"Breaking in" the DFI engine in the Carrera 2 2011

[KiwiCanuck]

The 911 Handbook is unchanging in its 4200rpm max, at light throttle,for 3000km/2000mi. But engines change, as do 'running in' processes. I do not like the idea of suddenly at 2001 mi beginning heavy throttle and high revs. So what IS the run-in distance? Sounds like it needs double [4000mi] that to allow/get linerly to 7400rpm and full throttle?

There are other ideas, sounding much more reasonable, that are unofficial, but involve Porsche engineers in the US and Canada, and that promote rev increases of ~500rpm every 500 km/mi, which brings the engine to 6500rpm by ~1500mi and close to full revs and throttle by 2000mi/ All the other things such as always with a hot engine, not sustained higher revs but variable gears and revs, acceleration and deceleration...taken as read.

Comments please...want to do this right...and forget the warrenty concerns at this engineering stage...please! We have seen nothing on this topic for a long time!

THanks KiwiCanuck

[number9ine]

The 911 Handbook is unchanging in its 4200rpm max, at light throttle,for 3000km/2000mi. But engines change, as do 'running in' processes. I do not like the idea of suddenly at 2001 mi beginning heavy throttle and high revs. So what IS the run-in distance? Sounds like it needs double [4000mi] that to allow/get linerly to 7400rpm and full throttle?

There are other ideas, sounding much more reasonable, that are unofficial, but involve Porsche engineers in the US and Canada, and that promote rev increases of ~500rpm every 500 km/mi, which brings the engine to 6500rpm by ~1500mi and close to full revs and throttle by 2000mi/ All the other things such as always with a hot engine, not sustained higher revs but variable gears and revs, acceleration and deceleration...taken as read.

Comments please...want to do this right...and forget the warrenty concerns at this engineering stage...please! We have seen nothing on this topic for a long time!

THanks KiwiCanuck

I've never seen a study of what happens when break-in procedure isn't followed, but gradual increase in the use of the powerband every 500 miles sounds like the common "internet wisdom" on the subject. I believe that an easy break-in is meant to help gently seat all the wear surfaces in the engine. After 2K miles, this should be neatly done even when following the 4200 RPM limit in your manual. After that, the heat produced from sudden hard driving will have less of an adverse effect on the engine internals because they'll all be at a broken-in tolerance, and are otherwise designed to handle the load.

I think that you can choose the Porsche method or the "I know a guy who says" method without any significant adverse effect. Just drive smooth and easy for that first 2K, and cool the car down appropriately before parking it. After 2K, hard driving is fine so long as it's still smooth.

Frankly, any revs above 4200 in second gear on are probably extralegal, so this discussion may be moot. ;)

Mark

[KiwiCanuck]

The 911 Handbook is unchanging in its 4200rpm max, at light throttle,for 3000km/2000mi. But engines change, as do 'running in' processes. I do not like the idea of suddenly at 2001 mi beginning heavy throttle and high revs. So what IS the run-in distance? Sounds like it needs double [4000mi] that to allow/get linerly to 7400rpm and full throttle?

There are other ideas, sounding much more reasonable, that are unofficial, but involve Porsche engineers in the US and Canada, and that promote rev increases of ~500rpm every 500 km/mi, which brings the engine to 6500rpm by ~1500mi and close to full revs and throttle by 2000mi/ All the other things such as always with a hot engine, not sustained higher revs but variable gears and revs, acceleration and deceleration...taken as read.

Comments please...want to do this right...and forget the warrenty concerns at this engineering stage...please! We have seen nothing on this topic for a long time!

THanks KiwiCanuck

I've never seen a study of what happens when break-in procedure isn't followed, but gradual increase in the use of the powerband every 500 miles sounds like the common "internet wisdom" on the subject. I believe that an easy break-in is meant to help gently seat all the wear surfaces in the engine. After 2K miles, this should be neatly done even when following the 4200 RPM limit in your manual. After that, the heat produced from sudden hard driving will have less of an adverse effect on the engine internals because they'll all be at a broken-in tolerance, and are otherwise designed to handle the load.

I think that you can choose the Porsche method or the "I know a guy who says" method without any significant adverse effect. Just drive smooth and easy for that first 2K, and cool the car down appropriately before parking it. After 2K, hard driving is fine so long as it's still smooth.

Frankly, any revs above 4200 in second gear on are probably extralegal, so this discussion may be moot. ;)

Mark

Thanks Mark, we appreciate your personal views on this topic.

Your reply appears well thought out, although your phrase regarding the alternate running-in philosophy, as being based upon "I know a guy who says" is not consistent with the theme we started. There it is countered by the words "Porsche engineers in the US and Canada".

This advice, provided to my service manager [they know each other], was 'unofficial' and no names were provided, but appear authentic.

Another indicator: the visit to our city by representatives of Porsche of Canada [which included the President thereof] last summer, with a selection of cars from Boxter to Panamera, for a "ride and drive" for invited customers [this to mark the opening of a new/first dealership in Saskatchewan]. All the cars were 'new', 2011 models; and the recorded miles driven were available. We were too busy driving or monitoring each model to check the values. But they left several cars with us at the dealership. The Cayman S, PDK, had only 1600 km on the odometer...~1000km. The instructor and leader of the event, a well known Canadian/International racing driver, gave no limit on the revs to be used, and the Cayman was frequently in the 5000rpm range. With free use of the PDK, 'red-line' was freqently used; and the programmed full throttle standing start, was demonstrated with the Cayman S and all the other cars.

So much for 'breaking in' the DFI engines... The Cayman S continues as a demonstrator for potential customers, who may use it fully, without the annoyance of 'by the manual driving'. It is running beautifully...

The matter of 'running -in' a Carrera/Cayman/Boxter DFI engine, remains open to interpretation.

Other insights and experiences are most welcome on this topic. I have used the alternate gradual increase of revs and throttle for all my cars over the last 20 years or so. My NSX's engine was inspected internally [at 50K miles/80K km], in search of a misfire, which turned out to be a faulty injector on one cylinder [which really should/could have been checked eralier in the search]. The engine was in perfect condition, with no signs of abnormality to pistons or cylinders...it was pronounced 'as new'. One reason for the deeper inspection was that a pending trade to a 2005 Carrera 2 was in process. The NSX, with the [inappropriately dreaded] auto-stik, but headers and sports exhaust, was almost as quick [delta 0.5/1.0 sec to 60/100 mph] and fast as the Carrera [which also was with headers and sports exhaust], once the latter was run-in. Our 997.1 was very fast and quick, compared with other local 911s. I rest my/our case.

Merci beaucoup,

ALanM, KiwiCanuck

[number9ine]

<cracks knuckles>

Thanks Mark, we appreciate your personal views on this topic.

Is this the Royal "we?" :)

Your reply appears well thought out, although your phrase regarding the alternate running-in philosophy, as being based upon "I know a guy who says" is not consistent with the theme we started. There it is countered by the words "Porsche engineers in the US and Canada".

My father has long instructed me to "believe none of what I hear, and only half of what I see." You have it on the authority of a service advisor at your local dealership, not from an engineer at Porsche. The colloquial form "I know a guy" certainly applies, although it was not intended as a remark to belittle the veracity of your service manager's engineer associates' claim, nor to strip your question of its relevance.

This advice, provided to my service manager [they know each other], was 'unofficial' and no names were provided, but appear authentic.

The Cayman S, PDK, had only 1600 km on the odometer...~1000km. The instructor and leader of the event, a well known Canadian/International racing driver, gave no limit on the revs to be used, and the Cayman was frequently in the 5000rpm range. With free use of the PDK, 'red-line' was freqently used; and the programmed full throttle standing start, was demonstrated with the Cayman S and all the other cars.

PCNA frequently provides fleet demonstrators for press use and "ride-and-drive" events. It is guaranteed that these cars are, ahem, driven like one stole them. Your instructor and event leader was likely paid to demonstrate the full capabilities of these wonderful vehicles, recommended break-in be damned.

So much for 'breaking in' the DFI engines... The Cayman S continues as a demonstrator for potential customers, who may use it fully, without the annoyance of 'by the manual driving'. It is running beautifully...

The break-in recommendation in the manual was written by a copy editor and approved by an attorney based on an assertion made by a committee of technical experts. I therefore predict the result has a gaping margin of error built in. There is no caveat in the manual that says "engine damage WILL occur and this vehicle will be inoperable should you exceed the recommended break-in." Certainly then, a binary answer of "it breaks" or "it doesn't" to the question of "what happens when the break-in recommendation isn't observed" is a logical fallacy. The phrase "your mileage may vary" comes to mind.

The matter of 'running -in' a Carrera/Cayman/Boxter DFI engine, remains open to interpretation.

Agreed; this should be expanded to cover "every engine in existence." I covered that in my first post, see "common internet wisdom." We're making more of it with every keystroke!

Other insights and experiences are most welcome on this topic. I have used the alternate gradual increase of revs and throttle for all my cars over the last 20 years or so. My NSX's engine was inspected internally [at 50K miles/80K km], in search of a misfire, which turned out to be a faulty injector on one cylinder [which really should/could have been checked eralier in the search]. The engine was in perfect condition, with no signs of abnormality to pistons or cylinders...it was pronounced 'as new'. One reason for the deeper inspection was that a pending trade to a 2005 Carrera 2 was in process. The NSX, with the [inappropriately dreaded] auto-stik, but headers and sports exhaust, was almost as quick [delta 0.5/1.0 sec to 60/100 mph] and fast as the Carrera [which also was with headers and sports exhaust], once the latter was run-in. Our 997.1 was very fast and quick, compared with other local 911s.

Great job on maintaining your cars! Now, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Correlation does not equal causation. Absent a public showing and analysis of the data that are prompting Porsche to suggest a 4200-rpm break-in, we really have no definitive answer to this question at all. Other insights and experiences that lack that data will be ill-served to settle this question for you/y'all.

I rest my/our case.

Same here, I/we am/are tired! It's been fun. :)

Mark

[KiwiCanuck]

Hello again to you all,

So far the response to our thread/theme of 'running in' the DFI engines in the Boxter/Cayman/ Carrera Porsches has been quite disappointing. Mark has provided two determined and conservative responses, that add nothing to this puzzle. No others...shame!

This is surely the most important process that we as drivers can participate in; and it is highly probable that strictly following the Manual will not be the best we can do for our magnificant new cars.

Surely from within our large number of Porsche-enthusiasts, and their even larger numbers of opportunities to seek wiser and informed [as in from very experienced techs,'car-guys' and engineers] additional insights, some enrichment of the stolid prose in the Manual must exist. I provided some of my information from others [to which number9ine assigns to me the mildly derogetory[spelling?] '"I know a guy who says" method' phrase]; personal experience [to which the responses are attempts at the use of logic [not helpful], and admission that he lacks "public showing and analysis of the data" [apparently]],we are left with nothing at all except to follow the manual. This leaves us with absolutely no idea as to how to drive the car after 2000 miles, except that we can then apparently immediately floor the throttle [once the oil is hot], and head for the red line at will and for hours at a time.

At a minimum we can claim that Porsche's advice to us is quite inadequate for...the PDK! Automatic mode 'sport' makes it almost impossible to follow the "manual's advice well"...hereafter MAW...as acceleration out of corners with modest throttle too often leads to high revs and very firm accleration [not MAW]...this because the throttle's movement is strongly not linear. 'Sport+' is so alarming in its programming, that it should be made inactive [electronically] until at least 2000 miles; and surely further, as such enormous changes in revs and thrust/high torque [not MAW at 2001 miles]after the tenderness of the manual's prescriptions, cannot possibly be good for the engine. The manual modes are less dangerous to new engines, but one can still occasionally be deceived into non 'MAW" conditions.

Sigh...and finally 'number9ine' writes that "Its been fun." Not...

Well the spring weather tomorrow will be fine and mild, so the A/S High Performance tires will warm up quite quickly [our next rant toward Porsche's advice/attitude/helpfullness is about the "tires" they install/provide and recommend]...and I can proceed with my "breaking in" [ouch!]of the Cayman S [Guards Red, BBS RS-GT, manual and PASM]. MmmH! Now what are the revs for 2000-2500 km...it will be 7000rpm at 3001km.

Enjoy the tedium and lack of engineering insight of the Driver's Manual [MAW].

KiwiCanuck

[Loren]

KiwiCanuck

You asked for opinions and got some. There is no reason to criticize the individuals that voiced their opinions. As a matter of fact that violates the Board Rules/Guidelines that you agreed to when you registered here.

Please keep your topics and posts on topic and not on individuals - or your participation will not be welcome here.

[wvicary]

What is wrong with just following the manuals advice? I can't see how you'd go wrong as I think Porsche knows what's best in the long run.

[CaptnCrash]

You know what's funny. We bought our 2011 911TT from one of the largest dealers in the country. The dealer knowing we had a 250 mile trip home all of it via freeway had the following advice : Keep the rpm's below 4500, don't run for a long period at the same rpm, use 4th, 5th, 6th and vary the rpms ... After 350 miles drive it like you're going to. We've used this same philosophy on all the new cars we've purchased and never had one that had oil consumption issues.

We pretty much followed that and we don't track the car, and don't red-line it. It's a 6spd manual so these things are very easy to control.

I changed the oil at 2500 miles. I measured the drain vs the manual and came within .2 quart. This is the second P car we have owned, and we broke the first one in pretty much the same way. It used a quart the first change then tapered off after that to very near zero usage after 4000 miles. 2.7L in a Cayman with a 5spd manual.

IMNSHO if you continuously red-line an engine, you will use oil, and you will wear it out sooner. Banging on the rev limiter continuously isn't a good thing regardless of how good the engine was initially. So I believe that in many cases consumption and/or early failure is largely a factor of use as opposed to quality. Before you flame me, notice I said "many" not most or all. Even race drivers can abuse or conserve their hardware. The really good ones conserve ;-)

--CC

Edited May 16, 2011 by CaptnCrash

[KiwiCanuck]

KiwiCanuck

You asked for opinions and got some. There is no reason to criticize the individuals that voiced their opinions. As a matter of fact that violates the Board Rules/Guidelines that you agreed to when you registered here.

Please keep your topics and posts on topic and not on individuals - or your participation will not be welcome here.

Loren

I see nothing harmful in the disgreements that two of us had. The readers can judge for themselves as to the value of the respective comments. I definitely did not 'criticize the individual' in any statement! I kept on the topic, and argued that a few responses provided were either not useful, or based on any engineering principles. The responses against my suggestions of flaws in the manuals statements, simply led to the inevitable conclusion that the manual and Porsche statements were [always] correct. I made more statements and arguments that the opposite was the case. Moving on...KiwiCanuck