Engine jumping time?

[ogun228]

My car is a 2005 996 C4S with tip. Last Thursday, while stopped at a red light, the engine shuddered and died. All my efforts to restart it were for nought although it turned over. After a tow to my nearest Porsche dealer and the New year delay, this a.m, the service adviser informed me that the engine somehow jumped time and that it will need disassemby to determine the cause. It gets interesting as the car is a CPO under Porsche warranty and I'm told that since I have an aftermarket audio system (Pioneer AVX), some readings can't be had from the PCM and until disassemby and no determination can be made as to PCNA's responsability for repair and or engine replacement. Car has currenly ~16k miles. Any comments or advice? Thanks

[txhokie4life]

My car is a 2005 996 C4S with tip. Last Thursday, while stopped at a red light, the engine shuddered and died. All my efforts to restart it were for nought although it turned over. After a tow to my nearest Porsche dealer and the New year delay, this a.m, the service adviser informed me that the engine somehow jumped time and that it will need disassemby to determine the cause. It gets interesting as the car is a CPO under Porsche warranty and I'm told that since I have an aftermarket audio system (Pioneer AVX), some readings can't be had from the PCM and until disassemby and no determination can be made as to PCNA's responsability for repair and or engine replacement. Car has currenly ~16k miles. Any comments or advice? Thanks

Well unless your after market stereo was played too loud -- there is no way it caused your engine to loose timing :-)

Sounds like an IMS problem to me.

Mike

[CaptnCrash]

My car is a 2005 996 C4S with tip. Last Thursday, while stopped at a red light, the engine shuddered and died. All my efforts to restart it were for nought although it turned over. After a tow to my nearest Porsche dealer and the New year delay, this a.m, the service adviser informed me that the engine somehow jumped time and that it will need disassemby to determine the cause. It gets interesting as the car is a CPO under Porsche warranty and I'm told that since I have an aftermarket audio system (Pioneer AVX), some readings can't be had from the PCM and until disassemby and no determination can be made as to PCNA's responsability for repair and or engine replacement. Car has currenly ~16k miles. Any comments or advice? Thanks

Well there's 2 ways to look at this. If they're setting you up for "because you have an after market radio we're not going to fix your engine" then they will have to prove that the radio caused the engine failure. Dumb move on PCNA's part for sure. The law is very, very clear here.

If it's because they can't get a complete data dump for P because of the radio and they need to do a visual inspection to determine the actual cause and submit that to P then that actually sounds reasonable.

It would seem logical to me that as long as you've done the maintenance you should be good to go. 16K miles is pretty low if the engine was maintained for that kind of failure unless there's been some horrendous abuse, or a real parts defect.

--CC

Edited January 3, 2011 by CaptnCrash

[phillipj]

They are actually saying that the aftermarket audio may void your warranty on the engine?????? Are you freakin serious? You have to fight this my friend...

Do you have a good relationship with your dealer? My servivce manager at my dealer wouldn't dream of pulling that kind of crap with me...

[jgriffin56]

In California, unless the modification directly caused the defect in the operation of the vehicle, there is no problem with the warrantly. Your dealrer may just have to disconnect he radio to get his specs on the engine....da. Your dealer is liar and an cheat. You should fight this with all you have, since you are in the right. Get a lawyer if you need to!

[JFP in PA]

My car is a 2005 996 C4S with tip. Last Thursday, while stopped at a red light, the engine shuddered and died. All my efforts to restart it were for nought although it turned over. After a tow to my nearest Porsche dealer and the New year delay, this a.m, the service adviser informed me that the engine somehow jumped time and that it will need disassemby to determine the cause. It gets interesting as the car is a CPO under Porsche warranty and I'm told that since I have an aftermarket audio system (Pioneer AVX), some readings can't be had from the PCM and until disassemby and no determination can be made as to PCNA's responsability for repair and or engine replacement. Car has currenly ~16k miles. Any comments or advice? Thanks

This has to be this week’s “dumbest dealer explanation for a possible IMS issue”…………..

[Loren]

This has to be this week's "dumbest dealer explanation for a possible IMS issue"…………..

+1

[ogun228]

This has to be this week's "dumbest dealer explanation for a possible IMS issue"…………..

+1

Well, I just came back from the dealer's and to be fair, he hasn't explicitly said anything about PCNA not honoring the warranty but has definitely left the door opened to that possibility, mentioning readings of overev ect...I have never seen an overrev as when the rpm's reach redline, the Tip automatically upchanges.

All maintenance has been up to date and oil changes done at 5k miles intervals.

I don't think, based upon my readings here and in other forums that it's an IMS/RMS issue as there was no noise accompanying the event, as I said, stopped for a red light and the engine shuddered and died.

I will update this topic as I get more info.

The car was on a lift and a tech was working on it as I could see. I am reserving judgement.

Thanks all.

[txhokie4life]

This has to be this week's "dumbest dealer explanation for a possible IMS issue"…………..

+1

Well, I just came back from the dealer's and to be fair, he hasn't explicitly said anything about PCNA not honoring the warranty but has definitely left the door opened to that possibility, mentioning readings of overev ect...I have never seen an overrev as when the rpm's reach redline, the Tip automatically upchanges.

All maintenance has been up to date and oil changes done at 5k miles intervals.

I don't think, based upon my readings here and in other forums that it's an IMS/RMS issue as there was no noise accompanying the event, as I said, stopped for a red light and the engine shuddered and died.

I will update this topic as I get more info.

The car was on a lift and a tech was working on it as I could see. I am reserving judgement.

Thanks all.

I don't know for a fact -- but the overrevs that can be read out of a duramatic have been explained to me as

two levels.

One where the rev limiter has been hit - and really isn't an over rev per se.

The second is the one of concern -- and usually implies a down shift based over rev.

Type 1's should not be an issue.

mike

[RFM]

It is true that Porsche demands a vehicle readout, performed with a PIWIS and send on line, before it may be started with some work under warranty terms. If this is not possible due to circumstances may a problem arise, although soluble, they can claim the DME to read out much more in detail than a dealer can do with a PIWIS. Hope the DME is still stock in this case. Anyway it's not certain that the engine is lost, a failing fuel pump is also possible, think positive, the show is not over until the fat lady sings.;)

[ogun228]

The SA told me that they have eliminated the obvious, i.e fuel pump failure and/or clogged or ruptured fuel lines. In any case I did not smell fuel at the time of the incident. When I was at the dealer, they were draining the oil to take the engine out. The tech looked at me with sympathy when he intuited that the car was mine...Not very reassuring.

[CaptnCrash]

The SA told me that they have eliminated the obvious, i.e fuel pump failure and/or clogged or ruptured fuel lines. In any case I did not smell fuel at the time of the incident. When I was at the dealer, they were draining the oil to take the engine out. The tech looked at me with sympathy when he intuited that the car was mine...Not very reassuring.

Please keep us informed as the saga continues.

--CC

[ogun228]

I just got off the phone with the service Mgr and as far as I understand, it is the IMS after all.

Apparently, there was something to do with the timing and although there were no noises and/or leaks,

the conclusion is that the engine will be replaced. The Svce Mgr did give me some grief for the after-

market sound system( Pioneer AVX) that prevented them from getting specific info on the engine but they could see

that there was no evidence of overrevving etc... although he acknowledged that this has nothing to do with the engine.

Bottom line a new engine has been ordered and it looks like PCNA will

assume all costs.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed as the process while under way is not quite completed

Edited January 12, 2011 by ogun228

[phillipj]

Great news! :clapping: As it should be with a CPO car for cryin out loud...

[JFP in PA]

The Svce Mgr did give me some grief for the after-

market sound system( Pioneer AVX) that prevented them from getting specific info on the engine but they could see

that there was no evidence of overrevving etc... although he acknowledged that this has nothing to do with the engine.

I'd still like to know exactly what the Hell your aftermarket stereo has to do with their inability to read the DME...................

[phillipj]

I'd still like to know exactly what the Hell your aftermarket stereo has to do with their inability to read the DME...................

agreed....

Edited January 12, 2011 by phillipj

[slbates]

You cannot overrev a tip. Surely Porsche knows this. Even if you rapidly downshift multiple times, the tip logic will only downshift when safe to do so.

[JFP in PA]

You cannot overrev a tip. Surely Porsche knows this. Even if you rapidly downshift multiple times, the tip logic will only downshift when safe to do so.

True, but not the point; they are saying they cannot read the DME because of an aftermarket stereo system..............................which is totally ridiculous.

[ogun228]

Well, according to the Svce Mgr, the new(?) engine should arrive by week's end

and I'll probably get the car sometime in mid-week next week.

So, we'll see... Some of the things I'll be interested in finding out, beside the

inability to get a DME reading, is the exact cause of the engine failure as the guy

was kind of short on details. In addition, I'll ask about warranty(ies) on the new(?)

engine and how that will affect my CPO status, meaning will it be in addition to it

or separate.

So far, I don't have anything negative to say about the service provided by the dealer, only

that I am disappointed that a car with ~19k miles would suffer a type of failure that requires

an engine replacement. I would have thought that by 2005, the issues plaguing the 996 would have been

largely resolved. So much for that vaunted reliability.

[phillipj]

2005 was the worst engine build year for Porsche in their history. Many 05's have had problems. In 06 the engines were upgraded and much less prone to problems.. Glad you're going to get your car back!

[ogun228]

Update.

I just returned from the dealer and the engine is out of the car. The new engine will begin to be installed on Monday. All ancillary components, i.e alternator, hoses, air box etc will be canibalized from the "old" engine. After yesting, the assigned mechanic will drive the car and keep it overnight (I agreed to this) to insure that all'well. I'll probably get the car on Wednesday.

I asked a lot of questions especially as pertains to the diagnosis of the cause of failure. While I am disappointed in the answer, I do underrstand the underlying economics. When the overall cost of engine dismantlement and replacement is factored in, compared to the cost of simply replacing the engine is factored in, Porsche opted to simply replace it. The closest the dealership can come to a diagnosis is that something internal caused the engine to throw it's timing. Perhaps a timing belt breakage and/or a broken sprocket(?). Cost of new engine is ~17.2k plus install for a total of about 25K.

In any case the remanufactured engine will be installed. Now to the warranty: I was explained that the terms of the CPO warranty are such that any warranty will simply be whatever is left over from the original. In my case, another 6 months.

Nice part of the saga is that I was given a 2011 Panamera4 as a loaner. Very nice, very luxurious, has everything. It's a big car, very nice to drive but does not have the immediacy of the 911. PDK, start/stop, you name it. Outside views, whether outside mirrors or retrovisor is rather restricted but the car is smooth as hell, fast too. I could see myself in this car but am sure I would miss the rawness of the 911 not to mention a price of ~123k.

I will update this post next week when the C4S is returned.

Edited January 21, 2011 by ogun228

[JFP in PA]

The closest the dealership can come to a diagnosis is that something internal caused the engine to throw it's timing. Perhaps a timing belt breakage and/or a broken sprocket(?). Cost of new engine is ~17.2k plus install for a total of about 25K.

I was explained that the terms of the CPO warranty are such that any warranty will simply be whatever is left over from the original. In my case, another 6 months.

Did they tell you, "Perhaps a timing belt....."? Reason I ask is these engines do not have timing belts, the cams are chain driven................Yikes! If they said that, I would not hesitate to ask to speak with someone in authority................

I also thought all replacement engines had a 2 year warranty.................and they come from the factory very complete, so there should be very little “cannibalization” from the old one to the replacement.

Something ain't right here, starting with the fact they are not telling you what really happened....

Edited January 22, 2011 by JFP in PA

[slbates]

I agree with JFP. I happen to know for a fact the only thing that needs to be moved from the old engine (tiptronic) to the new is the water neck (see pic showing neck transferred to old engine for core return) on a factory reman. Seems like you are just getting a long block?? Didn't see this option available in the reman catalog

Edited January 22, 2011 by slbates

[phillipj]

Man this sounds really sketchy.. I would demand some answers. Like JFP said... Reman engines come complete and have a 2 year warranty!

Timing belt?:unsure:

Maybe the jets in the carbs were clogged as well :o..

Edited January 22, 2011 by phillipj

[ogun228]

Update...

I just returned from picking the car up. The dealer, Paul Miller Porsche in Parsippany, NJ was excellent. They succeeded in getting the information they needed from the PCM to satisfy Porsche NA's requirements. To do so they had to remove my aftermaket head unit and temporarily replace it with a CDR23...They got a reading and it was the Intermediate chain tensioner guide that broke with the result that the engine just shut off with the cam timings out of whack...They even showed me pictures of the internals with the metal debris within.

They told me that this is a first in their experience. The complete engine was replaced and the only part canibalized from the old engine was the air box cover. The cost to Porsche, $21,645.24 parts and labor.

It was explained to me that since all cost was borne by the manufacturer, the original warranty is the one that still covers the car; in my case for another 18 months. Had I had to pay for the repairs, I then would have a new 2 year coverage.

I spoke to the tech who did the work and he assured me that there is no break in necessary since all break in is done at Porsche.

All in all I have no complaints and only hope that this engine will last without any major problems.

Thanks to every one who offered encouragements and/or advice.

Edited January 29, 2011 by ogun228