61K Miles with CPO or 33K Miles without?

[thx1138jtx2]

Great forum. I posted a question last week comparing deals on 2 996's and got some very pointed suggestions and advice. I really appreciate that.

I'm looking for a 911 to use mostly as a daily driver, maybe occasionally taking it to a track for some fun. Ten years ago I had a Boxster but give it up after my girls were born (best thing that ever happened to me). I have been missing that power, the handling and everything else that comes with a Porsche, especially the community of people who don't just look at cars as appliances that just take you from point a to point b.

Anyway, here is another comparison question on 2003 996 C2 Coupes:

Car 1: 2003, 33K miles, 6 Spd, Silver/Black, lightly optioned (18", that's about it), no service records, asking price $32,000. (Actually there are a few cars with similar mileage/price listed online)

Car 2: 2003, CPO car, 61K miles, 6 Spd, Grey/Black, options (PSM, heated/pwr seats, Xenon, Auto dim mirror, 18"), asking price $31,800. The dealer has all service records from 14K miles until now, just did the 60K service, new breaks on the back, new tires on the front, and it is CPO so comes with 2 yr, 100K mile warranty.

So, which one would be your choice? And what about the price, in talking to the dealers it seems both would have some room to negotiate. What in your opinion would be a fair price?

:renntech:

[jgriffin56]

Tough decision. lst you have a car with 10,000 miles per year, and fairly optioned. Then you have a car with 5K per year, sparsely optioned. As far as warranty, you can negoigate with the dealer for an aftermarket warranty. Over $30K for each is a little high (in this economic market). Check AutoTrader for the same car and see what the asking price is for a 03 C2. I am a little suprised that there are no service records on the one car. Most dilligent Porsche owners keep all their records on their cars. Several questions you have to answer. Do you like the Grey or Silver? Optioned or sparsely optioned? Service records show dilligence, without them you know nothing. What about other options, new tires vs tires?), new brakes, vs what brakes(?), rims on each car ( some cost thousands of dollars for a set). If you go with the low mileage, no service record, you definitely need to get a thorough independent inspection of the car.( both cars would be a good idea) RMS and IMS replacement on each car? Really, when it comes down to it a poorly serviced low mileage car is likely to bring trouble. at least you have a CPO for 2 years on the other car, not bad for an 03. ANd truly 60K is really not a lot of miles, about 10K per year is average for most cars. Final word: get a independent inspection and a CarFax on each before deciding.

[thx1138jtx2]

Carfax is clean, the 61K car had a Autocheck report too, also looks fine.

Is an independent PPI still necessary on a CPO car? I thought one of the advantages of getting a CPO car was that it would be "inspected" already.

John

[whall]

Is car number 2 being offered for sale by Porsche dealer? The reason I ask is that a Porsche CPO warranty cannot be originated by anyone other than a Porsche dealer; and the CPO warranty cannot be transferred by anyone to a new owner (you) except by a Porsche dealer or the private owner of a CPO'ed car (for a $50.00 transfer fee, in the case of the private owner). This means that a Lexus dealer or the "Auto Mart" dealer cannot advertise (or sell) a previously CPO'ed Porsche with a valid CPO warranty.

If number 1 car is being offered for sale by a Porsche dealer, I would include a CPO warranty in my negotiations. The CPO warranty itself costs the dealer less than $2,000.00....at least last year it did. (The dealer would have to cover the cost of the CPO inspection and any work/parts neded to bring the car up to "spec" and that might have an impact on your negotiated final price.) And, as of August of 2008, if I recall correctly, the CPO warranty was changed to more nearly mirror the orpginal new car warranty. Stories about dissatisfied after market warranty customers abound here and on other forums.

www.porsche.com/usa/pre-owned-vehicles/approved/warranty/

Oh, I'm not affiliated with Porsche....except for having owned two CPO'ed cars.

Bill

[thx1138jtx2]

Is car number 2 being offered for sale by Porsche dealer? The reason I ask is that a Porsche CPO warranty cannot be originated by anyone other than a Porsche dealer; and the CPO warranty cannot be transferred by anyone to a new owner (you) except by a Porsche dealer or the private owner of a CPO'ed car (for a $50.00 transfer fee, in the case of the private owner). This means that a Lexus dealer or the "Auto Mart" dealer cannot advertise (or sell) a previously CPO'ed Porsche with a valid CPO warranty.

If number 1 car is being offered for sale by a Porsche dealer, I would include a CPO warranty in my negotiations. The CPO warranty itself costs the dealer less than $2,000.00....at least last year it did. (The dealer would have to cover the cost of the CPO inspection and any work/parts neded to bring the car up to "spec" and that might have an impact on your negotiated final price.) And, as of August of 2008, if I recall correctly, the CPO warranty was changed to more nearly mirror the orpginal new car warranty. Stories about dissatisfied after market warranty customers abound here and on other forums.

www.porsche.com/usa/pre-owned-vehicles/approved/warranty/

Oh, I'm not affiliated with Porsche....except for having owned two CPO'ed cars.

Bill

Car 2 is offered by a Porsche dealer, Car 1 is not. The saleman I spoke to told me CPO is exactly like a new car warranty, everything covered under new car is covered under CPO. I looked at posts here with CPO info and it looks like after 8/2008 it is pretty comprehensive.

John

[Loren]

Is car number 2 being offered for sale by Porsche dealer? The reason I ask is that a Porsche CPO warranty cannot be originated by anyone other than a Porsche dealer; and the CPO warranty cannot be transferred by anyone to a new owner (you) except by a Porsche dealer or the private owner of a CPO'ed car (for a $50.00 transfer fee, in the case of the private owner). This means that a Lexus dealer or the "Auto Mart" dealer cannot advertise (or sell) a previously CPO'ed Porsche with a valid CPO warranty.

If number 1 car is being offered for sale by a Porsche dealer, I would include a CPO warranty in my negotiations. The CPO warranty itself costs the dealer less than $2,000.00....at least last year it did. (The dealer would have to cover the cost of the CPO inspection and any work/parts neded to bring the car up to "spec" and that might have an impact on your negotiated final price.) And, as of August of 2008, if I recall correctly, the CPO warranty was changed to more nearly mirror the orpginal new car warranty. Stories about dissatisfied after market warranty customers abound here and on other forums.

www.porsche.com/usa/pre-owned-vehicles/approved/warranty/

Oh, I'm not affiliated with Porsche....except for having owned two CPO'ed cars.

Bill

Car 2 is offered by a Porsche dealer, Car 1 is not. The saleman I spoke to told me CPO is exactly like a new car warranty, everything covered under new car is covered under CPO. I looked at posts here with CPO info and it looks like after 8/2008 it is pretty comprehensive.

John

You can download the Porsche CPO Brochure with full descriptions here

[jworden]

Car 1: 2003, 33K miles, 6 Spd, Silver/Black, lightly optioned (18", that's about it), no service records, asking price $32,000. (Actually there are a few cars with similar mileage/price listed online)

I recently purchased a 1997 mercedes with no records - I phoned the local mercedes service dept, gave them the VIN and he read off a bunch of service items. Later I drove over to the dealer and he handed me a complete printout from when the car was new. I already owned the car at this time but I don't believe that the service rep cared. The report included data from several dealers. Don't know if a Porsche dealer would do the same.

[jgriffin56]

If you go only by what the dealership says, you are assuming that the car has only been serviced by a dealer, since independents do not subscribe to the recorded service history kept by the dealer. I personally have had some service done by the dealer, but had my brakes and my 30K done by a very reputable local independent highly recommended by my chapter of the PCA. However, since this is my 4th Porsche, I always keep my service records for everything done or bought for the car. I cannot express how important it is to keep impecable records on your car when it come to resale. To me, when i hear of people that do not keep service records, it shows a certain disrespect for the Porsche brand and to a potential buyer at resale time. However, I do understand that some dealers will throw away or "lose" the records somewhere in the trade-in/resale process.

[70Sixter]

No service records would scare hell out of me.

[perryinva]

No doubt at all in my mind, I'd go with the CPO car, (assuming cosmetics/paint/etc are close to equal) but still work on that price. More like $27-28, highest. A car with too few mile after 7 years can almost be more of an issue as the 996 gotchas (RMS, IMS, coolant tank split, etc) may not have manifested themselves yet. On the 61k car, if they were going to happen, they are more like to already have. Or if they did, they've been replaced. PSM, heated seats, Xenons, autodim are worth thousands, especially at resale time. Porsche CPO is excellent. Aftermarket warranties are very touch and go. Go with the CPO, for sure.

[thx1138jtx2]

No doubt at all in my mind, I'd go with the CPO car, (assuming cosmetics/paint/etc are close to equal) but still work on that price. More like $27-28, highest. A car with too few mile after 7 years can almost be more of an issue as the 996 gotchas (RMS, IMS, coolant tank split, etc) may not have manifested themselves yet. On the 61k car, if they were going to happen, they are more like to already have. Or if they did, they've been replaced. PSM, heated seats, Xenons, autodim are worth thousands, especially at resale time. Porsche CPO is excellent. Aftermarket warranties are very touch and go. Go with the CPO, for sure.

Thank you, those were my thoughts as well. I researched a bunch of extended warranty companies, every one of them have some kind of horror evil stories and pretty expensive. Carchex had the best feedback and would have cost $3314.00 for 2 year 24,000 miles. To me CPO is worth more than that.

So I pulled the trigger, got the car for $28K. I am just finishing up the paperwork now. Probably not the greatest deal in the world but I think it is fair. It'll take about 10 days for the car to get here. I would have loved to drive it back but would have had to pay tax on it twice. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Thanks for everyone's feedback!

[perryinva]

Good choice, make sure you post some pics. Sure better than the price they were asking. Its a LOT of high performance car for that money. The best deal out there, I think. I love mine. There are a bunch of little "gotchas" that you will want/need/should do soon after you get it. The kind of stuff even the CPO dealership will rarely, if ever address. There is excellent advice on this site (and Rennlist) on how to do most of them. Off the top of my head:

1. Radiator/AC condenser clean out. Every single person that's bought a used 996/997 has found a ton of leaves/trash/sand, butts, etc up against both rads and between the rads and condensers. On my car, which only had like 30k when I got it, the bottom 6 rows of cooling fins were completely blocked. You have to pull off the front bumper cover to clean them out, as a ton of leaves get wedged between the rads and condenser and block airflow completey and cause corrosion/perforation and possible overheating. The small drain at the rear of the duct gets clogged with sand, so it can stay wet in there. I vaccum out those areas every time (before) I wash my car. Always something in there.

2. Check those plastic underpans. The front 2/3s of the car has underbody airflow improvers/shields. They get hit and break. You don't want them flopping around and catching a stray branch.

3. Check the brake ducts. They often get sheared off. I upgraded mine for the same cost (like $20) to the larger, I think GT ones. There are threads. Keeps your brakes cooler.

4. Check your AOS (air oil separater). Just pull the rubber boot off the throttle intake, and make sure there is no oil right after the throttle plate. You'd much rather replace it on your own terms with CPO if required. A 2003 may already have the updated one.

5. Take the wheels off and do a VERY close visual inspection for flat spots and cracks on the inner lip edges. Those 18"s, especially the rears, are pretty easily cracked or flat spotted if impacted when air pressure is low. They always crack on the inside lip, where it is weaker, and it can't be seen when they are on the car.

I'm sure there are others. Surf and ask. This place can be a goldmine of information.

Thank you, those were my thoughts as well. I researched a bunch of extended warranty companies, every one of them have some kind of horror evil stories and pretty expensive. Carchex had the best feedback and would have cost $3314.00 for 2 year 24,000 miles. To me CPO is worth more than that.

So I pulled the trigger, got the car for $28K. I am just finishing up the paperwork now. Probably not the greatest deal in the world but I think it is fair. It'll take about 10 days for the car to get here. I would have loved to drive it back but would have had to pay tax on it twice. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Thanks for everyone's feedback!

Edited January 26, 2010 by perryinva

[thx1138jtx2]

Thanks for the advise. Traveling this week and waiting for the car to show up. Will post pics when I can.

:renntech: