Uh Oh, What Did I Just Drain?

[stef]

A little help requested :)

20k maint, changing oil... something I've done a hundred times on other vehicles:

A few months ago I had read how to change the oil, where the plug was, and what I needed. I dropped by the porsche dealer and got the filter insert, the O ring, and a compression fitting for the bolt. Couldn't find an oil filter wrench to fit, but I figure I can do that later (hopefully, it's easy to change the oil filter without too much issue without draining the oil).

The issue:

The moment I got underneath the car, all the blood must've drained out of my brain, and I loosened the "WTF bolt" and lost some fluid.

What is it, and where do I need to refill it, and with what?

Pic taken near driver rear wheel

[theOne]

 Just a guess it may be the gearbox filler

[RFM]

Looks like one of the timing chain tensioners, hopefully everything is remained in place.

[stef]

If it adds any info, that bolt had a spring on it (which is when I did that wtf moment) but it was cool enough to remove but too hot to screw back in. It was designed to be bled. It doesnt seem like the tranny drain, though, since that is supposed to be on the bottom of the tranny pan.

[Rdward]

If it adds any info, that bolt had a spring on it (which is when I did that wtf moment) but it was cool enough to remove but too hot to screw back in. It was designed to be bled. It doesnt seem like the tranny drain, though, since that is supposed to be on the bottom of the tranny pan.

I agree with RFM, it looks like one of the chain tensioners. From where the picture is taken its hard to tell but looks like the one for the IMS to crank shaft chain.

[JFP in PA]

This is not good…………while your picture is a bit hard to decipher, the item in question appears to be the primary chain tensioner for cylinder bank 1-3. Hopefully, nothing jumped time while you were doing this, but I would not bet on that. Suggest having your cam timing checked with either a Durametric package or a PIWIS system to make sure they are still correctly "allocated". If they are not, you are in for some serious expenditure to fix this…………….. If the M96 has jumped cam timing, it would be a good time to consider the IMS upgrade as you will already be doing most of the same work to get the cams back where they belong.

Good luck with this one…….and be careful about what you loosen in the future…..

[SA321]

removed by SA321

Edited May 28, 2010 by SA321

[JFP in PA]

Ummmmmm...........you are aware that the oil pump is on the front of the engine, next to the water pump, while the item he is refering to is on the back of the engine, near the bellhousing? He undid the primary chain tensioner...................

Edited May 28, 2010 by JFP in PA

[SA321]

hence my disclaimer "please ignore my comment as i know nothing about this engine" . but i ll remove my comment as not to cause confusion

[stef]

This is not good…………while your picture is a bit hard to decipher, the item in question appears to be the primary chain tensioner for cylinder bank 1-3. Hopefully, nothing jumped time while you were doing this, but I would not bet on that. Suggest having your cam timing checked with either a Durametric package or a PIWIS system to make sure they are still correctly "allocated". If they are not, you are in for some serious expenditure to fix this…………….. If the M96 has jumped cam timing, it would be a good time to consider the IMS upgrade as you will already be doing most of the same work to get the cams back where they belong.

It does look like a timing chain tensioner bolt (although at a different angle from what I've seen on pictures at pelican parts), so I guess the oil that drained from it would just be engine oil, which I changed. But apparently, that's the least of my worries.

If it didn't jump timing, sounds like it should be fine. If it did, then I screwed the pooch and will have to replace my soon-to-be-bent valves. Any good way to check this without taking apart the engine? Can the PIWIS tell without starting the engine?

Edited May 28, 2010 by stef

[JFP in PA]

Unfortunately, no, both the PIWIS and Durametric only check it while the engine is running. There is a manual method of checking/setting the cam allocation, but this requires about $600 worth of special tools and some specific knowledge to accomplish, along with several hours shop time. Even then, you could still have some damage if there was internal interference contact. The cams can be slightly out and still allow the engine to run without damage, but if they have moved too much, you have "screwed the pooch" on this one...................

Out four we have seen in this condition, two were fine, two were toast (totally a matter of where the engine had stopped before the tensioners were released), so it is an "even money bet" as to where you are..........good luck!

Edited May 28, 2010 by JFP in PA

[stef]

Thanks for your help, JFP. I've seen your posts before, and was hoping you, Loren, or Toolpants would comment.

[JFP in PA]

Sorry I don't have a better prognostication for you, but I can only go by what I have seen. The M96 is not without its little foibles, and the cam timing is definitely one of them.

[stef]

With your 50% pooch estimate, here's my plan. Maybe you can poke holes in it.

I'm going to remove the plugs, jack up one rear tire (chock front tires), and rotate the free tire with it in gear to see if there's any engine impact. That will turn the engine by hand, which presumably would not damage the valves if the timing was off. If it impacts, I have a shop that'll reset the timing chains for about $350 (plus towing). If it doesn't impact, I'll put the plugs back in and attempt to start it.

[JFP in PA]

With your 50% pooch estimate, here's my plan. Maybe you can poke holes in it.

I'm going to remove the plugs, jack up one rear tire (chock front tires), and rotate the free tire with it in gear to see if there's any engine impact. That will turn the engine by hand, which presumably would not damage the valves if the timing was off. If it impacts, I have a shop that'll reset the timing chains for about $350 (plus towing). If it doesn't impact, I'll put the plugs back in and attempt to start it.

What you are not accounting for is that the cams move relative to the crank and each other once the engine starts and gets oil pressure, and then again as it starts to increase in RPM (hence VarioCam). So you could rotate it by hand, feel nothing, start it and still have a boat anchor. A static rotation test can still give you a false sense of security.

That said, if you really want to try to rotate it, before I'd do the tire bit, remove the front engine cover, and use a socket to rotate the front pulley/dampener BEING SURE TO ONLY TURN THE ENGINE CLOCKWISE AS YOU LOOK AT IT FROM THE FRONT (rotation the other way, even the slightest amount, will lead to disaster)! This way, you have less leverage and would feel any contact sooner. But again, you may feel nothing but still have a potential issue.

I'd suggest leaving it alone, flatbed it to the shop and let them properly check it.

[stef]

I'd suggest leaving it alone, flatbed it to the shop and let them properly check it.

That's what I'm doing. Not going to risk a 50% chance of a $4k rebuild on a $500 bet (towing + service). Thought my odds would be much better, so I'm very glad you responded.

Thanks again.

Edited May 28, 2010 by stef

[JFP in PA]

I'd suggest leaving it alone, flatbed it to the shop and let them properly check it.

That's what I'm doing. Not going to risk a 50% chance of a $4k rebuild on a $500 bet (towing + service). Thought my odds would be much better, so I'm very glad you responded.

Thanks again.

We have seen them run, albeit poorly, one tooth off; but it matters which tooth and in which direction it is off. Cam allocation in the M96 is not for the faint of heart.

In the future, might I suggest not loosening anything until you know what it is? Just a thought...........

[stef]

In the future, might I suggest not loosening anything until you know what it is? Just a thought...........

There's absolutely nothing you can say to make me feel stupider :P

I actually saw a similar bolt about that size and in a similar location, referenced in something else I happened to read recently. I had my 8mm hex handy, I just got confused on a different procedure and as I said, as soon as I got horizontal I made a dumb decision -- which probably isn't the first time, nudge nudge wink wink ;)

[JFP in PA]

In the future, might I suggest not loosening anything until you know what it is? Just a thought...........

There's absolutely nothing you can say to make me feel stupider

I actually saw a similar bolt about that size and in a similar location, referenced in something else I happened to read recently. I had my 8mm hex handy, I just got confused on a different procedure and as I said, as soon as I got horizontal I made a dumb decision -- which probably isn't the first time, nudge nudge wink wink

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, you are not the first one I have seen do this. One person read somewhere that "dirty oil gets trapped in these 'blind holes' and cause IMS problems" and commenced to pull out all the tensioners and even the oil pump pressure regulator to "get rid of the bad oil". His real problems began when the put everything back and tried to start the car; his wallet suddenly got a whole lot easier to sit on just after that.... You live and you learn...............

Edited May 29, 2010 by JFP in PA

[jefla]

stef -- i just had to wish you good luck on this. Let us know. Best, jef

[stef]

stef -- i just had to wish you good luck on this. Let us know. Best, jef

$160 to tow 31 miles

$65 for the mechanic to open it up, check the marks were in place, rotate the engine, and start it up!

All in all, an expensive oil change, but not actually much more than the dealer would charge :D

:clapping:

(thanks RFM, JFP, all)

Edited June 2, 2010 by stef

[danieldolin]

Glad to hear you did not screw things up too bad...

I was thinking about doing my own oil change before storing the car last winter, but it is things like this that will keep me going back to my dealer for such work... Found a local dealer around me that will do the change for $150, which I think is worth it considering it would cost close to $100 just for the parts and fluids.

[phillipj]

stef -- i just had to wish you good luck on this. Let us know. Best, jef

$160 to tow 31 miles

$65 for the mechanic to open it up, check the marks were in place, rotate the engine, and start it up!

All in all, an expensive oil change, but not actually much more than the dealer would charge

(thanks RFM, JFP, all)

Awesome...I like happy endings..