Buying an 06 997 unseen

[joee76]

I put a deposit for a 997 Cab from an authorized Porsche dealer in another province (in Canada). They are going to shipped it across Canada over to my house. CarProof looks ok, and It is certified CPO. The dealer is on an island, so there isn't many indy shops I can take it to for a PPI. I have a new 2 years on the CPO, so I'm not too concerned about the engine, etc. But structural damage I'm a little worried a bit.

Do you think it's safe to buy unseen, or is it worth the $1200 6-hour flight to check it out ? They seem reputable, but even if I went there, I don't even know what to look for.

[1schoir]

I put a deposit for a 997 Cab from an authorized Porsche dealer in another province (in Canada). They are going to shipped it across Canada over to my house. CarProof looks ok, and It is certified CPO. The dealer is on an island, so there isn't many indy shops I can take it to for a PPI. I have a new 2 years on the CPO, so I'm not too concerned about the engine, etc. But structural damage I'm a little worried a bit.

Do you think it's safe to buy unseen, or is it worth the $1200 6-hour flight to check it out ? They seem reputable, but even if I went there, I don't even know what to look for.

If you did physically go there to look at the car, you would not necessarily have to know what to look for yourself. If your only concern is whether there has been a major accident, you could take the car to any body shop with a lift and have them check the undercarriage. If there is anything suspicious, they will spot it pretty easily, and, if necessary, they can also take measurements and compare them with the figures published by Porsche.

Another approach might be to tell the dealer your concern and to draft a side agreement to the contract that specifically provides that you will be afforded five days after delivery during which you can have the car inspected for any hidden major body damage. If such damage is found, you can be required to document the damage (with photos and a sworn affidavit from the body shop guy) before you are allowed to return the car, at the dealer's expense.

Since it's a 997, and it's a Cab, AND you are in Canada, I'm sure we are not talking about a minor purchase here, so it might be a wise idea to act with deliberation.

Regards, Maurice.

[joee76]

I put a deposit for a 997 Cab from an authorized Porsche dealer in another province (in Canada). They are going to shipped it across Canada over to my house. CarProof looks ok, and It is certified CPO. The dealer is on an island, so there isn't many indy shops I can take it to for a PPI. I have a new 2 years on the CPO, so I'm not too concerned about the engine, etc. But structural damage I'm a little worried a bit.

Do you think it's safe to buy unseen, or is it worth the $1200 6-hour flight to check it out ? They seem reputable, but even if I went there, I don't even know what to look for.

If you did physically go there to look at the car, you would not necessarily have to know what to look for yourself. If your only concern is whether there has been a major accident, you could take the car to any body shop with a lift and have them check the undercarriage. If there is anything suspicious, they will spot it pretty easily, and, if necessary, they can also take measurements and compare them with the figures published by Porsche.

Another approach might be to tell the dealer your concern and to draft a side agreement to the contract that specifically provides that you will be afforded five days after delivery during which you can have the car inspected for any hidden major body damage. If such damage is found, you can be required to document the damage (with photos and a sworn affidavit from the body shop guy) before you are allowed to return the car, at the dealer's expense.

Since it's a 997, and it's a Cab, AND you are in Canada, I'm sure we are not talking about a minor purchase here, so it might be a wise idea to act with deliberation.

Regards, Maurice.

Maurice, many thanks for taking time to reply. I'll definitely add that clause in the deal. Not sure what the reference to Canada meant, but ya, we definitely PAY more for our Porsche's here !

I can't imagine them putting up a stink about this, since they should be confident that there has been no structural damage after their 'extensive' CPO process. There was an insurance claim for $3000 on the carfax (car-proof in Canada), but it doesn't have any details about the incident. For all I know, it was just a paint job for a scratch or something, which is what they suspect.

[1schoir]

Maurice, many thanks for taking time to reply. I'll definitely add that clause in the deal. Not sure what the reference to Canada meant, but ya, we definitely PAY more for our Porsche's here !

I can't imagine them putting up a stink about this, since they should be confident that there has been no structural damage after their 'extensive' CPO process. There was an insurance claim for $3000 on the carfax (car-proof in Canada), but it doesn't have any details about the incident. For all I know, it was just a paint job for a scratch or something, which is what they suspect.

Joe:

If the dealer has any hesitation about adding a reasonable clause along the lines that we discussed, that would raise a red flag for me.

I know that you guys pay more for Porsches up in Canada, but there are lots of Porsches for sale all the time. It pays for you to get one that gives you that peace of mind, as that's one less thing to worry about.

When you finally get it (or another one) home, post some pics. We love pics!

Regards, Maurice.

[joee76]

Joe:

If the dealer has any hesitation about adding a reasonable clause along the lines that we discussed, that would raise a red flag for me.

I know that you guys pay more for Porsches up in Canada, but there are lots of Porsches for sale all the time. It pays for you to get one that gives you that peace of mind, as that's one less thing to worry about.

When you finally get it (or another one) home, post some pics. We love pics!

Regards, Maurice.

So this what the dealer said they would add to the Bill of Sale:

As far as the inspection, the BOS will read like this

"Sold as Certified Pre-owned, fully inspected, full carproof disclosed and accepted by buyer, No undisclosed structural damage "

If your independant inspector finds Structural damage that has not been disclosed, then we will discuss how to remedy the situation so that you are happy and we are happy too.

Is that fair enough ?

[rob545]

Joe:

If the dealer has any hesitation about adding a reasonable clause along the lines that we discussed, that would raise a red flag for me.

I know that you guys pay more for Porsches up in Canada, but there are lots of Porsches for sale all the time. It pays for you to get one that gives you that peace of mind, as that's one less thing to worry about.

When you finally get it (or another one) home, post some pics. We love pics!

Regards, Maurice.

So this what the dealer said they would add to the Bill of Sale:

As far as the inspection, the BOS will read like this

"Sold as Certified Pre-owned, fully inspected, full carproof disclosed and accepted by buyer, No undisclosed structural damage "

If your independant inspector finds Structural damage that has not been disclosed, then we will discuss how to remedy the situation so that you are happy and we are happy too.

Is that fair enough ?

That sounds very ambiguous. Unfortunately, one must view a bill of sale as a contract, and contracts define how things get handled when things go wrong. The "we will discusss how to remedy" line is pretty much worthless make you feel good text. Need to explore having a third party inspect that car for you. 99% chance all is well, but you know, someone has to be the 1 in 100, protect yourself!

[1schoir]

Joe:

If the dealer has any hesitation about adding a reasonable clause along the lines that we discussed, that would raise a red flag for me.

I know that you guys pay more for Porsches up in Canada, but there are lots of Porsches for sale all the time. It pays for you to get one that gives you that peace of mind, as that's one less thing to worry about.

When you finally get it (or another one) home, post some pics. We love pics!

Regards, Maurice.

So this what the dealer said they would add to the Bill of Sale:

As far as the inspection, the BOS will read like this

"Sold as Certified Pre-owned, fully inspected, full carproof disclosed and accepted by buyer, No undisclosed structural damage "

If your independant inspector finds Structural damage that has not been disclosed, then we will discuss how to remedy the situation so that you are happy and we are happy too.

Is that fair enough ?

Not even close.

In the first sentence, they are asking you to certify that you have made an independent decision to accept CarProof as a trusted source for anything that might be wrong with the car.

Nevertheless, all of that could be fixed with just replacing the language in the second part of the second sentence to read as follows:

"...then we will remedy the situation so that you are made whole."

That would not be my first choice if I were drafting the clause, but it's one that they should not have a problem with. By that language, you are only asking them to guarantee that what they are claiming they are selling to you is what you are actually buying. In other words, you would not be offering the price that you have agreed to pay if the car actually had "undisclosed structural damage".

Trust me when I tell you that in the unlikely event that the car does not check out, it is not legally possible for you to be happy when the dealer already has your money, with the language they are proposing.

Right now you have all of the leverage because they still don't have your money. If you are going to get some language in there that will protect you, you have to do it before you fork it over.

Don't get lost in the details. There are only two possibilities here: 1. If they have nothing to hide, they should not have any qualms about agreeing to this. 2. If they bought a car that may have sustained damage that they don't know about, that should not end up being your problem (or your loss).

You are not asking for anything that is commercially unreasonable.

Regards, Maurice.

[joee76]

That sounds very ambiguous. Unfortunately, one must view a bill of sale as a contract, and contracts define how things get handled when things go wrong. The "we will discusss how to remedy" line is pretty much worthless make you feel good text. Need to explore having a third party inspect that car for you. 99% chance all is well, but you know, someone has to be the 1 in 100, protect yourself!

Thanks for your insight ! I fully agree. I ended up having a 3rd party indy shop do a PPI on it. I found the guy on a PCA forum and he's well respective and an active member of the PCA in that region. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is that the town is so **** small, that they all know each other and I hope to God that there are no kick backs of some sort just to make the sale go through.

[joee76]

Joe:

If the dealer has any hesitation about adding a reasonable clause along the lines that we discussed, that would raise a red flag for me.

I know that you guys pay more for Porsches up in Canada, but there are lots of Porsches for sale all the time. It pays for you to get one that gives you that peace of mind, as that's one less thing to worry about.

When you finally get it (or another one) home, post some pics. We love pics!

Regards, Maurice.

So this what the dealer said they would add to the Bill of Sale:

As far as the inspection, the BOS will read like this

"Sold as Certified Pre-owned, fully inspected, full carproof disclosed and accepted by buyer, No undisclosed structural damage "

If your independant inspector finds Structural damage that has not been disclosed, then we will discuss how to remedy the situation so that you are happy and we are happy too.

Is that fair enough ?

Not even close.

In the first sentence, they are asking you to certify that you have made an independent decision to accept CarProof as a trusted source for anything that might be wrong with the car.

Nevertheless, all of that could be fixed with just replacing the language in the second part of the second sentence to read as follows:

"...then we will remedy the situation so that you are made whole."

That would not be my first choice if I were drafting the clause, but it's one that they should not have a problem with. By that language, you are only asking them to guarantee that what they are claiming they are selling to you is what you are actually buying. In other words, you would not be offering the price that you have agreed to pay if the car actually had "undisclosed structural damage".

Trust me when I tell you that in the unlikely event that the car does not check out, it is not legally possible for you to be happy when the dealer already has your money, with the language they are proposing.

Right now you have all of the leverage because they still don't have your money. If you are going to get some language in there that will protect you, you have to do it before you fork it over.

Don't get lost in the details. There are only two possibilities here: 1. If they have nothing to hide, they should not have any qualms about agreeing to this. 2. If they bought a car that may have sustained damage that they don't know about, that should not end up being your problem (or your loss).

You are not asking for anything that is commercially unreasonable.

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks Maurice. Yes, after I received their wording (in blue), I called up a local shop to perform a PPI on it (as I indicated in my reply to Rob). I asked the dealer to drop off the car with this indy shop (owner is a well respected PCA member), who I spoke to on the phone. I haven't heard back from either the dealer or the shop. The only money on the table is my $5000 deposit, which is on my credit card to hold the car. I haven't signed anything yet, so I'm assuming, as with all dealers I've dealt with, that my deposit is fully refundable. They said they needed $5000 and 2 pieces of ID to draft up the bill of sale.

Thanks for all your valuable advice. I'm a total noob when it comes down to buying used cars and this is my biggest purchase yet, so I'm super paranoid and want to make sure all my bases are covered.

Edited April 12, 2011 by joee76

[1schoir]

Thanks Maurice. Yes, after I received their wording (in blue), I called up a local shop to perform a PPI on it (as I indicated in my reply to Rob). I asked the dealer to drop off the car with this indy shop (owner is a well respected PCA member), who I spoke to on the phone. I haven't heard back from either the dealer or the shop. The only money on the table is my $5000 deposit, which is on my credit card to hold the car. I haven't signed anything yet, so I'm assuming, as with all dealers I've dealt with, that my deposit is fully refundable. They said they needed $5000 and 2 pieces of ID to draft up the bill of sale.

Thanks for all your valuable advice. I'm a total noob when it comes down to buying used cars and this is my biggest purchase yet, so I'm super paranoid and want to make sure all my bases are covered.

Joe:

You are not being super paranoid.

You are following the "caveat emptor" doctrine and doing your best to avoid any surprises which would tend to seriously cut into your enjoyment of the car.

Regards, Maurice.

[silverbullete55]

Joee76, considering that the CDN dollar is strong, you may consider purchasing from the US, primarily in CA. CA has a high supply. I did this a couple of months ago. Purchased a highly optioned CPO 2006 911 C4S Cab with 17,300 miles sight unseen and delivered to a shopping mall close to my home, streets were too tight for the transport to deliver to my home. The price was very good even with the GST and duty. Arranged my own transport and customs broker. This was a very pain free experience. Contact Raphael at Circle Porsche, Long Beach, CA. He is very good and trustworthy.

[dphatch]

The clause the dealer is willing to include doesn't protect you at all should something be found amiss after they get your money and while $ 3000 for repairs wouldn't go very far on a modern Porsche it's still unexplained and worthy of further exploration before finalizing a deal. IMHO.

[joee76]

Joee76, considering that the CDN dollar is strong, you may consider purchasing from the US, primarily in CA. CA has a high supply. I did this a couple of months ago. Purchased a highly optioned CPO 2006 911 C4S Cab with 17,300 miles sight unseen and delivered to a shopping mall close to my home, streets were too tight for the transport to deliver to my home. The price was very good even with the GST and duty. Arranged my own transport and customs broker. This was a very pain free experience. Contact Raphael at Circle Porsche, Long Beach, CA. He is very good and trustworthy.

I've thought about this option for months already. I've been looking at other cars for sale in CAD that were US imports and they have been on the lot for ages...I think it'd be hard to sell a US car in Canada unless it was priced really aggressively. I guess to me, I wasn't sure how long I'd keep this car and selling a US car may be a headache.

Here's the car I have left a deposit on: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/911/VICTORIA/British%20Columbia/5_9867683_CT20041026145235706/

I'm in at $58,600 which includes shipping to Toronto. Major service done, clutch replaced (updated IMS in the process)..PPI turned out really good...but it did show a minor leak in the RMS, which I'll have serviced under warranty. There's also an existing lien on it which they said Porsche will clear it today.

The only flaw is the $3000 insurance claim, which is unexplained. I actually have the person's contact info and was thinking about calling him to get the details. Do you think that'd be creepy ?

Then this popped up: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/911/CALGARY/Alberta/5_9205347_20060510081117400/

More heavily optioned, but no warranty and obviously a good chunk more $

After reading more and more about these cars, I just would not own a 997 without warranty.

Maybe I've been reading waaaaaayyyyy too much lol

[phillipj]

That is a very wise decision.....

[joee76]

The clause the dealer is willing to include doesn't protect you at all should something be found amiss after they get your money and while $ 3000 for repairs wouldn't go very far on a modern Porsche it's still unexplained and worthy of further exploration before finalizing a deal. IMHO.

I called off the deal. I noticed that they had sent me a carfax that was over 1 year old !!!! It wasn't even updated. Anyways, the updated carfax indicated had front end damage, not a door ding or bumper ding as they had guesstimated. Total lack of disclosure on their end. They didn't even try to get an answer for me.

Thanks for everyone's advice.

[1schoir]

The clause the dealer is willing to include doesn't protect you at all should something be found amiss after they get your money and while $ 3000 for repairs wouldn't go very far on a modern Porsche it's still unexplained and worthy of further exploration before finalizing a deal. IMHO.

I called off the deal. I noticed that they had sent me a carfax that was over 1 year old !!!! It wasn't even updated. Anyways, the updated carfax indicated had front end damage, not a door ding or bumper ding as they had guesstimated. Total lack of disclosure on their end. They didn't even try to get an answer for me.

Thanks for everyone's advice.

Joe:

Definitely the right decision, IMO.

It's pretty clear now why they were parsing words on the language that they proposed for the Bill Of Sale. Pat yourself on the back for being an informed buyer!

There are plenty of Porsches out there. You may as well get one that is honestly represented!

Regards, Maurice.