Cv/halfshaft/axle Bolts Coming Loose

[Artee]

Title description pretty much says it all. The Bolts connecting the Differential to the CV Shaft/CV Axle/Halfshaft (Not sure of the correct term for the shaft in a RWD Mid-Engine Vehicle) have come loose twice. The first time took a good long while for a friend and I to diagnose the problem, but after we did, we compressed the suspension, lined up the shaft, and bolted it up. This is where the problem is. I don't currently have an 8MM Allen socket for a torque wrench, or a ratchet, or anything other than a little L shaped metal allen wrench. So, naturally, despite the fact that they were tightened as much as possible, it came loose roughly 30-50 miles later. So, I went out and got some liquid Blue compound threadlock, and tightened em up again as much as possible. I got the car home, and haven't driven it since. So, Since Sunday, it has been sitting.

I don't want to drive it until I can torque down the bolts completely, cause I don't want it to come loose again like it did Sunday at 3 AM and have to sweat bullets trying to figure out who would be awake to give me a ride home. Admittedly, it was absolutely thoughtless of me to drive the car after having just tightened down the bolts with an allen wrench of such light strength, but, my friend who had diagnosed the problem, and who, without which I would have never figured out the problem until taking it to the dealership, essentially demanded I give him a ride to and from a certain place. Feeling obligated, I gave in.

Anyway, I have ordered new bolts, and want to ask anyone if they have a service manual that has the torque specs for these bolts, so that when I get the new ones, I can dibble a bit of liquid threadlock, torque 'em down, potentially add some locking washers, and not have to worry about that joint coming loose again and getting stranded in BFE. Also, if anyone has any other good ideas for how I can permanently get the bolts tightened, I am 100% open to suggestions. After fixing this, I plan to have a German specialist repair shop go over the whole car for me just to make sure there are no other problems, as my friend who helped me with this claimed he saw what looked like some type of fluid leak. Thanks in advance for any and all help.

EDIT: If this is in the wrong forum, as this is not really a suspension problem but more a drivetrain issue, please move it to the correct area.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Artee

[JFP in PA]

Three words: LocTite & Torque wrench.......................

Edited May 18, 2010 by JFP in PA

[1schoir]

The inner CV joint to output flange tightening torque values are as follows:

M8....29 ft/lbs (39 Newton Meters)

M10...60 ft/lbs (81 Newton Meters)

This info is from the Bentley Manual.

Regards, Maurice.

[Artee]

The inner CV joint to output flange tightening torque values are as follows:

M8....29 ft/lbs (39 Newton Meters)

M10...60 ft/lbs (81 Newton Meters)

This info is from the Bentley Manual.

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks Maurice. I remember you from an earlier post. I am now essentially sure that my top problem is the connection in the latch receptacle. Thanks for the torque specs. Big help.

[wvicary]

Clean any oil/grease from the threads on the new bolts and the stub axle flange to be sure the locking compound has a fighting chance to do it's job. Don't use lock washers on the bolts and I would suggest Loctite 262 which is red in colour.

[1schoir]

Thanks Maurice. I remember you from an earlier post. I am now essentially sure that my top problem is the connection in the latch receptacle. Thanks for the torque specs. Big help.

Glad to hear that you have your top problem almost cured! Let me know if you run into any roadblocks.

+1 on WVicary's suggestion to clean the bolts and threads and use the red Loctite. That is one part of the car that absolutely has to be 100%.

Regards, Maurice.

[Artee]

:thankyou: :renntech:

This post became a lot longer than I intended. I will state a sort of "legend" to this "map" of tangents in the Gear-Thinker's tangent of a post that I have now, while sitting out back, late at night, smoking a cigar, taken to a degree and length it was never intended to go. Also, my questions (below, larger font, and red) which are numbered, will have information relating to them numbered in their fields of BOLD, UNDERLINE, and ITALIC

BOLD - this will refer to people and information regarding such questions. As in, so if you just read the question and don't see what I have written in proposing the question and what I know, before thinking of me as a fool asking for silly help. This is something I am likely doing, as it seems many of you have written answers to my questions, some such answers contained information I already knew and should have told you I had known, another reason this post is so long;

UNDERLINE - which will contain unrelated stuff, unrelated questions, humor, and all other miscellaneous editorial stuffs that I wrote;

ITALICS - which contain information not backing the questions, but still relevant to the subject at hand;

{This will be question #1} From what I know, Red Compound is the loctite needing to be heated to over 140 degrees Fahrenheit in order to loosen (as I ask later in this post, if I am wrong about this, please let me know). I can see how this would be a huge benefit in keeping them from loosening, but, should that CV Shaft EVER, and I mean EVER need replacing, I will need a torch, which I do not have easy access to, especially when you consider that if the shaft ever does snap, the joints break, etc., I will be unable to replace it as easily wherever the car breaks down, as I will need to move a torch to the right place. To my knowledge, these tend to have a habit of going bad around 100,000 Miles. I may, also, decide to replace both shafts at higher mileage (currently 20,003 Miles on my 1999 Porsche 986 Boxster, a low mileage garage queen... er... king...)

{This will be question #1} I did consider the Red Stuff, but, essentially, I was worried that it was TOO permanent.

{This will be question #1} I currently feel as if, since I've already purchased the Blue Stuff, it makes the best sense to use it, and, should the bolts (which I just got in from my order today, 8X50MM, Allen Head, the correct size, to my knowledge, for the car) ever come loose again, after being torqued past 60 lb-ft of torque (as I believe Maurice had found in his Bentley shop manual - something I intend on getting my hands on as soon as I get some cash... my birthday is the 27th of May, maybe I just found my present...), I will resort to that final measure of the Red Stuff (compound 262, I believe, as stated by WVicary).

{This will be question #2} Maurice, is there any way you can give me a better idea what the difference between M8 an M10 is? Are they the MM of the head of the bolt? The bolts I needed are 8MM by 50MM. They connected the CV Shaft Joint to the Differential. If there's any way to give me an idea of the which one of the two torque specs I need, that would be super helpful and much appreciated. If not, no biggie. My plan would be that if I CAN torque them to 60 lb-ft, I will, but if anything past 29 lb-ft seems like I'm gonna snap a bolt or mash the threads, I won't push it.

I hate to be a penny-pincher, but I'll definitely hear your thoughts on the subject. Because I'm low on dough, Half-Jewish, and Half Fresh Off the Boat Indian (the combination of which stereotypically forces me to be a real miser when it comes to spending money if I don't have to). In the interest of saving money, I have a concise plan, which I will share;

My plan at the moment is to get both my friend who helped and my car (if he's unavailable, I am able to do this by myself, or using some of the kids at the place I'll do the work at to help if absolutely necessary), bolts, and loctite (blue compound - 242, medium strength according to Henkel - the company who makes loctite, as well as many other industrial, automotive, and other glues, sealants, etc.) to the local high school's auto shop.

It's only a couple miles down the road, and if I spring the little cash required for a socket to fit the old bolts, I can make sure they make it to the shop, where they have three hoists. I plan on going there tomorrow on my way to work, to ask the teacher who runs the Auto Shop, an old family friend, as well as my teacher when I went to that high school, when a good day to be there is. Hopefully, I can do this on all Friday, May 21st, where I will have enough free time from 7 AM until 12 PM, when I need to be at work.

I will also, time and possible payment from my never-paying company's parent company, permitting, do an oil change. Then I will remove the wheel, compress the suspension, and remove the old bolts. As suggested, I have already planned on cleaning the all the threads and bolts, so that the loctite 242, medium strength, blue compound, works at it's best (now, if anyone has used the loctite 262, red compound, heavy strength stuff, and has been easily able to remove it, please, let me know, as I have expressed earlier my hesitancy in using it). After thoroughly cleaning the inside threads and bolts, I will apply loctite 242, and use a torque wrench to get them to the 29 or 60 lb-ft of torque suggested via Maurice from his Bentley Manual. I think it would be best to do the oil change after putting in the new bolts, so that I can allow the loctite to take hold before driving to work.

{This will be Question #3} I am pretty sure that when the bolts start to come loose, they come loose and fall out almost immediately, due to the continuous spinning and vibration. Other than checking ever couple of days if they're tight or not, does anyone have any fresh, new ideas?

The rest of this is about how I have been getting around, but before that, {This will be Question #4} I would like to ask you all one last question; I am considering joining the PCA (Porsche Club of America), and noticed they have some Mid-Ohio track courses, which is something I really want to get into, as I honestly would love to be able to enjoy my car to its fullest extent without fear of prosecution (speeding tickets). Is there anyone who has been or plans on going to some of these Mid-Ohio PCA courses this year? I would love to hear about them. If so, please PM me, and I will also, after posting this ridiculously long post, browse the forums in search of "local" area threads and sections.

By the way, I have been on my 2004 Kawasaki EX250 "Ninja", the older style Ninja 250cc motorcycle, for the past few days, and may continue, as I am low as all hell on money, and at over 50MPG, nothing beats it for commuting off-highway, with no passengers. I got caught for the first time ever in the rain on Monday here in Southeast Michigan, but Tuesday thru Friday was/is supposed to be clear skies, as it was today. I am thoroughly enjoying riding in this weather, 60-80 degrees and sunny. I really am not a great rider. I have spent two of my four (including this one) seasons without spending serious time on the bike. Interestingly, those seasons, when I do ride, I see no justification for why I don't ride as much as possible.

As I assume many of you who read this are/have been riders at some point, you understand what riding is like. I am a late bloomer, in terms of both skill and knowledge in both cars and bikes. I love both, am a fairly decent driver, especially for a teenager (19 in less than a week). My skill in driving has steadily improved, from not knowing how to drive at all to being able to heel-and-toe in less than two years, the concept of which was explained to me by a friend, and I taught myself on my first car.

Sadly, in the seasons I hadn't ridden much, I ended up not progressing as I did in driving. It is my goal, however, to ride as much as I can this year in the interest of becoming a skilled rider. I know my areas of weakness, and oftentimes deliberately pick routes which take me through areas where I need to compensate for such weaknesses. Unfortunately, it feels less special when knowing that it is my only form of transportation these days, but, when both car and bike are up and running, I must say, having to choose between which set of keys I'm taking is a tough but wonderful decision.

Question #1 - Is the Red Compound easy to remove, should I ever need to remove these bolts in the event that the CV Shaft needs to be replaced?

Question #2 - Mainly for Maurice, what do the M8 an M10 references mean, and based on what I know about my bolts, what do I use for the torque specs?

Question #3 - PCA members, specifically those in the Midwest, have any of you ever been to the Mid-Ohio PCA track/driving courses, what do they entail, and if you are in Michigan, Ohio, or Indiana, will you please PM me? Also, I will browse the site at some point to find any, if at all, local sections, threads, etc.

Question #4 - I am just curious if anyone has any other ideas of how I can keep those bolts tight, yes, no?

[stephen wilson]

M8 referrs to the diameter of the bolt shank & threads, not the bolt head, so M8= 8mm ( close to 5/16") , M8= 10mm ( between 3/8" and 7/16") . The thread pitch would be designated after that, such as M8-1.25 . an M8x50mm would be 50mm long from the threaded tip, to where the shank ends and meets the hex portion. ( or head, in the case of a socket head cap screw )

As for the motorcycle, don't go too crazy trying for cornering speed, motorcycles are much less forgiving than cars! Be especially carefull in intersections, or at stop streets, they tend to collect sand/oil. It's easy to take a quick trip to the pavement, ask me how I know! I no longer "push it" thru these types of corners, ramps and twisty roads tend to me much cleaner.

Oh yeah, assuming they are blind bolted (without nuts) , you could go crazy and safety-wire them. With nut/bolt assemblies you can use a drilled bolt with castle nuts. I expect the Blue will be fine, as mentioned.

Edited May 24, 2010 by stephen wilson

[Artee]

M8 referrs to the diameter of the bolt shank & threads, not the bolt head, so M8= 8mm ( close to 5/16") , M8= 10mm ( between 3/8" and 7/16") . The thread pitch would be designated after that, such as M8-1.25 . an M8x50mm would be 50mm long from the threaded tip, to where the shank ends and meets the hex portion. ( or head, in the case of a socket head cap screw )

As for the motorcycle, don't go too crazy trying for cornering speed, motorcycles are much less forgiving than cars! Be especially carefull in intersections, or at stop streets, they tend to collect sand/oil. It's easy to take a quick trip to the pavement, ask me how I know! I no longer "push it" thru these types of corners, ramps and twisty roads tend to me much cleaner.

Oh yeah, assuming they are blind bolted (without nuts) , you could go crazy and safety-wire them. With nut/bolt assemblies you can use a drilled bolt with castle nuts. I expect the Blue will be fine, as mentioned.

I now reply as an embarrassed and ashamed man. As I have not yet fixed my car. The contributors to the lack of drivability are gluttony, lust, and rain. Only one cause is not a sin, but I feel guilt and frustration, directed from me, to me, for having deprived myself of my number one material affection, my 986. I have no excuse. All weekend last weekend, it was beautiful, bright, and perfect weather to snuggle up under my car and do some work. But it was my Birthday weekend, and I was out riding the motorcycle, practicing and improving, stopping only to buy myself a Birthday present.

Then, when it came time to get to work, I realized I had a whole project to do for my Summer Lit class. I am truly and deeply angry at myself for not fixing the car when I had a better opportunity to do so. Another opportunity had presented itself during the week. Foolish as I am, I spent half the time I had set aside to work on the car trying to find the key for the locking lug nut. By the time I found it (right where I first looked, somehow eluding my gaze), it was too late to get the work done and get to the office.

It has been raining all week, and will rain this weekend, so even with all the tools, I had nowhere to work on the car, as the garage has no light unless a flashlight is used, which is exactly what I have planned. I unpacked another box of stuff today, and found a trio of lights that, when purchasing, seemed useful. After owning them for two years, however, I have not used them once. Now, I will have a use for them. They are small LED work lights, shaped kind of like a sea urchin, only with stubby points, at the end of which, resides a magnet. They are really handy, but I have never needed them. I got them at Radio Shack for this exact purpose, the magnetic flashlight that give light in any direction, they work wonderfully as mini shop lights, for use while under a car, hands free. VERY USEFUL! LINK - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3876590

I also got myself a 12oz can of Electronic Parts Cleaner for the threads on the Differential and the Bolts. I thought this would work best as it is designed to clean, but evaporate quickly and easily so that the metal connections are not damaged. To my knowledge, LocTite creates an Ionic Bond between the metals. This bond is at its' strongest when the metals touch each other cleanly. I am worried it may not be aggressive enough to remove any and all grease in the threads though.

As for the riding, usually I've cleared off the rust (not real rust, metaphoric rust, on my riding skill) after the first week of everyday riding, if it has been over a month off the bike. This proved true this May. I'm enjoying the riding very much, improving in the last month to a comfort level I haven't reached before. But I'm building more than just that, I am also improving. I fell my third day of riding ever, four years ago, and saw my mother fall her first week, as she tried to learn to make my stepfather happy. These two events were far from traumatic, but still made me unsettled on the bike. It is only this May that I feel at home on the bike, which I picked up from commuting on the bike. It set the stage for improvement in riding skill, and this year will hopefully see many motorcycle miles and much improvement.

As far as safety wiring my bolts, I don't know if I fully understand what you mean, but I have used castle nuts before and from that can assume what you mean. I know there are a great many permanent fixes to this problem. Ideally, I want the most durable, but least permanent fix. Something that will not come loose of it's own accord, but will still be removable should that need ever arise. I do want to take the car to a German-Specialist repair shop in the area to check out the whole car, to make sure that everything is A-O.K.

If, after I take the car to a shop, these bolts come loose again, I will either blame the shop, if they do anything to it after I fix it, and then repair it using red LocTite (262). If that fails, I will either take it to a Porsche Dealership and bleed money, or use the most permanent fix I can come up with.

Also, is there an Off Topic Section on these forums? I'd like to talk about the two-wheels in relation to Porsches, as in, what type of people who drive these cars ride what type of bikes. Also, people who ride and drive a Porsche will have a superior understanding of both, compared to people who only ride, only drive, or don't care about motorsport, and the appreciation of the road.

[Pinarelloman]

When I did my cv boots, I just cleaned the bolt threads thoroughly and used Loctite blue and torqued them up. That was done about 3,000km ago and no problems. Just follow the advice on here and you will be OK.