DME Overrevs

[Ponch]

Folks,

A bit of an URGENT request:

All set to buy a 2006 997 c2; has everything that I wanted, and more...passed every item on the PPI except these Faulst Codes, which were explained away *** related to a cold start test - PLAUSIBLE?

P0300 Factory Fault Code 507 - Misfire detection Sum total

P0306 Factory Fault Code 513 - Misfire, cylinder 6

And, While NOT a pass/fail, or even addressed by the PI (though requested separately) are the DME Over-rev results - according to the Service manager, these are higher than he'd like to see, but are not an issue; he insists that this techie agrees and that these numbers WOULD NOT pose a threat to the warranty being voided:

Range 1: 9008 1180.2h

Range 2: 2235 1180.2h

Range 3: 652 1173.3h

Range 4: 47 1173.3h

Range 5: 1 1173.3h

From what I read on this BB and on a misc thread on Rennlist:

- Ranges 1-3 are totally acceptable, and even expected

- Range 4 was described as the GRAY ZONE

- Range 5 was that there is likely damage to engine with the potential that the warranty would be voided

I would greatly appreciate ANY feedback, though fact and personal experience are preferred - if you are a Mechanic, Porsche or otherwise, PLEASE WAY IN>

NOTE: The deposit timeframe runs out Wednesday around 1pm, so your timely assistance is requested.

Thank you in advance,

Paul

:o :o :o :o :o

[Loren]

The 6 ranges are:

Range 1: 7300-7500 RPM

Range 2: 7500-7700 RPM

Range 3: 7700-7900 RPM

Range 4: 7900-8400 RPM

Range 5: 8400-9500 RPM

Range 6: 9500-11000 RPM

You really don't need to worry about anything other than ranges 4 to 6.

I would not worry about any of those over revs - likely one missed downshift could do that.

I would get the misfire problem found and fixed.

[Ponch]

The 6 ranges are:

Range 1: 7300-7500 RPM

Range 2: 7500-7700 RPM

Range 3: 7700-7900 RPM

Range 4: 7900-8400 RPM

Range 5: 8400-9500 RPM

Range 6: 9500-11000 RPM

You really don't need to worry about anything other than ranges 4 to 6.

I would not worry about any of those over revs - likely one missed downshift could do that.

I would get the misfire problem found and fixed.

Loren - thx very much for quick response.

Ps. I just heard back from my local Porsche Service Manager (whom I trust), and he confirms your thinking - thanks again

Edited February 3, 2010 by KRIEGLERR

[Hamad]

The 6 ranges are:

Range 1: 7300-7500 RPM

Range 2: 7500-7700 RPM

Range 3: 7700-7900 RPM

Range 4: 7900-8400 RPM

Range 5: 8400-9500 RPM

Range 6: 9500-11000 RPM

You really don't need to worry about anything other than ranges 4 to 6.

I would not worry about any of those over revs - likely one missed downshift could do that.

I would get the misfire problem found and fixed.

Loren,

I over reved my car once last month while tracking it. was coming out of a turn in second gear and was concentrating on getting the exit right and went over 7500 RPM. the car 'chocked' and I changed to third immediately. nothing to be noticed happened to the car (neither performance nor engine light). I am still worried but the car seem to be running just fine.

your advice is appreciated

Hamad

[Loren]

If you were on the gas when you over reved then you can not hurt the engine that way - the rev limiter protects the engine.

Whereas if you were in say 4th gear and downshifted into 2nd gear at a high speed then the wheels/force of the car can over rev the engine and the rev limiter can not stop it - these are potentially engine damaging occurrences and usually show up in ranges 4 to 6. Another way to hurt the engine is to spin the car and car is traveling backwards and you fail to put the clutch in - this can actually run the engine backwards -- not good either.

[dphatch]

If you were on the gas when you over reved then you can not hurt the engine that way - the rev limiter protects the engine.

Whereas if you were in say 4th gear and downshifted into 2nd gear at a high speed then the wheels/force of the car can over rev the engine and the rev limiter can not stop it - these are potentially engine damaging occurrences and usually show up in ranges 4 to 6. Another way to hurt the engine is to spin the car and car is traveling backwards and you fail to put the clutch in - this can actually run the engine backwards -- not good either.

Loren;

Am I reading the data correctly if I interpret it to mean that over revs 1 & 2 occurred at the same time as did 3, 4 & 5 ? Actually it looks as if 3,4 & 5 were all during the same event. I have read the explanation on how to read the data but have forgotten it and am curious about the hours of what look like 2 separate events being the same.

[Loren]

If you were on the gas when you over reved then you can not hurt the engine that way - the rev limiter protects the engine.

Whereas if you were in say 4th gear and downshifted into 2nd gear at a high speed then the wheels/force of the car can over rev the engine and the rev limiter can not stop it - these are potentially engine damaging occurrences and usually show up in ranges 4 to 6. Another way to hurt the engine is to spin the car and car is traveling backwards and you fail to put the clutch in - this can actually run the engine backwards -- not good either.

Loren;

Am I reading the data correctly if I interpret it to mean that over revs 1 & 2 occurred at the same time as did 3, 4 & 5 ? Actually it looks as if 3,4 & 5 were all during the same event. I have read the explanation on how to read the data but have forgotten it and am curious about the hours of what look like 2 separate events being the same.

I do not know that you can tell the event time unless they have different hours on the record.

[dphatch]

If you were on the gas when you over reved then you can not hurt the engine that way - the rev limiter protects the engine.

Whereas if you were in say 4th gear and downshifted into 2nd gear at a high speed then the wheels/force of the car can over rev the engine and the rev limiter can not stop it - these are potentially engine damaging occurrences and usually show up in ranges 4 to 6. Another way to hurt the engine is to spin the car and car is traveling backwards and you fail to put the clutch in - this can actually run the engine backwards -- not good either.

Loren;

Am I reading the data correctly if I interpret it to mean that over revs 1 & 2 occurred at the same time as did 3, 4 & 5 ? Actually it looks as if 3,4 & 5 were all during the same event. I have read the explanation on how to read the data but have forgotten it and am curious about the hours of what look like 2 separate events being the same.

I do not know that you can tell the event time unless they have different hours on the record.

Durametric explains it as follows "Notice the section for "Ignitions (Range 1)." This vehicle shows "13958/917h" which means the vehicle has used the rev-limiter for 13,958 ignitions, the last time being at 917 hours. So this indicates the engine was red-lined often and the last time occurred recently since the engine only has 917 hours. "

While this whole section on the Durametric web page still confuses me, in the case of KRIEGLERR's post it would suggest that at 1171.33 hours of engine operation, 3 different over rev events occurred. In their example ,Durametric wasn't happy with the Range 2 event indicating " This vehicle shows "1/48h" which means the vehicle exceeded the red line one time during 48 hours of operation. This is an example of a possible car a Porsche dealer will not perform warranty work on as this metric indicates abuse."

Can't imagine how they'd feel about range 3,4 & 5 events that the post indicates where evident. Hence my confusion with your and the dealers comments. What am I missing with regards to the data the Durametric is presenting with regard to the over revs ? Have read many posts regarding catastrophic over revs but they usually end catastrophically, if you'll pardon the pun. Everything else appears a little grey when it comes to it won't hurt the engine vs. the engine is a goner. So what would constitute an over rev event that would suggest you don't want the car ?

[Loren]

If you were on the gas when you over reved then you can not hurt the engine that way - the rev limiter protects the engine.

Whereas if you were in say 4th gear and downshifted into 2nd gear at a high speed then the wheels/force of the car can over rev the engine and the rev limiter can not stop it - these are potentially engine damaging occurrences and usually show up in ranges 4 to 6. Another way to hurt the engine is to spin the car and car is traveling backwards and you fail to put the clutch in - this can actually run the engine backwards -- not good either.

Loren;

Am I reading the data correctly if I interpret it to mean that over revs 1 & 2 occurred at the same time as did 3, 4 & 5 ? Actually it looks as if 3,4 & 5 were all during the same event. I have read the explanation on how to read the data but have forgotten it and am curious about the hours of what look like 2 separate events being the same.

I do not know that you can tell the event time unless they have different hours on the record.

Durametric explains it as follows "Notice the section for "Ignitions (Range 1)." This vehicle shows "13958/917h" which means the vehicle has used the rev-limiter for 13,958 ignitions, the last time being at 917 hours. So this indicates the engine was red-lined often and the last time occurred recently since the engine only has 917 hours. "

While this whole section on the Durametric web page still confuses me, in the case of KRIEGLERR's post it would suggest that at 1171.33 hours of engine operation, 3 different over rev events occurred. In their example ,Durametric wasn't happy with the Range 2 event indicating " This vehicle shows "1/48h" which means the vehicle exceeded the red line one time during 48 hours of operation. This is an example of a possible car a Porsche dealer will not perform warranty work on as this metric indicates abuse."

Can't imagine how they'd feel about range 3,4 & 5 events that the post indicates where evident. Hence my confusion with your and the dealers comments. What am I missing with regards to the data the Durametric is presenting with regard to the over revs ? Have read many posts regarding catastrophic over revs but they usually end catastrophically, if you'll pardon the pun. Everything else appears a little grey when it comes to it won't hurt the engine vs. the engine is a goner. So what would constitute an over rev event that would suggest you don't want the car ?

In a perfect world you would like to zero over revs in ranges 4 to 6.

In 99.997% of the cases the over revs in ranges 1 and 2 were handled by the rev limiter and (IMHO) meaningless.

[White987S]

Paul, there is NO way I would buy that car. It's been beat. There are sooooo many Porsches for sale, why deal with a car like this and its history? Pass. Keep looking. There will be another, better, car to purchase.

[1schoir]

....

While this whole section on the Durametric web page still confuses me, in the case of KRIEGLERR's post it would suggest that at 1171.33 hours of engine operation, 3 different over rev events occurred. In their example ,Durametric wasn't happy with the Range 2 event indicating " This vehicle shows "1/48h" which means the vehicle exceeded the red line one time during 48 hours of operation. This is an example of a possible car a Porsche dealer will not perform warranty work on as this metric indicates abuse."

Can't imagine how they'd feel about range 3,4 & 5 events that the post indicates where evident. Hence my confusion with your and the dealers comments. What am I missing with regards to the data the Durametric is presenting with regard to the over revs ?

.....

dp:

The confusion with the Durametric information you are interpreting from Durametric's web site may be due to the fact that there are two completely separate Overrev Schemes that apply, depending on the year of your car.

The earlier cars have only 2 ranges, whereas the later cars have 6 ranges.

Range 2 overrevs in the earlier cars are the ones that are not acceptable.

On the later cars, it's ranges 5 and 6.

Regards, Maurice.

[quinby1]

I agree with white987....I would pass this one up...number of ignitions at rev limit show hard use...now we all "drive" these machines hard, but hopefully not carelessly....this one looks like careless disregard...quinby1 B)

[dphatch]

....

While this whole section on the Durametric web page still confuses me, in the case of KRIEGLERR's post it would suggest that at 1171.33 hours of engine operation, 3 different over rev events occurred. In their example ,Durametric wasn't happy with the Range 2 event indicating " This vehicle shows "1/48h" which means the vehicle exceeded the red line one time during 48 hours of operation. This is an example of a possible car a Porsche dealer will not perform warranty work on as this metric indicates abuse."

Can't imagine how they'd feel about range 3,4 & 5 events that the post indicates where evident. Hence my confusion with your and the dealers comments. What am I missing with regards to the data the Durametric is presenting with regard to the over revs ?

.....

dp:

The confusion with the Durametric information you are interpreting from Durametric's web site may be due to the fact that there are two completely separate Overrev Schemes that apply, depending on the year of your car.

The earlier cars have only 2 ranges, whereas the later cars have 6 ranges.

Range 2 overrevs in the earlier cars are the ones that are not acceptable.

On the later cars, it's ranges 5 and 6.

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks, that helps.

[samuel.mercer]

Dunno if this helps, but here's my overrev information, car being MY06 997 C2 with 75k kilometers, this includes Nurburgring a few times...

Number of ignitions range 1 1565 / 1308h

Number of ignitions range 2 43 / 871h

Number of ignitions range 3 6 / 600h

Number of ignitions range 4 0 / 0h

Number of ignitions range 5 0 / 0h

Number of ignitions range 6 0 / 0h

Operating hours counter 1374

[PutPut6]

Overrevs over range 1 can void your warranty!!! When we have intermediate shaft cars that come in, that's the first thing we check. Do not believe what the service manager tells you, he doesn't decide if it's warrantable, Porsche does.

[sidicks]

Overrevs over range 1 can void your warranty!!! When we have intermediate shaft cars that come in, that's the first thing we check. Do not believe what the service manager tells you, he doesn't decide if it's warrantable, Porsche does.

That has to be rubbish, if you are talking about the ranges on the 911 (997)?

Rev ranges 1,2 and 3 are still lower than the red line, so there would be a serious issue if taking your car up to, but not over, the red line could prevent warranty.

This is relevant to me, as my car his recently passed its warranty check, having been referred to Porsche GB, due to some concern about range 4 and 5 incidents.

My understanding, consistent with what has been posted above is that ranges 1-3 are normally fine, 4 is a grey area (and it will depend on exactly how many ignitions have occured in range 4), and rev ranges 5 or 6 would require further investigation. Incidents within the last 50 hours are of most concern.

For what it's worth, my car had an additional inspection which showed no problems, and hence my warranty was granted. However, it turns out that my car had just 1 incident in range 4 and 1 in range 5 and, as it would be physically impossible for the engine to go through rev range 4 into range 5 (7,900 rpm - 8,400 rpm) in just one ignition (roughly 0.07seconds), this must be a computer error.

I've taken this up with Porsche GB.

In response to the original poster, rev range 4 and 5 are more of a concern, and although it would be possible to do an additional inspection to verify whether there is any swarf in the oil etc indicating possible damage, personally I would look for another car, as there are plenty around!

:)

Sidicks