Help! Starter not operating properly

[mhall1019]

'02 turbo - I'm putting it back together after clutch and clutch slave replacement. The starter's been out of the car for 4 or 5 months. There are two issues - drive gear doesn't move into engagement position and the starter doesn't operate when the ignition key is in the "start" position.

I tested it in place by mistake by putting 12V on the lower 8mm lug on the starter with the big wire from the front of the car and the big wire from the rear of the car on that lug (the motor spun every time I connected the battery cables). The starter motor works and it does spin, but the drive gear doesn't seem to move into the engagement position. I'm assuming that when the solenoid is engaged, the start motor spins and the drive gear is supposed to extend.

When I wire the starter up the way I think its supposed to be, nothing happens when the key is turned to start position. I've got the big wire from the front on the lower 8mm lug on the starter, the big wire from the rear of the car on the upper 8mm lug and the small wire on the 6mm lug. With the key off, I've got 14V on both the big wire and the small wire from the front of the car. Logically, it seems like there shouldn't be power at the small lug unless the key is in the start position.

Nothing changes when I turn the key on - that is, 14V is not applied to the wire on the upper lug. I removed the starter from the trans and have it wired up with one of the mounting holes wired to the chassis for ground so I can check voltages.

What are my next troubleshooting steps?

Thanks for any ideas.

Mike

[1schoir]

'02 turbo - I'm putting it back together after clutch and clutch slave replacement. The starter's been out of the car for 4 or 5 months. There are two issues - drive gear doesn't move into engagement position and the starter doesn't operate when the ignition key is in the "start" position.

I tested it in place by mistake by putting 12V on the lower 8mm lug on the starter with the big wire from the front of the car and the big wire from the rear of the car on that lug (the motor spun every time I connected the battery cables). The starter motor works and it does spin, but the drive gear doesn't seem to move into the engagement position. I'm assuming that when the solenoid is engaged, the start motor spins and the drive gear is supposed to extend.

When I wire the starter up the way I think its supposed to be, nothing happens when the key is turned to start position. I've got the big wire from the front on the lower 8mm lug on the starter, the big wire from the rear of the car on the upper 8mm lug and the small wire on the 6mm lug. With the key off, I've got 14V on both the big wire and the small wire from the front of the car. Logically, it seems like there shouldn't be power at the small lug unless the key is in the start position.

Nothing changes when I turn the key on - that is, 14V is not applied to the wire on the upper lug. I removed the starter from the trans and have it wired up with one of the mounting holes wired to the chassis for ground so I can check voltages.

What are my next troubleshooting steps?

Thanks for any ideas.

Mike

Mike:

I just went through this on another car. From some of the symptoms you describe, you may also be having an issue with the ignition switch. You can test that with a 12V light to see if it lights up when you turn the ignition switch to "start".

If your drive gear is not extending, there is probably corrosion (from sitting around for 5 months) that is preventing the electromagnet from being energized and activating the gear. You could take the solenoid apart and clean off any corrosion and apply grease very sparingly in the correct spots by looking up an exploded diagram of a solenoid on the net.

The easiest way to test a starter these days is to take it to any Autozone or Pep Boys, where they will test it for free. They have a nifty setup in this machine that even the guys at these chain stores can't mess up. You can even get a printout showing you what the three critical values are, including the extension of the drive gear. Best of all, it's free.

I tried to test my starter in my garage and it was "working" and the drive gear was extending, but it was not consistent. The testers at the chain stores confirmed that I needed a new starter.

Regards, Maurice.

Edited October 13, 2010 by 1schoir

[mhall1019]

'02 turbo - I'm putting it back together after clutch and clutch slave replacement. The starter's been out of the car for 4 or 5 months. There are two issues - drive gear doesn't move into engagement position and the starter doesn't operate when the ignition key is in the "start" position.

I tested it in place by mistake by putting 12V on the lower 8mm lug on the starter with the big wire from the front of the car and the big wire from the rear of the car on that lug (the motor spun every time I connected the battery cables). The starter motor works and it does spin, but the drive gear doesn't seem to move into the engagement position. I'm assuming that when the solenoid is engaged, the start motor spins and the drive gear is supposed to extend.

When I wire the starter up the way I think its supposed to be, nothing happens when the key is turned to start position. I've got the big wire from the front on the lower 8mm lug on the starter, the big wire from the rear of the car on the upper 8mm lug and the small wire on the 6mm lug. With the key off, I've got 14V on both the big wire and the small wire from the front of the car. Logically, it seems like there shouldn't be power at the small lug unless the key is in the start position.

Nothing changes when I turn the key on - that is, 14V is not applied to the wire on the upper lug. I removed the starter from the trans and have it wired up with one of the mounting holes wired to the chassis for ground so I can check voltages.

What are my next troubleshooting steps?

Thanks for any ideas.

Mike

Mike:

I just went through this on another car. From some of the symptoms you describe, you may also be having an issue with the ignition switch. You can test that with a 12V light to see if it lights up when you turn the ignition switch to "start".

If your drive gear is not extending, there is probably corrosion (from sitting around for 5 months) that is preventing the electromagnet from being energized and activating the gear. You could take the solenoid apart and clean off any corrosion and apply grease very sparingly in the correct spots by looking up an exploded diagram of a solenoid on the net.

The easiest way to test a starter these days is to take it to any Autozone or Pep Boys, where they will test it for free. They have a nifty setup in this machine that even the guys at these chain stores can't mess up. You can even get a printout showing you what the three critical values are, including the extension of the drive gear. Best of all, it's free.

I tried to test my starter in my garage and it was "working" and the drive gear was extending, but it was not consistent. The testers at the chain stores confirmed that I needed a new starter.

Regards, Maurice.

Maurice - Thanks for the wisdom and advice. I'll take the starter to have it properly tested. I have wiring diagrams and I'm glad to see they've gotten away from current flow diagrams, but, for some reason, I don't find them very readable (there are just too many wires, no colored lines, and mystical off-page connections). I would like to draw out the starter circuit to see if I can figure out the things I don't understand:

Why is the primary 12V always there? Shouldn't it be switched?

Why is there 12V on the little wires all the time? Shouldn't they only be energized when the key is in the start position?

Is the big wire that goes to the back of the car going to / coming from Relay Panel 2 and what does it have to do with anything?

But, I'll begin with getting the starter checked, and then do due diligence on the wiring diagrams.

Thanks,

Mike

[1schoir]

Maurice - Thanks for the wisdom and advice. I'll take the starter to have it properly tested. I have wiring diagrams and I'm glad to see they've gotten away from current flow diagrams, but, for some reason, I don't find them very readable (there are just too many wires, no colored lines, and mystical off-page connections). I would like to draw out the starter circuit to see if I can figure out the things I don't understand:

Why is the primary 12V always there? Shouldn't it be switched?

Why is there 12V on the little wires all the time? Shouldn't they only be energized when the key is in the start position?

Is the big wire that goes to the back of the car going to / coming from Relay Panel 2 and what does it have to do with anything?

But, I'll begin with getting the starter checked, and then do due diligence on the wiring diagrams.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike:

A friend of mine came over today and we had the throttle body off his 2001 Boxster. That left the starter exposed, so I took a nice clear shot of the terminals and connections (click on the photo to blow it up):

That should give you a good guide to the connections on the back of your starter.

Regards, Maurice.

[mhall1019]

Maurice:

I could not locate any of the emails we had exchanged, so am replying here. You may remember that I did figure out how to wire the starter properly and then had problems with the key not operating the starter. Durametric said that the clutch switch was closed but immobilizer and start lock were open. So, as my final effort I bought an ignition switch - the whole thing - and was going to change it. As I started to remover the air duct to get access under the dash, a switch fell out attached with two wires. I had tucked it up there when working on the clutch spring and new clutch master. It was the "other" clutch pedal switch. The one that locks out the starter. When the switch was closed, the car started right up. No need to reprogram keys or any such thing. After such a painful effort at troubleshooting, the ability to start the car seems secondary; the real success is in no longer having to work on solving the problem.

I still don't understand why durametric reported the switch closed. I will have to see if the logic level is reversed now.

What a relief.

Thanks,

Mike

Maurice - Thanks for the wisdom and advice. I'll take the starter to have it properly tested. I have wiring diagrams and I'm glad to see they've gotten away from current flow diagrams, but, for some reason, I don't find them very readable (there are just too many wires, no colored lines, and mystical off-page connections). I would like to draw out the starter circuit to see if I can figure out the things I don't understand:

Why is the primary 12V always there? Shouldn't it be switched?

Why is there 12V on the little wires all the time? Shouldn't they only be energized when the key is in the start position?

Is the big wire that goes to the back of the car going to / coming from Relay Panel 2 and what does it have to do with anything?

But, I'll begin with getting the starter checked, and then do due diligence on the wiring diagrams.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike:

A friend of mine came over today and we had the throttle body off his 2001 Boxster. That left the starter exposed, so I took a nice clear shot of the terminals and connections (click on the photo to blow it up):

That should give you a good guide to the connections on the back of your starter.

Regards, Maurice.

[1schoir]

Maurice:

I could not locate any of the emails we had exchanged, so am replying here. You may remember that I did figure out how to wire the starter properly and then had problems with the key not operating the starter. Durametric said that the clutch switch was closed but immobilizer and start lock were open. So, as my final effort I bought an ignition switch - the whole thing - and was going to change it. As I started to remover the air duct to get access under the dash, a switch fell out attached with two wires. I had tucked it up there when working on the clutch spring and new clutch master. It was the "other" clutch pedal switch. The one that locks out the starter. When the switch was closed, the car started right up. No need to reprogram keys or any such thing. After such a painful effort at troubleshooting, the ability to start the car seems secondary; the real success is in no longer having to work on solving the problem.

I still don't understand why durametric reported the switch closed. I will have to see if the logic level is reversed now.

What a relief.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike:

That's what I call keeping at it until the job is done! There is nothing like persistence.

Think of that switch falling out as a gift from above! LOL!!!

Regards, Maurice.