996 - DISASTER

[JFP in PA]

DO NOT USE MOTORMEISTER! Do a quick internet search and you will ample find evidence of those that they have already screwed.............

If you really want it done right, contact Jake Raby at Flat Six Innovations.

Edited December 10, 2010 by JFP in PA

[phillipj]

Agreed .. DO NOT USE THOSE CROOKS! Jake is good and I have a reco for you in Orange County that does great work as well. PM me if your interested.. Stay away from Fabian Roock as well

Edited December 10, 2010 by phillipj

[txhokie4life]

I don't know what the percentages really are, but I can speak from my own experience. I recently had a IMS bearing failure on my 2003 911 with 59k miles on the clock. The vehicle has been well cared for and not tracked or abused. The bearing damaged the snap ring and welded it to the intermediate shaft, so the engine will probably need a complete rebuild, even though I shut the car down and soon as I heard the noise. As a more cost effective solution, I am considering Motormeister (no affiliation) in California to do the rebuild. Are there any other companies in the states that rebuild these engines?

thanks,

j

We can either do a rebuild for you or sell you a replacement --

I have several references if you go the rebuild route.

I have a three 996 engines already in flight --

One ready to go out the door is

an '02 with 30K miles -- IMSR, AOS, Water Pump, Belt, Plugs.

There was nothing wrong with the engine -- I bought it from an

estate that was in the midst of a boxster upgrade but

never got to the engine swap before the owner passed.

The reason I haven't sold any of the 996 engines is that we only sell engines

that are fully tested and our test mule for 996 engines

is not finished.

We've been too focused on customer rebuilds where we have the complete car to

actually get to the test mule.

contact me offline or PM me and we can talk details.

Mike in Austin, Texas

mike@lonestarrpm.com

512-560-4603

Edited December 10, 2010 by txhokie4life

[jroberts38]

thanks for the info!!

[RatboneRanch]

Low, and dubious........... "Had" two failures, or "only honored the warranty" for two failures? Not to cast aspersions, but I have absolutely no respect for aftermarket warranty firms, as most are renown for not paying out...............

I generally agree, but I did contact an warranty company before buying an Audi Allroad, and the advice they gave me dissuaded me from buying the car. They could have said "Sure, buy it, we'll be happy to cover it." But they were honest that the cars were money pits and best stayed away from.

[berty987]

The M96 and M97 engines have the same achillies heel in the design and position of the IMS , its bearing and the stub shaft carrier that positions it. Porsche have revised the design a number of times over the engines life culminating in a much larger single row bearing and more substantial stub shaft carrier. There seem to be fewer cases of IMS failure on the M97 variant than on the earlier M96 but putting it into context the number of failures versus the number of engines is still relatively small (probably 2-5 %). The isue with htis particular failure is that its both difficult to predict and sudden in its failure ,coulped to the fact it generally requires a new engine afterwards. There has been much speculation and debate as to why some cars suffer these failures and others do not but in the main there is no conclusive answer and little the owner can do to ensure that they never suffer this problem.

The only answer is to consider the IMS bearing and carrier an expensive but necessary consumable and replace with either an uprates bearing and carrier (such as the LN solution) or consider the cheaper alternative of replacing the bearing with a standard one (albeit without the orioginal grease seal) and fit an uprated stub shaft carrier. Due to differences in IMS shafts not all cars can enjoy these upgrades as a simple in situ retro fit , some will require a modified IMS shaft to accept the single row bearing which increases costs as the engine needs dismantling.

My advice is to consider the options carefully and either embark on the warranty route or preventitive maintennace if you feel you will lose sleep over the potential risk.

[A34735]

I'm glad I read this after I got my 996! It's a 1999, 63K miles, one owner since new. All scheduled services, including the belt, completed. Since I got it I've added 4K in 4 months (to and from work is a 90 mile round trip). Considering it's 11 years old, it feels like a new car (touch wood!): The oil is still so clear I have trouble seeing it on the dipstick...I never want to drive anything else!

Of course...if I find myself on the side of the road with a $20K bill, I'll let you know!

Added 20 Apr 2011.

Mileage now 73K (so I've added 10K since Sep 2011, about 9miles/day). Tracked it once, changed the oil 3X. Of 5 experts (2 Porsche dealers, 3 independent shops) 3/4 unuequivocally said don't worry, one said change it now. It purrs smoothly, hisses and whirs for 5 mins on cold mornings.

I add an update when I get up to 83K....but I have relaxed my guard a little lit....We shall seee....

Edited April 21, 2011 by A34735

[phillipj]

You should be fine...Enjoy it.. They like to be driven everyday......

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[judgejon]

porsche had a problem with chain tensioners in the sc's and earlier cars. I dont think the company took any particular steps to advise buyers about the issue. I think it was in '84 or 85 when the hydraulic tensioners came out, and most sc owners put them on, replacing the sealed unit tensioners. the hydraulic tensioners went on my car at 95k. main bearing issue necessitated a tear-down and rebuild at 160k. When I sold the car at 325k the engine was running strong. hope my c4s will do the same.... point is that there are problems with all makes, models, that hopefully get ironed out over time.

[ericyingling]

I don't know what the percentages really are, but I can speak from my own experience. I recently had a IMS bearing failure on my 2003 911 with 59k miles on the clock. The vehicle has been well cared for and not tracked or abused. The bearing damaged the snap ring and welded it to the intermediate shaft, so the engine will probably need a complete rebuild, even though I shut the car down and soon as I heard the noise. As a more cost effective solution, I am considering Motormeister (no affiliation) in California to do the rebuild. Are there any other companies in the states that rebuild these engines?

thanks,

j

I am still not clear on how Motor Meister got their reputation. I have researched them on boards like this, peilicanparts, bbb, etc... and there are lots of posts taking trash about motormeister WHO DID NOT ACTUALLY DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.... I found two separate individuals who claimed, first hand to be screwed by MM. All other posts seemed to be second, third or fourth hand information, which I consider to be hearsay.

If you get a rebuild from Jack Raby, you are most likely getting an engine that is as close to perfect as the m96 can be... he addresses all of the weak points of the factory engine, but at a price... I think he starts as $20K. At least that is what he quoted me a few months ago. This comes with a one year warranty.

I thinking there are some other options to consider before replacing your engine. At least somewhere between the perceived scale of "MotorMeister to Jake Raby/Flat 6" (Or, low end to high end).

May want to check out UFO motorsports or Strauss, both in Southern California.

[JFP in PA]

I, for one, can speak to the issue. We had a car come in that had recently installed a "totally rebuilt 3.2L" from them (Motormeister) that had failed shortly after being installed. First of all, it wasn't a 3.2L, it was a 2.7L; secondly, there appeared to be a lot of obviously used components in the assembly, along with some really agricultural assembly techniques. To me, that is more than enough reason to say "Run away!", they are less than a quality shop............

Edited December 26, 2010 by JFP in PA

[jol]

I don't know what the statistics are for 996 engine failures, but I can add my own experience to the mix.

I have a 2004 911 C4S with 45,000 miles on it, was never tracked, abused and was dealer maintained. The body and the interior of the car are immaculate. The following is a list of things of repairs that I consider beyond normal wear and tear; 3 RMS seals replaced under warranty (at: 4,300 mi, 11,850 and 16,250), front differentail replaced at 42,502 miles (not warranty, cost $4k), cracked cylinder liner at 45,000 miles. The last item killed the engine and I'm currently considering my options. A Porsche remanufactured engine lists for $18k+ and that's just for the engine. Salvaged engines seem to be rare and from what I have read in the various forums, the best rebuilder out there will cost me about the same as a Porsche remanufactured engine.

Do I love my Porsche? Yes.

Will I buy another one? Probably not.

[Dharn55]

I don't think anyone pays lists, or if they do they are being taken advantage of. Suncoast and Sunset sell the engines at attractive discounts. The challenge might be finding a dealer to install the Porsche engine that will give the discount. I think the engine has to be installed by a dealer for the warranty to be valid. Not sure on this though.

At $18,000 you might as well go to Jake Raby and get one of his engines, they start at about $18,000. The challenge there is I think he has a 6 month waiting list.

[A34735]

Ive added 10K to the '63K on it when bought in Sep 2011. Changed the oil 3 X since then. Still seems to running very well. Blackstone oil report came back clean, but dealer thinks water tank is leaking - levels haven't changed to my eys, nor has temperature increased... Will post again if and when I get to 83K...

I'm now lulled into a sense of security (4/5 experts - Porsche Dealers, independent repair shops - have advised they wouldn't do the IMS upgrade to their own cars at similar timepoints, mileages. So I'm going to keep plugging away...

PS my missus called me a 'race-car driving, skydiving, alcholic drug addict boy friend with a death wish' - Nicest thing she'd said in years. Thank you sweetie!

Edited April 21, 2011 by A34735

[phillipj]

Ive added 10K to the '63K on it when bought in Sep 2011. Changed the oil 3 X since then. Still seems to running very well. Blackstone oil report came back clean, but dealer thinks water tank is leaking - levels haven't changed to my eys, nor has temperature increased... Will post again if and when I get to 83K...

I'm now lulled into a sense of security (4/5 experts - Porsche Dealers, independent repair shops - have advised they wouldn't do the IMS upgrade to their own cars at similar timepoints, mileages. So I'm going to keep plugging away...

PS my missus called me a 'race-car driving, skydiving, alcholic drug addict boy friend with a death wish' - Nicest thing she'd said in years. Thank you sweetie!

She sounds special...:clapping:

[Rapewta]

18K for an engine when a person can shop around carefully and buy a 10 yr old 996 with only a couple of owners

for that price is crazy.

I have many passions and so I get on many forums that support my interests. One thing I have found is that

forums are like hospitals... You post your problems. The healthy (in this case) cars don't come up as much as

the ones with boo-boos. Me thinks that the 996 problem autos are a very small percentage of the ones on the road.

No stats... just my opinion.

[BlackC2]

At 90,000 miles my motor went on my 2002 996. #5 cylinder has coolant and oil has coolant too. I'd write it off if I hadn't replaced the Tiptronic less than 1,000 miles ago with a rebuilt one from Vertex ($3,500 plus $2,000 install), new Michelins ($1,200), new paint ($6,000).

I'm trying to find someone in the San Francisco area. Any ideas?

Flat Six Innovations is booked until April 2012.

Roock sounds questionable.

Suncoast wants a $15,500 for a reman from Porsche, but $17,000 for the core so I pay $32,000 until they approve my core and return all or part of the $17,000.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Alfieboy]

Not sure I understand the 17k for the core....are you certain on that? I just had a Porsche remanuf popped in by my indy in NJ and the core charge was $5,000 minus the shipping (which the indy handled for me as a core charge and then a core refund, I didn't hand over any money for the core handling). If it was 6 or 7k, I wouldn't offer my opinion, but 17k seems a big enough jump that it struck me as worth clarifying. I also didn't go for the rebuild, due to the time wait. The remanuf engin was available and installed in around 10 days.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Alfieboy

[phillipj]

I agree, I have never heard of a core charge like that. Unless Porsche has changed there polocies..:unsure:

[DaveFL1976]

I agree, I have never heard of a core charge like that. Unless Porsche has changed there polocies..:unsure:

It's true. I just got my car back from the dealer with a brand new engine with warranty. My '99 went kaput on I-95 two weeks ago. IMS bearing failed.

I looked at all my options (aftermarket reman, junk yard, trashing the car, or going w/ the dealer) and went with the new motor at the dealer route. The reman or used engines just wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzy feeling I was looking for, and I love the car and wasn't planning on getting rid of it anytime soon. The dealer told me they've only replaced 3 Porsche engines in the last 2 years, so failures are a rarity evidently.

Here's the breakdown:

3.4L 01 Carrera $34,283.28

Core Return -$17,745.33

Parts Discounts -$3429.00

Labor $1,754.95

Subtotal $14,863.90

TAX $891.83

TOTAL $15,755.73

The block is reman, but everything else is BRAND NEW and shiny. I considered going w/ a used one, but then knew with my luck I'd soon be replacing coil packs, water pumps, alternators, head gaskets, AOS, RMS, injectors, etc. So that's why I went with the new engine. It's ready to go, filled with oil and all new right down to the new headers. They tell me there's no break in period, but I'm going to take it easy for a week or two before I introduce her to the redline.

It really feels like a new car now. I could have saved $5 or $8k by going with a used motor, but I'm going to sleep better this way.

I just got it back yesterday and it sounds SOOO SMOOOTH and tight.

[A34735]

Ive added 10K to the '63K on it when bought in Sep 2011. Changed the oil 3 X since then. Still seems to running very well. Blackstone oil report came back clean, but dealer thinks water tank is leaking - levels haven't changed to my eys, nor has temperature increased... Will post again if and when I get to 83K...

I'm now lulled into a sense of security (4/5 experts - Porsche Dealers, independent repair shops - have advised they wouldn't do the IMS upgrade to their own cars at similar timepoints, mileages. So I'm going to keep plugging away...

PS my missus called me a 'race-car driving, skydiving, scuba-diving-alcholic-drug-addicted boy friend with a death wish' - Nicest thing she'd said in years. Thank you sweetie!

She sounds special... :clapping:

Even after 27 years together, she certainly is! :thankyou:

Now 16 months later, I'm at 91,000 miles.

At 75K I bit the bullet and had the L&N IMS upgrade installed (by Porsche of Fremont, who I trust completely. Unlike another local rascal...). They also replaced the RMS and a couple of other parts that could only be done with the engine out.

But hand on crotch (touch wood!) the car is still purring like a Swiss sewing machine. I drive as fast as I can whenever it's safe to do so (which is not often, I have no wish to endanger fellow road-users). Typically I will do 100-105/mph once a week, 105-130 mph once every 6 weeks and >150mph mabye once every 8 months). But it certainly gets redlined several times every day (I do 450 miles/week). I get the Mobil 1 oil changed and tested every 7.5K: the Blackstone labs reports are always perfect (and BTW, there was nothing wrong with the original IMS bearing).

I guess what I've learnt is owning a 911 is not the same as a Toyota Corolla. Whilst I'd have trouble justifying $120K on a new one, I don't have any trouble budgeting $5K/year for tires, brakes, rotors, oil etc...In exchange I've got a really nice car that cost the same as my Subaru Outback and is only 0.4seconds slower than comparable 2012 models. Thus far I estimate it's cost me about $1/mile, excluding gas. Mileage is about 20/gallon vs about 30/gallon for a boring 4 door saloon. I spend a little more than I need to everyday, but I never have trouble getting out of bed to go to work in the morning!

[phillipj]

Great post.. I love it...

[rwrsmart]

A34735 I'm with phillipj ~ great post particularly the last bit ~ I'm going for a drive now . . . .!

Edited July 15, 2012 by rwrsmart

[PESuazo]

Jesus, 18K for a new engine......with the same horse power

If my engine ever blows up (I hope it does not).......I would go to Renegade Hybrids, and have them install an LS3 engine for under 12K.....you gain over 100HP and save $$$.......now I am ready to be flamed......

Edited July 23, 2012 by PESuazo

[LikeMinds]

Well I actually logged on to Renntech because I'm having a problem with a window regulator on my 2000 996 C2 Cabriolet on which I am the second owner. I'm also the orginal owner of a 99 Boxster. But I happened on to this thread and just had to post.

I'm ALWAYs having some problems with my cars. Read on below if you want to know my personal favorites. That said, these two cars are without a doubt the very BEST cars I have ever owned in terms of driving AND MAINTENANCE. I have 146,000 miles on the Boxster. It sill has the ORIGINAL clutch! It still runs STRONG! And while I have done quite a bit of maintenance on it over the years... new water pump, new coolant reservoir, new serpentine rollers, new starter... these are what I consider normal wear and tear things. I have done NO major maintenance on the engine. And I have to say that the car has been pretty parsimonious on tires and brakes. I would go through three sets of tires and rotors on my wifes Audi A6 for every ONE set I put on the Boxster.

And my experience with my 911 is pretty similar. I now have 86,000 miles on it. It also has the original clutch. I did replace the RMS one time and I replaced the air mass meter recently. Other than that, ZERO engine maintenance. And I'm only on my second set of brakes!

Now, I imagine most of you are thinking... "well, he babies his cars." Not true. In fact, I drive them hard and even worse, post divorce, I'm now relegated to parking them outside most of the time!!! But they continue to be rock solid. I just have to wash them more often.

It's true that the IMS shaft failures tend to be catastrophic and therefore very dramatic and traumatic for their owners, but fearing to own a 986/996 and even worse slandering the car is simply not justified. The vast majority of 986/996s, probably 95% still on the road have their original engines intact and are still providing red line thrills for owners who appreciate them for the truly magnificent cars they are.

I've had a slew of other cars and motorcycles... everything from a 57 supercharged Studebaker Golden Hawk, Norton 750cc Combat Commando, 65 356SC, 68 Hemi Roadrunner, 68 Mustang 302 Toploader, etc. the list goes on and on. Many of them I worked on myself, when it was still possible to work on cars w/o being a computer geek. And I will never drive anything again but a Porsche. In my opinion, for the money, they are simply the best automobiles in the world. And I have found them to be very reasonable in terms of maintenance and upkeep,

Now do they have problems... Absolutely! Is the Porsche factory upfront about them. Not so much... For me, the most annoying and recalcitrant problems have been the ubiquitous airbag and check engine light problems in the Boxster which are both more or less Porsche factory design defects. I think most in this forum know both problems well. The wiring harness for the airbag/seatbelt safety system in early 986/996 cars was simply deficient. Porsche has come out with many TSBs and fixes but none of them is bulletproof as those with early 986s know. And the check engine light problem is really one of insufficient and innaccurate diagnostics. I along with many others have ended up replacing O2 sensors and air mass meters (because the PST reported them as the problem) when often as not the problem is really related to the oil separator system which Porsche dealers really don't like working on because the parts cost nothing but the effort involved in diagnosing and fixing the problem is nasty.

So, I for one would like to sing the praises of the 986/996. Great cars... I'm a proud owner of mine and plan on keeping them for as long they'll have me. Now back to getting that **** regulator and passenger window working right... It's part of the glory right?

Steve

2000 C2 Cabriolet

1999 Boxster

65 356SC (unfortunately deceased)