IMS replaced, now throwing p1340 and p1341

[Fred Demara]

it's been over 200 miles since the IMS - seemed to have been running fine - then today, I felt a slight (what I can only describe as a misfire) rough idle at stop lights. Seems to be running fine - I reset the codes, and they came back within 20 miles.

Any advice or suggests are greatly appreciated, thanks

01 Boxster S tiptronic 77k miles

Edited August 25, 2010 by Fred Demara

[Loren]

P1340 Position of Camshaft in Relation to Crankshaft, Bank 1 – Above Limit

Only possible cause:

– Allocation of outlet camshaft to inlet camshaft incorrect

Note: This fault can be stored only if the engine was disassembled and the allocation of the outlet camshaft to the inlet camshaft was incorrectly set.

P1341 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 1 – Below Limit

P1341 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 1 – Above Limit

P1341 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 1 – Signal Implausible

Possible causes:

– Short to ground

– Open circuit in triggering wire

– Open circuit in B+ supply

– Actuator faulty

I suggest you take it back to where they worked on it.

[Fred Demara]

Thanks Loren

I removed the tipronic, then shipped the car to Jim Ellis Porsche in Atlanta - One of the notes I put down was, please advise if car needs to be re-timed after IMS installation...I believe I read somewhere that it would need re-timing, but the tech that did the IMS stated that re-timing was not needed because the car was never out of time.

I can not say thank you enough for your reply.

[JFP in PA]

Retiming is not required if the IMS change out is done correctly. As yours is a five chain motor, it should have been a relatively simple job to lock the engine down before changing the IMS. Without a full analysis of exactly how the service was done, it is difficult to positively connect the two incidents; but I have to add that if your cam timing is off, it would not be the first time I've seen this happen...............

[Fred Demara]

Retiming is not required if the IMS change out is done correctly. As yours is a five chain motor, it should have been a relatively simple job to lock the engine down before changing the IMS. Without a full analysis of exactly how the service was done, it is difficult to positively connect the two incidents; but I have to add that if your cam timing is off, it would not be the first time I've seen this happen...............

seems odd the cam timing would be off after 200 miles - it was a rather sudden event - one minute, it was fine - the next, rough idle. Had the IMS been done incorrectly, wouldn't have the engine thrown a code and started rough idling immediately?

one other question - if this were a faulty sensor, which sensor would I be looking for?

Thanks

Edited August 25, 2010 by Fred Demara

[JFP in PA]

Retiming is not required if the IMS change out is done correctly. As yours is a five chain motor, it should have been a relatively simple job to lock the engine down before changing the IMS. Without a full analysis of exactly how the service was done, it is difficult to positively connect the two incidents; but I have to add that if your cam timing is off, it would not be the first time I've seen this happen...............

seems odd the cam timing would be off after 200 miles - it was a rather sudden event - one minute, it was fine - the next, rough idle. Had the IMS been done incorrectly, wouldn't have the engine thrown a code and started rough idling immediately?

one other question - if this were a faulty sensor, which sensor would I be looking for?

Thanks

Normally, I would agree that it is a bit odd, however the 1340 code is pretty specific to the issue. What has me intrigued is that all the codes are to one bank, which means the relationship between the intake and exhaust cams on that bank is outside the limits. On a five chain motor, that is pretty much impossible as there is a short chain connecting the two cams on each head that should have never had tension relaxed during the IMS install, which is why the IMS upgrade is less problem prone on 2003 and earlier cars. I think it would be useful to have the car run on a PIWIS or Durametric system to see where the cams actually are; could be that the one bank has a dying VarioCam actuator, or a position sensor that is causing the problem. Hopefully, that is the problem, but if it is, you are not out of the woods just yet because the actuator can be fun to replace with the engine in the car…..

[Fred Demara]

Car is back at Porsche, I'll keep everyone posted - and I wanted to say thanks again to JFP and Loren for the info!

[Fred Demara]

Well, Jim Ellis Porsche of Atlanta called to say it might be an accutator, or it might have just "jumped time"...either way, it's 1300 just to remove the cover and take a look and figure out what's wrong. Which seems a bit odd, because (according to flat 6) the variocam job total is 1,000...

They also stated that the recent IMS job and the timing issue have no chance of being related.

The car is heading to another shop for another opinion.

[JFP in PA]

Well, Jim Ellis Porsche of Atlanta called to say it might be an accutator, or it might have just "jumped time"...either way, it's 1300 just to remove the cover and take a look and figure out what's wrong. Which seems a bit odd, because (according to flat 6) the variocam job total is 1,000...

They also stated that the recent IMS job and the timing issue have no chance of being related.

The car is heading to another shop for another opinion.

As I mentioned, going after the actuator is a time consuming job; that said, $1300 to just look at it is more than a bit much.................particularly when to check the allocation, all you need to do is set the engine at TDC and pull the two green plugs…………

Edited August 26, 2010 by JFP in PA

[Fred Demara]

is it possible for the car to "jump time" on the 1st bank? Seemed very odd...

[JFP in PA]

is it possible for the car to "jump time" on the 1st bank? Seemed very odd...

Yes, it is possible for only one bank to have jumped time. Each bank has its own chain run off the intermediate shaft, so if one chain became too loose during the IMS change out, and the cam was allowed to move due to valve spring pressures, it could jump time. This is why the engine is "locked down" prior to doing the IMS. As mentioned, the five chain motors are less prone to doing this than the three chain models, but they can still do it if the proper precautions are not taken……….

[Fred Demara]

Car is currently at Flat 6...had a chance to meet with Jake Raby, and it was an honor. The shop is off the beaten path, but once you're inside, you realize very quickly that flat6 is more like a lab than a shop.

Seems pretty unlikely that I could have driven the car 200 miles without triggering the p1340/1341 - for now, it's just a coincidence that it failed so soon after the IMS retrofit.

Bank 1 is out of time by 23 degrees - it's more than likely the engine will have to be replaced...but we're not positive yet. According to Jake, a guide rail might have gone, and he hasn't ruled out the accuator yet,

I'll keep everyone posted...and thanks again for the replies

[JFP in PA]

Car is currently at Flat 6...had a chance to meet with Jake Raby, and it was an honor. The shop is off the beaten path, but once you're inside, you realize very quickly that flat6 is more like a lab than a shop.

Seems pretty unlikely that I could have driven the car 200 miles without triggering the p1340/1341 - for now, it's just a coincidence that it failed so soon after the IMS retrofit.

Bank 1 is out of time by 23 degrees - it's more than likely the engine will have to be replaced...but we're not positive yet. According to Jake, a guide rail might have gone, and he hasn't ruled out the accuator yet,

I'll keep everyone posted...and thanks again for the replies

Good luck with it Fred, you've got it in the best hands possible.. These are the kind of issues that keep some people awake nights................ Is Jake refering to the chain tensioner guide?

Edited August 27, 2010 by JFP in PA

[Fred Demara]

.......... Is Jake refering to the chain tensioner guide?

I'm not sure...my head still hurts from all the possible things it could have been...could be a few weeks before I hear anything - Jakes shop was spilling over with failed engines, Boxsters and 911's...

[JFP in PA]

Reason I ask is because the failure of a tensioner guide will result in one bank jumping time.................

[Topless]

Reason I ask is because the failure of a tensioner guide will result in one bank jumping time.................

Sounds like the most likely possibility from what has been said so far. It may in fact be unrelated to the IMS retrofit work if the tensioner guide simply failed. 23 degrees out is a lot.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Topless

[JFP in PA]

Reason I ask is because the failure of a tensioner guide will result in one bank jumping time.................

Sounds like the most likely possibility from what has been said so far. It may in fact be unrelated to the IMS retrofit work if the tensioner guide simply failed.

Actually, they are somewhat related as you have to release the chain tensioners to do the IMS, then reset them afterwards………..

[Fred Demara]

Jake personally called me this afternoon - looks like the varicam needs to be replaced...he told me it didn't look like any bent valves....fingers crossed...very, very happy I took the car to flat6 - I'll keep everyone posted.

[JFP in PA]

Jake personally called me this afternoon - looks like the varicam needs to be replaced...he told me it didn't look like any bent valves....fingers crossed...very, very happy I took the car to flat6 - I'll keep everyone posted.

Fred, I am happy for you; replacing the VarioCam actuator is the least objectionable out come................

[Fred Demara]

Wanted to give everyone a recap (warning, this might be boring) hopefully it will help someone down the road.

01 Box S, tip with 77k miles. Was leaking oil (very tiny drops) about a month ago, so figured I'd do the IMS retrofit and RMS at the same time. I removed the tiptronic myself (I highly recommend NEVER removing your tiptronic), and had the car sent to Jim Ellis Porsche in Atlanta. For 410 bucks, they did the IMS and RMS. The car was towed home, and I re-installed the tiptronic, and drove the car for about 250 trouble free miles....

...then, while driving on the highway, I noticed the CEL, and at idle, it felt like it was "surging"...got codes p1340 and p1341

My first reaction (as with many here) was that the tech at Jim Ellis must have done the IMS incorrectly. In fairness, (and Jake confirmed this) if the dealership had done the job incorrectly, the CEL would have triggered immediately...it was just very bad timing (excuse the pun) that the CEL came on so quickly after the IMS.

As it turns out, it was the variocam (the accuator sp?)...Jake discovered a very small piece of debris had gummed it up. No bent valves, so engine doesn't need to be replaced (not yet, anyway).

If I could go back in time, I would have just had Jake do the IMS and RMS from the start. Not that the dealer did anything wrong, but just that Jake does SO much more than put the IMS in - they replace, test, drive and retest , and, of course, because Jake's level of knowledge is second to none.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

[Fred Demara]

on a side note....I spent a good amount of time at the dealership, sitting in the lobby, listening to customers come in. I heard no less than 4 people with PDK issues (not shifting out of 1st, thunking, hesitation). One woman's new 911 had less than 5k on it, and it would not shift....hopefully they're just ironing out the bugs.