Porsche Engine Problem

[Mera]

Hi all,

I need some help, I have a 2006 997 C2 with 52k on the clock. I live in the UK and the car has a full Porsche Service History. Yesterday evening, I took it for a spin and while on the highway/motorway at 70mph as I was accelerating slowly up hill, I heard a slight ticking noise from the engine and then the engine cut out. Literally it was 10 seconds before the engine cut out. The car had to be recovered and will not start. Airbag light shows, traction control light, brake lights, engine light and a red exclamation mark. Starter motor turns but it does not start (I have only tried once).

There are no oil leaks, it is dry as anything underneath and the on board computer shows oil at the max allowed level.

Any ideas?

Rgds,

[Loren]

Time to put either the Durametric software or a PIWIS tester on the car.

[Mera]

Loren, your help is very much appreciated.

I have an update, I tried to start the car and it turned and started, idling very rough, like a diesel. It also showed "PSM in diagnostic mode".

OBDII has only a single code: P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor A- Bank 1 Circuit Low Input

Is it major work to get to and replace these sensors? Shall I get the Porsche Dealer to diagnostic check it too? Can I drive it to the dealer who is 4 miles from my home.

Best Rgds

S

[Loren]

I would still put a PIWIS tester on it - I think it is something other than that sensor. It really sounds odd with the other lights on and PSM in diagnostic mode etc.

Driving will depend on how it is running - if you want to be safe have it transported.

[Mera]

I am taking your advice and getting transported. I am dreading that it is IMS failure, hopefully it is not that.

Thank you for your help and I will feedback the end resolution to the problem,

Rgds

S

[phillipj]

Your chances of an IMS failure in an 06 are very unlikely. I wouldn't be too concerned about that. Hope it turns out to be a minor problem.

[Mera]

OK, more investigation has been done and here is what I found:

All the previous warnings I was getting and the PSM in "Diagnostic Mode" turned out to be because the battery was low (it had been on the highway with hazard lights flashing for 3 hours until recovery truck arrived .... we live in the UK ).

Now I can start the car, it idles like a bad diesel and I think it is misfiring. No warning lights except a yellow engine management every now and again. Putting some pressure on the gas causes it to choke and stall.

OBDCII shows 2 codes. The first is "N/A" the second is "P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor A- Bank 1 Circuit Low Input".

Spoke to the Porsche Dealer and he said it is likely to be a coil and not the Camshaft sensor?

Any ideas appreciated.

Phillipj, many thanks for your warm support, looks like it might not be the IMS problem, perhaps I can thank my luck stars!

Best Rgds

Sam

[phillipj]

Sam,

Coil sounds like a likely suspect. They are known to crack and fail. They will produce all kinds of problems. Good luck and let us know once you get the car to your mechanic.

[akim47]

it may be the coil... my mech recommends changing plugs and coils at 40K...

[Mera]

Thanks to you all for a great response, I will update next week after the techs at Porsche have put it on the diagnostics machine and found the problem,

Best Rgds

Sam

[ziiz996]

Thanks to you all for a great response, I will update next week after the techs at Porsche have put it on the diagnostics machine and found the problem,

Best Rgds

Sam

I hope that I am wrong Sam (I really do); But your symptoms remind me the Intermediate Shaft failure that I had in my '00 3.4L at 52K. Replaced the engine with a Porsche new 04 3.6L. The only difference is that I heard a rattle before the engine went!

[Mera]

I really hope it is not IMS! If it is, it will be a total disaster. It does start but misfires horribly before cutting out. Dealer (without doing diagnostics) thinks it is probably one or more of the coils. It is due for a 4 year service so they will do that at the same time.

Car was transported to the dealer today and they have promised to look at it Monday.

Rgds

S

[txhokie4life]

I really hope it is not IMS! If it is, it will be a total disaster. It does start but misfires horribly before cutting out. Dealer (without doing diagnostics) thinks it is probably one or more of the coils. It is due for a 4 year service so they will do that at the same time.

Car was transported to the dealer today and they have promised to look at it Monday.

Rgds

S

If it is your IMS it would be unlikely to run at all -- not that it couldn't but unlikey -- especially for any length of time..

Mike

[Mera]

Car was transported to the Porsche dealer. They have had a look at it and the diagnosis is not good

Looks like the P0342 code was right and the cam on one side is not moving. The service rep said they took spark plugs out and turned the engine and could not see the cam moving. I am not sure they can do that, is it possible?

Next action recommended is to take the engine out and strip it down to see if the chain which drives the cam has snapped, although he reckoned if it had, it may have terminally damaged the engine.

Any advice appreciated or if you have seen this before, perhaps you can give me an idea on "what the possible outcomes are".

The service rep also told me that they have seen at least 3 cases like this on 996/997 engines over the last 3 years he has been working for Porsche and it is likely Porsche will contribute to the work but until the exact cause is known, we won't know.

Loren you said "I would still put a PIWIS tester on it - I think it is something other than that sensor. It really sounds odd with the other lights on and PSM in diagnostic mode etc". I wonder if you had this in mind?

Rgds

Sam

PS. The service rep confirmed the car had not been abused by over revving etc, which I can honestly say it has not.

[phillipj]

Sorry to hear that Sam. Sounds very unusual. Hopefully Porsche will make good on the repairs.

Please keep us updated..

[Mera]

Hi All,

Just a quick update. I visited the Porsche Dealer today and they showed me first hand that the left hand bank (cyl 1,2,3) (left side as you look at the back of the car) set of cams were both not moving when cranked.

This means the chain driving them has broken or come off. Possibly the variocam has seized?

I am amazed that the car was doing just below 70mph and was around 3000 revs when it happened. No warning at all.

Also amazing is that the car starts and idles rough on the other 3 cylinders.

Question now is how much damage has been done by the chain and whether to get it rebuilt or more likely its time for a new engine.

The garage said they had only ever seen this once before but in that case the cam had come thru the side of the engine. In my case, there is no external damage visible and no oil leaks.

Interestingly, there were 2 other 997 engines being rebuilt today, one with scored cylinders and one with a broken cam and manual gearbox issues.

Rgds

S

[phillipj]

Sounds like a new engine to me... Porsche always recommends a reman engine (even if there are other choices.) It also is quite likely that Porsche will give you some "good faith" on this one.. A very unusual failure.

Definetly push for Porsche to pay for this. Squeaky wheel gets the oil....

Please let us know what happens...

[PutPut6]

We have been seeing more and more cases of timing chain failure... I personaly have seen 4 in the past year, two 986s, one 987, and one 996. What we usually find is that one of the outter rollers on the timing chain somehow come loose, then get lodged into one of the cylinder head extraction pumps, locks it up, then breaks off the exhaust cam gear pump drive and then all the shrapnel is distributed throughout the engine. A Bank 1 failure can be especially bad since the intermediate shaft drive and chain are located on the same end of the engine as the Bank 1 timing chain.

[Mera]

PutPut6, thanks for such a great explanation. I am not a motor engineer/technician so my understanding is limited. Another motor engineer here in the UK has told me that the timing chains are not as good quality as they used to be and that he has seen complete disintegration of timing chains in 996 engines, but never in a newer 997. He thinks this was probably festering for a while with a timing chain which had a manufacturing weakness from the outset.

I have a tough choice here. We get just 2 years warranty and mine is out of it. Porsche GB are completely unsympathetic to blown engines unless the consumer had paid $2250 /yr for an extended warranty. So my dealer is rubbing his hands with glee, pushing me to sign off on a $12k engine replacement with a remanufactured unit (on which the dealer and Porsche GB are going to profit)

My engine still starts (and runs badly) on Bank 2 cylinders (4,5,6), has no external damage or oil leak. On that basis, do you think the internal damage will be limited to just the bank 1 chain and a few valves or do you think it will have taken the variocam and other major internals with it? Maybe you have seen an engine which starts but has bank 1 timing chain damage? Your honest opinion is most appreciated here.

I need to make a decision on new engine vs rebuild. If the damage is likely to be substantial then the new engine is probably a better option, otherwise I'd prefer a rebuild minus any involvement from Porsche GB.

Rgds

S

[PutPut6]

If it was me personally and I could afford it, I would get a new engine. It's piece of mind. If you go the rebuild route, it will cost atleast half the price of a new engine and if internal damage is found, such as cams, lifters, bent valves, damaged clyinder head, gouges in crank and intermediate shaft teeth... The cost of parts will get you close to a new engine. Each timing chain failure engine I've seen that was still under some type of warranty ended up being replaced because it was cheaper to replace it in the long run rather than rebuild.

[PAULSPEED]

This link will show you more of the weak parts

around the cam chain.

http://www.lnengineering.com/chaintensioner.html

You should phone this company for advice.

Paul

[phillipj]

Mera,

I'm so sad to hear that Porsche is unsympathetic. That's really bad. All I can say is that I have been in your position. It's not an easy choice. I have one piece of advice for the future though... NEVER own a Porsche without a warranty. Consider it insurance cost of owning the car.

I would probaly go with the reman engine as well. That way you'll get a warranty.. Good luck and I'm sorry to hear what happened.:cheers:

[Mera]

:thankyou: to all of you for your help. It is the way the cookie crumbles and I am just dealing with the fallout (literally). In 22 years of car ownership, it is the only engine which has gone on me and it was the one I was least expecting to do it! If I had read all the internet chatter, I would have got the warranty long ago but in this case it is me underwriting it. The car remains awesome :-)

I'll keep you all posted on what happens.

Sam

[Mera]

Just a quick update and question:

My car should be ready Saturday next week. I had to go the rebuild route (for one reason or another) but it is being done at the Prosche dealer by a very experienced technician, who was proud to tell me he had personally rebuilt hundreds of engines from 996's and 997's, Boxters and Cayman's.

Replaced: all timing chains, oil scavenge pump, IMS, all bank 1 exhaust valves.

Question 1: What is the standard engine rebuild time allocated by Porsche? Just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off here.

Question 2, what do you recommend on running in procedure? When/how often does oil need changing over the running in period. Any advice/resources on this appreciated.

Rgds

S

[Mera]

Just a final update from me:

Car came back 2 weeks ago after rebuild and runs really well. Here are my observations,

1. It idles much quieter than before but the idle causes the passenger seat to vibrate a little. I understand this can be normal behavoir but didn't do it previously.

2. The oil pressure is a huge change. once warm, even at 2200rpm, oil pressure is 4.5 and idles around 3

3. The response from the engine is much better than before. Previously the car was responsive but now it is awesome, very punchy and more free reving.

4. Now I notice a whirr between 2k and 3k rpm which I am told is the classic Porsche sound.

I drove down to the south of France and back and have covered 1200 miles and it has just got better and better. I kept it below 4000rpm until lately when I've not been able to resist and pushed it to 5000 in 4th and 5th.

At 300 miles we took a look at the oil filter and changed it. Cutting it open just revealed very fine particles or fillings of metal and bits of gasket sealant. I am planning on changing oil at 2000 miles.

While the engine was apart, I had the clutch, all coil packs and spark plugs changed as well.

Well, it's been an experience, but it's at an end now. Many thanks to you all for you advice.

Best Rgds

Sam