Looking for a better oil?

[TopGun2000]

Castrol Syntec 5W-40 is pretty good, but not as good as their 10W-40 from what we have seen.

would you mind sharing some analysis results? ;)

Anything specific you would like to know (e.g.: TBN, ability to stay in grade, etc.)?

Maybe ZDDP, Moly, Calc levels, TBN, and grade stability? :D

OK, here we go with a couple of caveats:

Our database has a lot more Syntec 10W-40 data than 5W-40 as the 10W product is used by most of our clients. That said, we do have a fair number of 5W analysis. The data was screened to limit the analysis to cars that see mainly street driving, and were not suffering issues (high fuel dilution, coolant infiltration, etc.). Oil analysis was all done in a local lab that handles both oil and fuel analysis.

Virgin oil comparison – Other than the obvious viscosity differences, for the most part the 5W-40 and 10W-40 looked similar with a couple of exceptions: The TBN value was notably higher in the 5W product (~12.5 vs. 10.8), as was the calcium levels (1585 PPM vs. 1205). Moly levels were similar between both grades, with the 10W product being a bit higher (38 PPM), as were its phosphorus levels (943 PPM), which would be expected as Castrol promotes the 10W product as their premium full synthetic for “higher mileage” vehicles.

3,000 mile interval – Small but subtly different changes between the two grades, slightly higher drop off in TBN values for the 5W (both grades had the similar TBN values even though the 5W started higher, indicating higher degradation in the additive package), along with a drop in 100C viscosity for the 5W. Both products are staying “in grade”, but changes are larger for the 5W product.

6,000 mile interval – Differences between the grades are more noticeable. The 5W product TBN has lost over 60% of its starting value (it is beyond the point at which it should be changed), and the 100C viscosity drop in much higher in the 5W product. The 5W product is on its way out of “grade”. The 10W product still maintains a reasonably high TBN, better high temp viscosity; and remains “in grade”.

7,500 mile interval – The 5w product is well out of grade, TBN values are very low, as is the high temp viscosity. The 10W product has also suffered a bit, but is still “in grade, with a TBN value of 4.8. 100C viscosity is showing signs of dropping, but nowhere near that of the 5W product.

A couple of observations: Obviously, the Syntec 10W-40 appears to be a better choice than the 5W-40. While not intended to do so, this comparison also seems to add credence to the old adage about not depending upon a multi-weight oil with more than a thirty point viscosity spread………….

very good analysis! i assume the wear rates should be similar in the same engine using either syntec 5w-40 or 10w-40.

however porsche only recommends 0w-xx, 5w-xx grades. don you know of any particular reasons not to use 10w-xx? how about syntec 5w-50 which seems to be widely available as well and more stable than 5w-40?

Porsche (like many OEM’s) “recommend” oils based upon multiple parameters including things like gas mileage and the life of the catalytic converters. While one would like to believe that engine wear and life are taken into account as well, it is impossible to determine what weighting they were given in the OEM determination of what to recommend, which is why we do not place a lot of faith in what Porsche “recommends”. Add into the mix the fact that oils constantly come and go from their preferred list, and you are left scratching your head.

We base our oil selection on collected data and performance history. From what we have seen, the M96 does well on Syntec 10W-40 in terms of engine wear and longevity. Gas mileage and cat life can fall where it may, but the engines have to survive. My shop is in a cold winter climate area (currently about 20F), and we see triple digit heat in the summer; and we have a lot of cars running 10W-40 year round without issues, mine included.

At the end of the day, the greater the spread between the oils rated weights places a greater load on the additive packages in synthetic oils. While the base stocks are important, wide viscosity spreads typically are totally dependent upon the additives, and the additive packages are susceptible to break down from a variety of sources. This is why you see postings about wide viscosity (e.g.: 5W-50) spread oils not living very long lives or standing up well under high loads.

Very good. I will give syntec 10w-40 a shot in my v8 turbo, maybe redline 10w-40 as well, followed by some UOAs

[DUTCH VanAtlanta]

"UOAs" ??

[goldenwarrior1]

I hate to toss a grenade into this very informative discussion but does any one have an opinion on AMSOIL? They have a 5W-40 European Engine Oil that claims to meet ACEA requirements.

AMSOIL European Formula

[JFP in PA]

"UOAs" ??

Used oil analysis..................

[JFP in PA]

I hate to toss a grenade into this very informative discussion but does any one have an opinion on AMSOIL? They have a 5W-40 European Engine Oil that claims to meet ACEA requirements.

AMSOIL European Formula

I really don't know much about Amsoil as their multi tiered marketing and distribution system turns off most shops; we prefer dealing with local or regional distributors that stock a lot of products (and brands) and offer reasonable discounts for commercial operations that buy in volume.

That said, I would be circumspect about their claims as their site says their products “surpass the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European and North American gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following worldwide specifications”:

• API SM/CF

• ACEA C3

• ACEA A3/B3

• ACEA A3/B4

• BMW LL-04

• Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51

• Porsche

• Saab

• Volvo

• Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01

• DaimlerChrysler MS-10725

This looks like more “our marketing department recommends” verbiage to me as they do not actually state they are ACEA rated (meaning they have paid to have their oils tested in an independent lab under ACEA regimen, and agreed to “freeze” the formulation once it has successfully passed. ACEA only rates finished products, not ingredients, and any change, no matter how slight, requires re-testing to obtain their rating). They also list Porsche and other OEM’s, which would make their product a big seller if it were true, but I have never seen their products listed on the OEM’s “recommended oils” lists for any of the brands they mentioned.

As for ACEA, I’d shoot an email to the manufacturer (not one of their hoard of “distributors”) and ask them to tell you when (date) they received ACEA, and for what products, and under which “oil sequence” (ACEA term for their test specs). You can also contact ACEA and ask them if Amsoil participates in their program, and what ratings they have obtained. Be prepared to wait for a response from ACEA, they tend to take their time answering. I’d be willing to bet all the responses you receive will be negative…………..

Edited January 23, 2010 by JFP in PA

[Ignited]

I hate to toss a grenade into this very informative discussion but does any one have an opinion on AMSOIL? They have a 5W-40 European Engine Oil that claims to meet ACEA requirements.

AMSOIL European Formula

I stated earlier that I have used Amsoil 20W-50 in my 300hp Nissan turbo motor, but I did not say how long. I have used it for over 10 years now ( I am not a distributor...I order directly from the warehouse) and am very happy with it. I also use the 0W-30 in my MGB and have used it for close to 8 years now. I am totally sold on their products, especially the oil filters, as well as Wix, but that is another thread for another time. I am going to switch to Amsoil for my CTT unless I find some damning evidence of catastrophic failures. Motul is great but very expensive and harder to find in DFW than Amsoil. I have not found a direct shipper for Motul. I should also state that the only reason I strayed away from Amsoil is that I won a $50 Motul gift certificate at a local car show.

Tim in Ft Worth

[wvicary]

ACEA rated (meaning they have paid to have their oils tested in an independent lab under ACEA regimen, and agreed to “freeze” the formulation once it has successfully passed. ACEA only rates finished products, not ingredients, and any change, no matter how slight, requires re-testing to obtain their rating).

Do you have any proof of this?

[goldenwarrior1]

JFP,

Thanks for the response. I will see what they have to say. I have been using thier products in all my vehicles for close to 10 years and have had no issues. 156K on my Honda and of the half dozen vehicles I have sold, all were run over 100K on AMSOIL. But those were all daily drivers/work vehicles and not high performance engines. Would be curious to see some official test results on a track engine running AMSOIL.

R/GW B)

[JFP in PA]

ACEA rated (meaning they have paid to have their oils tested in an independent lab under ACEA regimen, and agreed to “freeze” the formulation once it has successfully passed. ACEA only rates finished products, not ingredients, and any change, no matter how slight, requires re-testing to obtain their rating).

Do you have any proof of this?

Beside the number times it has been posted on various sites, like BITOG; if you do a search for the current ACEA oil sequences, you can find a large PDF file that lists their requirements for complying.............I should warn you that, as is the case with most European community legal documents, it is a bit of a ponderous read, and references several agreements and protocols, which you will also need to read to get the full picture…..

Excerpts from the most recent sequences:

“ACEA requires that any claims for Oil performance to meet these sequences must be based on credible data and controlled tests in accredited test laboratories. ACEA requires that engine performance testing used to support a claim of compliance with these ACEA sequences should be generated according to the European Engine Lubricants Quality Management System (EELQMS), but ACEA reserves the right to define alternatives in exceptional cases. EELQMS which is described in the ATIEL Code of Practice1, addresses product development testing and product performance documentation, and involves the registration of all candidate and reference oil testing and defines the compliance process. Compliance with the ATIEL Code of Practice is mandatory for any claim to meet the requirements of the 2008 issue of the ACEA sequences. Therefore, ACEA requires that claims against the ACEA oil sequences can only be made by oil companies or oil distributors who have signed the EELQMS oil marketers’ Letter of Conformance.”

.

In addition, when a marketing type from RP started claiming that they had ACEA ratings because RP used “ACEA approved ingredients” on a Landrover website, someone from ACEA actually replied with the ACEA sequences requirements, noting that “ACEA only rates finished products, not ingredients” and that “any change in a rated formulation requires resubmission for independent testing in order to regain compliance.”

I think you are beginning to see why ACEA is a bit more credible than the API standards…………..

[JFP in PA]

JFP,

Thanks for the response. I will see what they have to say. I have been using thier products in all my vehicles for close to 10 years and have had no issues. 156K on my Honda and of the half dozen vehicles I have sold, all were run over 100K on AMSOIL. But those were all daily drivers/work vehicles and not high performance engines. Would be curious to see some official test results on a track engine running AMSOIL.

R/GW B)

As I mentioned earlier, I have no direct experience with Amsoil products. I'm sure they produce a reasonable quality oil that will do fine in many applications. I just am circumspect about their oils because of their strange statements that "recommend" their oils for applications that require ACEA. If you have ACEA, why not just say it? And if they don't have it, they are not unlike other small oil compounders that use "legalese" to try to get around the fact...............