far between here.

[UTRacerX9]

Some of what you've said is correct, but not all. Fuel mileage will go down dramatically, but the gas is cheaper so it's a trade off. As far as performance goes, if you have larger injectors and a bigger fuel pump to meet the demand, then E85 will give you about a 10% increase in horsepower vs gasoline at the same air volume. You would also need to tune the car with a different fuel map. As far as replacing things goes, any injector will work, there's no special E85 only injectors out there, same goes for the fuel pump. None of it needs to be stainless steel either.

As far as track cars go, E85 is becoming VERY popular. A friend of mine locally converted his Stealth Twin Turbo to E85, we both have the same upgraded turbos, except he's now putting out about 45 more horsepower than I am.

[JFP in PA]

As far as replacing things goes, any injector will work, there's no special E85 only injectors out there, same goes for the fuel pump. None of it needs to be stainless steel either.

Sorry, but that is not correct. E85 has a tendency to cause corrosion due to water entrainment in the fuel, leading to severe problems with injector, fuel lines, and components such as the pump, which also may not be able to deliver enough E85 fuel to begin with. Most to the seals and o-rings in the fuel system that are meant for gas will also tend to swell and leak, leading to additional issues.

We have seen more than one "attempted" E85 conversion in the shop, most of the aftermarket kits simply do not hold up because they do not go far enough.

As far as making more power and costing less, we have not seen that either. EtOH is about 1/3 lower in specific BTU output compared to gas, so if you have to use more just to get back to where you were, it is going to have to cost one Hell of a lot less, prices which I have not seen. And unless the vehicle was E85 from the factory, you also have to factor in the cost of the conversion over the miles run on E85, which will further impact the economics

Edited August 24, 2011 by JFP in PA

[wvicary]

Not to mention the amount of pollutants created in the manufacturing of E85. I would stay away from such a kit.

[UTRacerX9]

As far as replacing things goes, any injector will work, there's no special E85 only injectors out there, same goes for the fuel pump. None of it needs to be stainless steel either.

Sorry, but that is not correct. E85 has a tendency to cause corrosion due to water entrainment in the fuel, leading to severe problems with injector, fuel lines, and components such as the pump, which also may not be able to deliver enough E85 fuel to begin with. Most to the seals and o-rings in the fuel system that are meant for gas will also tend to swell and leak, leading to additional issues.

We have seen more than one "attempted" E85 conversion in the shop, most of the aftermarket kits simply do not hold up because they do not go far enough.

As far as making more power and costing less, we have not seen that either. EtOH is about 1/3 lower in specific BTU output compared to gas, so if you have to use more just to get back to where you were, it is going to have to cost one Hell of a lot less, prices which I have not seen. And unless the vehicle was E85 from the factory, you also have to factor in the cost of the conversion over the miles run on E85, which will further impact the economics

You may not have seen it at your shop, but it is correct. The pump may need to be upgraded, this is true, but there's no special "E85" pump out there. When going with a larger injector, using some Viton O-rings is all that is needed. Fuel lines would only need to be changed if they are aluminum (most cars are not, nor is the fuel tank usually aluminum.)

Ethanol is proven to make more horsepower at the same volume of air flow if enough fuel can be supplied. That is a fact. After you equalize the fuel volumes required, you're left with gasoline having an octane rating of a max of 92-93, while Ethanol is 102. It's like running race gas vs regular fuel, and that is where the horsepower increase comes from. Cost is relative... For a Porsche, upgrading to larger turbos can be much more cost prohibitive than by swapping in larger injectors/fuel pump and tuning the car to run E85.

[JFP in PA]

"Fuel lines would only need to be changed if they are aluminum (most cars are not, nor is the fuel tank usually aluminum.)"

And how many OEM's are using "aluminized mild steel" fuel lines these days as a hedge against situations when water gets into gas due to E10? More than you might imagine.......

"Ethanol is proven to make more horsepower at the same volume of air flow if enough fuel can be supplied. "

Sure, if you pump enough EtOH into the engine, eventually you overcome the simple physical fact that EtOH is down 1/3 on specific heat output (read horse power) on a volumetric basis when compared to pump gas. In most parts of the country, that simply kills the economics'.

"For a Porsche, upgrading to larger turbo's can be much more cost prohibitive than by swapping in larger injectors/fuel pump and tuning the car to run E85."

Yet, for some completely strange reason, we regularly get inquiries or projects involving upgrading turbo's, but have never once even been asked about converting a performance vehicle of any make to run E85. Ever wonder why that is?

Considering the verbiage in the automotive trade press about "the only one's getting anything out of E85 are the corn farmers"; and the fact that more than one OEM is dropping or reducing the number of "Flex Fuel" vehicles from their lineups due to poor sales or their inability to get enough money for them, as are a lot of fuel retailers, it would seem that economics, often referred to as "the great equalizer", has spoken on the subject...............

On a track, a specifically prepared "ten-tenth's" car can make more power on EtOH than on gas, but that is a "cost be damned" environment. The street is an entirely different matter however.............

Edited August 26, 2011 by JFP in PA

[UTRacerX9]

[/i]Yet, for some completely strange reason, we regularly get inquiries or projects involving upgrading turbo's, but have never once even been asked about converting a performance vehicle of any make to run E85. Ever wonder why that is?

On a track, a specifically prepared "ten-tenth's" car can make more power on EtOH than on gas, but that is a "cost be damned" environment. The street is an entirely different matter however.............

You've answered your own question. You don't hear about converting Porsches because modding these cars costs 5-10 times more than your average car. It isn't because an E85 setup isn't a legitimate way to make more horsepower.

I've owned a few Porsches in my day, a Boxster S, 911 Carrera, and now a Cayenne S, and by and large, Porsche owners do not really tinker with their cars. And when I mean tinker, I mean upgrading turbos themselves, installing air/fuel controllers, boost controllers, even upgrading transmission pieces with 300M parts, or completely redesigning a factory piece with a more performance oriented design. The use of E85 is hardly well known among Porsche owners. It probably never will be either, it isn't easy to get around Porsche software for tuning, or rather, it isn't cheap.

If you really think that converting to E85 seems to be a complete waste of time, I'd suggest you go on some other internet forums for other car makes to read otherwise. For people that have easy access to an E85 pump, there's a lot of them interested in converting, or have already converted.

[UTRacerX9]

(Just to answer your cost question, the price of a gallon of E85 right now in TX is about $3. 93 Octane is about $3.70. Multiplying $3 by 1.33 to make up for the added fuel volume needed, comes out to $4... not much difference, considering the increase in performance of about 10%.)

Edited August 26, 2011 by UTRacerX9

[JFP in PA]

You've answered your own question. You don't hear about converting Porsches because modding these cars costs 5-10 times more than your average car. It isn't because an E85 setup isn't a legitimate way to make more horsepower.

I've owned a few Porsches in my day, a Boxster S, 911 Carrera, and now a Cayenne S, and by and large, Porsche owners do not really tinker with their cars. And when I mean tinker, I mean upgrading turbos themselves, installing air/fuel controllers, boost controllers, even upgrading transmission pieces with 300M parts, or completely redesigning a factory piece with a more performance oriented design. The use of E85 is hardly well known among Porsche owners. It probably never will be either, it isn't easy to get around Porsche software for tuning, or rather, it isn't cheap.

If you really think that converting to E85 seems to be a complete waste of time, I'd suggest you go on some other internet forums for other car makes to read otherwise. For people that have easy access to an E85 pump, there's a lot of them interested in converting, or have already converted.

Just so we are clear: We hear about extensively modifying Porsches everyday; along with our Merc, BMW, Ferrari, and Maserati customers as well; and with our domestic crowd. Not one has brought the subject up. Upgraded turbo's and associated gear, headers/exhaust systems, cams, reworked heads, intake manifolds, injectors, throttle bodies, total upgraded engine swaps, computer re-flashes, even the occasional nitrous set up; but no E85. Perhaps at the "complex carbohydrate adolescent" shop across town, but not here...................

Edited August 26, 2011 by JFP in PA

[UTRacerX9]

All of those customers are coming to you for performance upgrades, they aren't doing it themselves. And since you aren't recommending switching to E85, why would they request it? If they knew enough about E85 conversions they'd probably know enough to work on their cars themselves. It also doesn't appear that E85 is all that prevalent in your area yet either.

[JFP in PA]

As most, if not all of the customers (and potential customers as well) that approach us concerning upgrades or modifications to their vehicles are fairly astute and reasonably well read on the options available. The read the usual performance magazines and post on websites focused on their particular make and model. As such, they have been exposed to a lot of potential modifications, and usually start by asking about the relative merit of “A” over “B” or “C” pathway to more power/better handling, etc. Very few come to us clueless about what they want or need to do.

As for E85 availability, it was more prevalent sometime back than it is now, primarily due to slow sales. As tough as this economy is, station operators cannot tie up pumps and underground storage with fuel that simply does not move that quickly, so they converted their dedicated E85 equipment over to regular gas.

Just as a “by-the-by”, you are aware that Porsche released a document sometime ago (perhaps a year) cautioning owners about the corrosion problems associated with E10 fuels, recommending that 10% EtOH containing fuels should be subject to additive use (Stabil) at every fill up to limit these issues. Excellence Magazine did a write up on it………….

[UTRacerX9]

Ah yes, the same company that made coolant pipes out of plastic warned of corrosion problems you say?

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/162819-1st-700whp-corn-fed-e85-porsche-we-like-call-her-corn-horse.html

New fuel pump, larger injectors, AFPR, new fuel lines, and a tune = a lot more horsepower with the same turbos.

[JFP in PA]

Yawn......................... B)

Look, if you are so "had up" about using E85, be my guest. I see far better performance pathways for these vehicles, with fewer maintenance headaches, than high EtOH based fuels, particularly on engines that are not normally aspirated, and definitely not those with DFI.

In the end, it is your money, your vehicle, and your problem. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with your choices……….

Edited August 27, 2011 by JFP in PA

[UTRacerX9]

The original poster came in wanting info and experience with E85. It seems you are the one who doesn't agree with that choice, or have any experience with it.

[Loren]

The original poster came in wanting info and experience with E85. It seems you are the one who doesn't agree with that choice, or have any experience with it.

Keep it on topic and non-personal or this topic will be closed.

[JFP in PA]

The original poster came in wanting info and experience with E85. It seems you are the one who doesn't agree with that choice, or have any experience with it.

Actually, we do have experience with it, some with aftermarket conversion kits as well as with some of the OEM "Flex Fuel" setups, which I believe is what the OP was asking about, and what I based my comments on. So I would not say that my shop "doesn't have any experience" with the technology; we do, and it hasn’t always been as smooth or easy a route to cheap performance that some marketer’s would like you to think; which is also I also believe the OP wanted to know as well.

[deilenberger]

In an environment (BMW M cars) that I'm very familiar with - where owners always want more HP and tinker incessantly to try to get it - I've never heard of an E85 conversion. Not once. For a route to extra HP - I think it's a non starter unless you're building a track only vehicle.